How are these Great Beings explained?

[loverofhumanity]

Do you believe them?

I take into full consideration their views and try and learn from everyone. Is that what you mean?

 

[loverofhumanity]

They shouldn't need to give the option to decide.

What would happen if they never do?

Then it will never be established.because everything depends on people's wishes and agreement.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I take into full consideration their views and try and learn from everyone. Is that what you mean?

No. When you take someone else's views into consideration as being valid, you see other people's beliefs as right and you want to make sense of them as correct ... because you consider they know more about their beliefs than you do.

You don't change your views just in all of our talk you'd have to consider my and other people's views as valid rather than explain what you believe repeatedly.

It's an act of respect. Yes, you disagree but in my opinion I don't understand the disagreement.

For example, if there was a color that was purple and I saw white you and you saw gray, we can agree and disagree all we want. However, if someone came to us who painted the color and knows what that the color is purple who am I and you to say otherwise?

Unless A. We feel that person is lying (which is okay to admit) B. You accept what you believe is a belief not a fact or C. Take that person's fact into consideration beyond your disagreements.

If you can't do either of these, then I can't figure out your motive beyond your saying "I believe this. I disagree."

We know that... but the logic of it I don't get.

If you understand the analogy.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Then it will never be established.because everything depends on people's wishes and agreement.

So this comes to my point... you're not giving other religious people credit for their effort towards spiritual and greater peace.

Is that true?

 

[loverofhumanity]

No. When you take someone else's views into consideration as being valid, you see other people's beliefs as right and you want to make sense of them as correct ... because you consider they know more about their beliefs than you do.

You don't change your views just in all of our talk you'd have to consider my and other people's views as valid rather than explain what you believe repeatedly.

It's an act of respect. Yes, you disagree but in my opinion I don't understand the disagreement.

For example, if there was a color that was purple and I saw white you and you saw gray, we can agree and disagree all we want. However, if someone came to us who painted the color and knows what that the color is purple who am I and you to say otherwise?

Unless A. We feel that person is lying (which is okay to admit) B. You accept what you believe is a belief not a fact or C. Take that person's fact into consideration beyond your disagreements.

If you can't do either of these, then I can't figure out your motive beyond your saying "I believe this. I disagree."

We know that... but the logic of it I don't get.

If you understand the analogy.

Thanks for explaining a bit more Carlita.

Ok then. First we are all not perfect and make mistakes no matter whether we are a cleaner or professor or a specialist or a layman. It is human to err.

I am the same. How can I judge you to be right or wrong as my own judgement can at any time be faulty because I am only human like you?

So believing fully in the opinions of people who can make mistakes at anytime because they are human is not rock sold. But I am human also so how do I know my judgement will be right?

What is the yardstick for determining the truth of something?

How do we distinguish between truth and error?

We each judge each other's beliefs by our own beliefs. But what if our own beliefs are wrong?

How will we know? Who painted the truth? I certainly didn't and nobody here painted the truth? So if you're not the painter how can you know if someone has the truth or not?

The major religions didn't paint their truth. They got it from their Founder. You ask them. People who don't believe in anything still don't paint the truth.

Everyone of us just paints what we 'think' is the truth. As minds are diverse who is right? How are we to judge another's belief?

Most people use a set of core principles by which they determine the truth or falsehood of something.

Christians will use the Bible, Muslims the Quran. Baha'is refer everything to the Writings of Baha'u'llah and our Central Figures.

We have our own minds but how do we know we have not made a mistake?

But somebody must know the truth just who is it? We live in an agreement of confusion where everyone says he has the truth and the other guy doesn't.

So we go our own way and see what happens. In time the sun rises. In time the truth will be evident. But now even if I had the truth I would be seen as an imposter and liar.

So let's wait and see over time what happens and how the truth reveals itself.

 

[Vinayaka]

That's for the people to decide.

In your best guess, what do you think will happen?

 

[Vinayaka]

The tree of humanity includes all people, all humanity.

Why an analogy? Why not just say humanity includes all people?

 

[loverofhumanity]

In your best guess, what do you think will happen?

I think we'll evolve into a flourishing and prosperous world civilisation.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Ok then. First we are all not perfect and make mistakes no matter whether we are a cleaner or professor or a specialist or a layman. It is human to err.

I am the same. How can I judge you to be right or wrong as my own judgement can at any time be faulty because I am only human like you?

So believing fully in the opinions of people who can make mistakes at anytime because they are human is not rock sold. But I am human also so how do I know my judgement will be right?

Do you trust your own and others judgement to be right without an outside input?

What is the yardstick for determining the truth of something?

