How are these Great Beings explained?

[Vinayaka]

On the contrary I have consulted the most accurate source and gone with it instead of relying on my limited, fallible human knowledge.

There are times like when we are ill that turning to a specialist is much more plausable than self diagnosis.

You don't see any contradiction?

 

[Vinayaka]

I think future is referring to the gradual education of people and the need for time to adjust from a meat eating diet to a vegetarian one and so no hard and fast laws were laid down.

LOL ... that was 100 years ago. No individual needs 100 years to adjust. Nobody lives that long, unless some Baha'i' have found a fountain of youth.

Let me tell you a story of the amount of time it takes to adjust to a vegetarian diet. My guru had decided (this was about 30 years ago) that the close membership in the organisation would have to be vegetarian. He announced it at a retreat I attended on the island of Mauritius. Mauritians, like a lot of island people eat fish, and this was no exception in the students at that time. So he made the announcement, but then said, 'But for adjustment reasons, I will give you one year, but that's it." A close friend of mine then, and still is, leaned over and whispered in my ear, "Well, ______, I guess I'm a vegetarian." He never ate meat again. Sop adjustment can be instantaneous, just like that. So I don't get this 'period of adjustment' thing. If you ask a woman to marry you, just how long can you stand for 'Maybe later'. 100 years is a very long time, my friend.

 

[Vinayaka]

I know Baha'is who are married to members of other Faiths and it hasn't ended up in divorce or broken the home up. And I'm happily married soon 40 years to a Baha'i. A lot of marriages break down that have nothing to do with religion at all.

You're not reading the same information I'm reading about Baha'i' and marriage success. But you have the right to believe in some Baha'i' utopia too. That's up to you. The truth is out there somewhere.

 

[Vinayaka]

“Even without eating meat he would live with the utmost vigour and energy. For example, the community of the Brahmins in India do not eat meat; notwithstanding this they are not inferior to other nations in strength, power, vigour, outward senses or intellectual virtues. Truly, the killing of animals and the eating of their meat is somewhat contrary to pity and compassion, and if one can content oneself with cereals, fruit, oil and nuts, such as pistachios, almonds and so on, it would undoubtedly be better and more pleasing” Abdul-Baha

Excerpt From: Compiled by the Research Department of the Universal House of Justice. “Health, Healing and Nutrition,

@Carlita .. I guess I win the bet.

BTW, this sort of information isn't exactly new to Hindus. There's lots of ancient stuff on the benefits of vegetarianism. Baha'u'llah's son makes it sound ad if he's coming up with some new information on his own.

 

[rabkauhallA]

There is no injunction on birth control in Hinduism. Abortion is considered very unwise.

'Will become vegetarians in the future' sounds like a society of procrastinators, to be honest. The future is now.

Yeah, but a good Ribeye is orgasmic. You do you. I'll eat cows and pigs and chickens and turkeys and......

 

[Vinayaka]

Yeah, but a good Ribeye is orgasmic. You do you. I'll eat cows and pigs and chickens and turkeys and......

Off topic and irrelevant. Shrug.

 

[loverofhumanity]

No. I don't understand. Everything I do is what I think and feel. My thoughts and feelings aren't based nor reflective of a higher power. My morals are not prophet nor god basis and I have yet to understand how another person can base their morals on god and/or a prophet.

Goodness is different for everyone. Each person has their own foundation of goodness. There is no common foundation.



I don't understand. You are belittling people by putting down the goodness they feel and think in place of the goodness someone else defines. You are saying there is a common goodness and ignoring the fact that to have something in common everyone has to agree.

You have an individual belief. It isn't in common with other people. We are telling you it is not. Agreement makes what we have in common. When you do not agree, it is your opinion but there is no common denominator. Understand?​

If I said it more bluntly, the common denominator you're seeing is an illusion because if you assume everyone agrees when they tell you they do not, it's not just your belief and opinion, it is also belittling what they say is true about themselves.



The real world is polytheistic. People like to think everyone has something in common. It's a dominate way of thinking. It's been repeated through many religions: Muslim, Christianity.

Unacceptable to society has to do with the law. It is not a common denominator. If you look at history, you would see this is true.

People can think murdering is good regardless of what the law thinks. If you have ever been part of religions that value sacrifice you will understand why this is true.

To be blunt, I feel you are in an illusionary world. If you don't see differences and the different ways people define goodness outside of your prophet's teachings, then you put yourself in a mythological world.

Nothing wrong with that morally. Just I don't understand it. It's not just you.



That's wishful thinking. I won't ever agree with a christian to build common consensus in thought. A christian wouldn't agree with a bahai. Most people understand this. Universalist do not. Dont understand why.



Why do you think what we want, think, and feel is a bad thing? Should we not want, think, and feel? That's an insult to me and a lot of people who value their desires, thoughts, and feelings.

I have desires. Why are they considered bad because I have them. I have thoughts. I have feelings. Is it because they aren't based on god that it is wrong?

Again, I asked you, since my goodness is not your goodness (not expression but completely different) is my goodness not real?

I can't remember the actual question. You never answered it.