In my belief, ourselves, our environment, and our family in spirit. Nothing sacred and no god. No sacred books and no prophets. It's experience and observation. It's trusting our own expressions and who we are as people. In my field, it is how I express myself through my art and so forth. There is an underlying guidance from my mind that judges what I should an shouldn't do. Unfortunately, societal laws shape that when it comes to legal and social matters.

It comes from ourselves.

There's a quote I remember that says "in the end, we die in our own arms." Some people can't trust themselves as the judge but at the end, even our interpretations and experiences with "god" are through our perceptions and interpretations of our "sacred" scripture. It comes from us.

How do we distinguish between truth and error?

Depends. If you depend on people who passed away for truth, that's your yardstick. Other people on this thread say it's more valuable to look toward to living with higher spiritual authority and experience. While many thinking of their gut feeling and experiences to determine right and wrong. Others follow the law and/or family norms.

Again, you're making everything be one true-one truth when there are many trees. I look outside my window and literally see more than one tree. If we base life on analogies, then that's how I'd see it. I see many trees that means I see many truths. More than respecting diversity but considering the cores of the diversity as their individual truths.

We each judge each other's beliefs by our own beliefs. But what if our own beliefs are wrong?

Wrong by whose terms? If you don't trust yourself, then of course you'd think in right/wrong terms. Not all people see it that way. When you take people's view into consideration, you try to put yourself in the other person's shoes. Do you want to know or understand what it is like seeing life that has not right/wrong terms?

How will we know? Who painted the truth? I certainly didn't and nobody here painted the truth? So if you're not the painter how can you know if someone has the truth or not?

Some people love the painter more than the art; others love the art more than the painter. I see the art not the painter. Others see the painter rather than the art. Some say both but then lean towards the painter; others vis versa.

This is where open mindedness comes from. Change your perception. Do you need to know the artist? Why do you think there is an artist to begin with? What clues lead you specifically to believe there is an artist without assumptions of what exists in front of you?

The major religions didn't paint their truth. They got it from their Founder. You ask them. People who don't believe in anything still don't paint the truth.

Bahai is not excluded from this. However, not all religions are prophet-religions. Hinduism is a good example as been told to you many times. Do you take that view into consideration as valid or not?

Everyone of us just paints what we 'think' is the truth. As minds are diverse who is right? How are we to judge another's belief?

Our expressions are the truth. We disagree heavily here. We don't judge. We don't take away traditions, rituals, and dogma. We don't build a new system. We let people express their own truths. Work with them not build a new system for them.

Most people use a set of core principles by which they determine the truth or falsehood of something.

Remember, most people is not all people; and most people do not define all people. Generalizations is the mother of all evils.

Christians will use the Bible, Muslims the Quran. Baha'is refer everything to the Writings of Baha'u'llah and our Central Figures.

Which is fine. I use my expressions. Buddhist use the Dharma and their practice. Hindu use their practice (it's not a people-of-the-book faiths) and so forth.

We have our own minds but how do we know we have not made a mistake?

My therapist keep asking me why do I keep questioning myself when I do something. I am using drawing and writing as therapy and I told him "I can write anything I want in here. Cool." He says, "it took you a long time to realize this?" (he said it in his therapy language) Then I realize, the truth and expression is from me. No one else.

Not christ.
Not Vishnu.
Not Bahaullah
Not Muhammad.

Just me. I don't have a community to reflect on and most my family are christian. I talked with my family in spirit and at the end it comes back to my expression.

Again, my truth and your truth are the same, right? What is my truth?

But somebody must know the truth just who is it? We live in an agreement of confusion where everyone says he has the truth and the other guy doesn't.

No. For the reasons I gave above.

So we go our own way and see what happens. In time the sun rises. In time the truth will be evident. But now even if I had the truth I would be seen as an imposter and liar.

That is life. Some people can handle it others cannot. Age sometimes is a factor but not always since I notice here (people above 60s) depend on their faith. Fear of not knowing is a factor too.

So let's wait and see over time what happens and how the truth reveals itself.

If you like. Or we can learn about life and our expressions without expecting any one truth to come about. To me, waiting for one truth is wasting my time. Making my own truth is putting life to work. But everyone is different.

My point is, do you consider other people's differences and be in others shoes without trying to tie people together as if they are branches of one tree?

 

[Vinayaka]

I think we'll evolve into a flourishing and prosperous world civilisation.

You continually avoid the main question, lol. But it's good, I'm used to it. If it's just part of the suggested strategy for discussing with non-Baha'i', I can't blame you.

 

[CG Didymus]

Why an analogy? Why not just say humanity includes all people?

Baha'is have a ton of them... We are the flowers of one garden. The leaves on one tree. A tiny speck in a sea of humanity. Ok, maybe not the last one, but as you've seen, the Baha'i writing are very flowery.

 

[Vinayaka]

Baha'is have a ton of them... We are the flowers of one garden. The leaves on one tree. A tiny speck in a sea of humanity. Ok, maybe not the last one, but as you've seen, the Baha'i writing are very flowery.

Just a habit pattern. I've caught myself using an analogy when one wasn't necessary. Kind of like using a chainsaw to cut a dry twig.

 

[CG Didymus]

...What is the yardstick for determining the truth of something?

...Most people use a set of core principles by which they determine the truth or falsehood of something.

Christians will use the Bible, Muslims the Quran. Baha'is refer everything to the Writings of Baha'u'llah and our Central Figures...

And what are we taught in our different religions? Ours is the truth. Our Holy Book is the yardstick. The Jews check to see if Jesus is their Messiah? Some said "Yes" others said, "No". And with good reason. Jesus missed on a lot of things. Plus, many so-called prophecies are out of context.

And that is how you are being judged. Does the Baha'i Faith's claims measure up to what we know from our Holy Books? Some say "Yes" and some say "No". And with good reason. Many of the prophecies have to be manipulated to make them fit. It works for you, but it doesn't work for others. A biggy is that all other religion's time has run out. They are no longer relevant. For you, yes, but it is not the nicest thing to say to people who do find relevance in their spiritual path.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Do you trust your own and others judgement to be right without an outside input?



In my belief, ourselves, our environment, and our family in spirit. Nothing sacred and no god. No sacred books and no prophets. It's experience and observation. It's trusting our own expressions and who we are as people. In my field, it is how I express myself through my art and so forth. There is an underlying guidance from my mind that judges what I should an shouldn't do. Unfortunately, societal laws shape that when it comes to legal and social matters.

It comes from ourselves.

There's a quote I remember that says "in the end, we die in our own arms." Some people can't trust themselves as the judge but at the end, even our interpretations and experiences with "god" are through our perceptions and interpretations of our "sacred" scripture. It comes from us.



Depends. If you depend on people who passed away for truth, that's your yardstick. Other people on this thread say it's more valuable to look toward to living with higher spiritual authority and experience. While many thinking of their gut feeling and experiences to determine right and wrong. Others follow the law and/or family norms.

Again, you're making everything be one true-one truth when there are many trees. I look outside my window and literally see more than one tree. If we base life on analogies, then that's how I'd see it. I see many trees that means I see many truths. More than respecting diversity but considering the cores of the diversity as their individual truths.



Wrong by whose terms? If you don't trust yourself, then of course you'd think in right/wrong terms. Not all people see it that way. When you take people's view into consideration, you try to put yourself in the other person's shoes. Do you want to know or understand what it is like seeing life that has not right/wrong terms?



Some people love the painter more than the art; others love the art more than the painter. I see the art not the painter. Others see the painter rather than the art. Some say both but then lean towards the painter; others vis versa.

This is where open mindedness comes from. Change your perception. Do you need to know the artist? Why do you think there is an artist to begin with? What clues lead you specifically to believe there is an artist without assumptions of what exists in front of you?



Bahai is not excluded from this. However, not all religions are prophet-religions. Hinduism is a good example as been told to you many times. Do you take that view into consideration as valid or not?



Our expressions are the truth. We disagree heavily here. We don't judge. We don't take away traditions, rituals, and dogma. We don't build a new system. We let people express their own truths. Work with them not build a new system for them.



Remember, most people is not all people; and most people do not define all people. Generalizations is the mother of all evils.



Which is fine. I use my expressions. Buddhist use the Dharma and their practice. Hindu use their practice (it's not a people-of-the-book faiths) and so forth.



My therapist keep asking me why do I keep questioning myself when I do something. I am using drawing and writing as therapy and I told him "I can write anything I want in here. Cool." He says, "it took you a long time to realize this?" (he said it in his therapy language) Then I realize, the truth and expression is from me. No one else.

Not christ.
Not Vishnu.
Not Bahaullah
Not Muhammad.

Just me. I don't have a community to reflect on and most my family are christian. I talked with my family in spirit and at the end it comes back to my expression.

Again, my truth and your truth are the same, right? What is my truth?



No. For the reasons I gave above.



That is life. Some people can handle it others cannot. Age sometimes is a factor but not always since I notice here (people above 60s) depend on their faith. Fear of not knowing is a factor too.

You do what you feel is best for you and what your mind feels comfortable with. If you feel your expression is the truth then follow your heart and be happy with it.

If you feel you have no need of religion or Prophets etc then follow your heart.

Rely on what you find works for you and just ignore Baha'i if you feel it has nothing to offer you. Just follow your own mind and heart. Don't accept anything you don't agree with and enjoy your art. Maybe we can see some of it one day.

I accept you the way you are. I don't want you to be anything you're not, certainly not a Baha'i. Just as you are I accept and like you. And you teach me a lot but I do apologies for our miscommunications.

 

[CG Didymus]

Just a habit pattern. I've caught myself using an analogy when one wasn't necessary. Kind of like using a chainsaw to cut a dry twig.

I like that analogy. But you know, I was impressed by the flowery, poetic writing of the Baha'i Faith back in the 70's... later... I saw the same style in the Quran. I know, I know, they don't like the comparison, but it's there. They are so very similar to Islam.

 

[loverofhumanity]

And what are we taught in our different religions? Ours is the truth. Our Holy Book is the yardstick. The Jews check to see if Jesus is their Messiah? Some said "Yes" others said, "No". And with good reason. Jesus missed on a lot of things. Plus, many so-called prophecies are out of context.

And that is how you are being judged. Does the Baha'i Faith's claims measure up to what we know from our Holy Books? Some say "Yes" and some say "No". And with good reason. Many of the prophecies have to be manipulated to make them fit. It works for you, but it doesn't work for others. A biggy is that all other religion's time has run out. They are no longer relevant. For you, yes, but it is not the nicest thing to say to people who do find relevance in their spiritual path.

But what if they, like myself, discover their Promised One has come? Would they be offended then or rejoice? I was offended also until I found out the truth.

Prophecies are not needed to prove Baha'u'llah. His Life and Teachings are more than sufficient.

 

[loverofhumanity]

You continually avoid the main question, lol. But it's good, I'm used to it. If it's just part of the suggested strategy for discussing with non-Baha'i', I can't blame you.

I am unaware I'm avoiding anything.

The truth is the future of humanity is in the hands of the people of the world. That is why you will read Baha'u'llah often saying 'O Peoples of the World', because ultimately their future is their choice.

Neither Baha'u'llah nor us Baha'is can ever decide humanity's fate. That is in their and your hands alone.

 

[CG Didymus]

But what if they, like myself, discover their Promised One has come? Would they be offended then or rejoice? I was offended also until I found out the truth.

Prophecies are not needed to prove Baha'u'llah. His Life and Teachings are more than sufficient.

Unfortunately, the prophecies are there, and, if all this is true, prophecies has caused a lot of people to not believe in the different manifestations. But still, I can't imagine all Jews believing Jesus as their Messiah.... and then, all of them believing in Muhammad a few centuries later. And still, how do we tie in Hinduism and Buddhism? Should all Hindus have converted to Buddhism? And then all of them upon hearing about Zoroaster converted to his religion?

But it's more than the prophecies, it's the teachings of the different religions themselves. I know you're happy with the explanation of how they are all one, but, like the prophecies, the differences are intrinsic to the each religion. In case you don't know what "intrinsic" means, don't worry, neither do I, but it sounds good.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Unfortunately, the prophecies are there, and, if all this is true, prophecies has caused a lot of people to not believe in the different manifestations. But still, I can't imagine all Jews believing Jesus as their Messiah.... and then, all of them believing in Muhammad a few centuries later. And still, how do we tie in Hinduism and Buddhism? Should all Hindus have converted to Buddhism? And then all of them upon hearing about Zoroaster converted to his religion?

But it's more than the prophecies, it's the teachings of the different religions themselves. I know you're happy with the explanation of how they are all one, but, like the prophecies, the differences are intrinsic to the each religion. In case you don't know what "intrinsic" means, don't worry, neither do I, but it sounds good.

The due ioles accepted Christ due to His Person and Life not prophecies.

But yes they are there and they can confirm the truth if one looks at them holistically.

If one puts all the clues of the prophecies from all the major religions together a profile will most definitely emerge with even a time and place and name. And even what He will teach and His Life.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I like that analogy. But you know, I was impressed by the flowery, poetic writing of the Baha'i Faith back in the 70's... later... I saw the same style in the Quran. I know, I know, they don't like the comparison, but it's there. They are so very similar to Islam.

I think the old English style is what you mean are similar because you won't find the flowery style in the Quran as it's very abrupt and more of a warning whereas the Bahai Writings focus on unity and harmony so it's a different emphasis.

You won't find things like this in the Quran...

'In the garden of thy heart plant naught but the rose of love...