You are free to decide what you want to believe in as goodness. I believe goodness comes ultimately from God and that what He decrees is goodness is true goodness not our definition of it. So whether or not your goodness is real or not depends on how God views it and God reveals His good pleasure and Will in the Holy Books. That's my belief. You may believe otherwise and I don't question your right to freedom of thought as that is your prerogative. Your freedom and Vinayaka's freedom to choose to believe even if it is wrong is considered your own freedom by Baha'is. You are free to think what you want even opposite to us and it doesn't affect us at all. You are always welcome amongst us no matter even if you hated us. It just wouldn't matter.

Because freedom is the main reason Baha'u'llah came. Bahá'u'lláh came to set humanity free. His is an invitation to freedom from want, freedom from war, freedom to unite, freedom to progress, freedom in peace and joy, freedom of thought and belief.

As these freedoms are what Baha'u'llah came to promote of course I respect your freedom to think and feel what you like,

If you think opposite you'll find that Baha'is will welcome you with open arms.

 

[loverofhumanity]

@Carlita .. I guess I win the bet.

BTW, this sort of information isn't exactly new to Hindus. There's lots of ancient stuff on the benefits of vegetarianism. Baha'u'llah's son makes it sound ad if he's coming up with some new information on his own.

He's not speaking to a Hindu audience but likely a western one in the early 1900's. People asked Him questions so He kindly answered them.

 

[Vinayaka]

You are free to decide what you want to believe in as goodness. I believe goodness comes ultimately from God and that what He decrees is goodness is true goodness not our definition of it. So whether or not your goodness is real or not depends on how God views it and God reveals His good pleasure and Will in the Holy Books. That's my belief. You may believe otherwise and I don't question your right to freedom of thought as that is your prerogative. Your freedom and Vinayaka's freedom to choose to believe even if it is wrong is considered your own freedom by Baha'is. You are free to think what you want even opposite to us and it doesn't affect us at all. You are always welcome amongst us no matter even if you hated us. It just wouldn't matter.

Because freedom is the main reason Baha'u'llah came. Bahá'u'lláh came to set humanity free. His is an invitation to freedom from want, freedom from war, freedom to unite, freedom to progress, freedom in peace and joy, freedom of thought and belief.

As these freedoms are what Baha'u'llah came to promote of course I respect your freedom to think and feel what you like,

If you think opposite you'll find that Baha'is will welcome you with open arms.

You honestly don't see the contradictions?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You are free to decide what you want to believe in as goodness. I believe goodness comes ultimately from God and that what He decrees is goodness is true goodness not our definition of it. So whether or not your goodness is real or not depends on how God views it and God reveals His good pleasure and Will in the Holy Books. That's my belief. You may believe otherwise and I don't question your right to freedom of thought as that is your prerogative. Your freedom and Vinayaka's freedom to choose to believe even if it is wrong is considered your own freedom by Baha'is. You are free to think what you want even opposite to us and it doesn't affect us at all. You are always welcome amongst us no matter even if you hated us. It just wouldn't matter.

Because freedom is the main reason Baha'u'llah came. Bahá'u'lláh came to set humanity free. His is an invitation to freedom from want, freedom from war, freedom to unite, freedom to progress, freedom in peace and joy, freedom of thought and belief.

As these freedoms are what Baha'u'llah came to promote of course I respect your freedom to think and feel what you like,

If you think opposite you'll find that Baha'is will welcome you with open arms.

When you value and respect diversity beyond surface level, you have interest in learning why and how people see their religion from their perspective. Of course, I know you view everything from a god view. My ongoing question (maybe every two or three posts) is do you see it in my view?

I mean, of course I see it in your view. You repeatedly post Bahaullah's scriptures, I had different perspectives from three other Bahai as well as yours, and everyone's commentary on Bahai scriptures.

Since my goodness does not come from god, are you willing to understand why it does not?

I can explain why I ask this until I'm blue in the face, but go beyond that. If you really want to learn about people's beliefs, learn their perspectives and points of view. Ask open ended questions (again, I say). Interfaith talk is beyond surface understanding and respect on a social level.

Can you imagine or even talk to someone who does not at all believe in the same god as you?

Can you imagine and even talk to someone who does not believe in god at all no matter your beliefs otherwise?

We "listen" to you as you are willing to share your faith in evangelism (not a bad word; it is what it is) but it's not one-sided conversations. Christians do this. I would try not to compare Bahai to christianity but it is quite similar.

 

[loverofhumanity]

You're not reading the same information I'm reading about Baha'i' and marriage success. But you have the right to believe in some Baha'i' utopia too. That's up to you. The truth is out there somewhere.

There is no such thing as a Baha'i Utopia. We are people just like everyone else and are prone to errors and mistakes like anyone else is.

Divorce is relevant to the society in which we live. For instance, the divorce rate of Baha'is in Burma is almost non existent whereas in the US it is much higher.

But as we develop our Baha'i identity and culture, these things will fade away as the the Baha'i Teachings empasise unity so as we become better educated in things like equality between men and women and the art of consultation, unity will improve and divorce will become rare. It is a gradual educative process.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You honestly don't see the contradictions?

Haha. lol

@loverofhumanity

Can you say: "Carlita and Vinayaka, you are wrong. Your goodness does not come from the god I believe in. You have the freedom to believe as you will; and, I believe it is false" ?

 

[Vinayaka]

To be fair, it IS part of certain religions to evangelize, even mandated. Part of the religion, what they do etc. In other faiths it's totally frowned upon, never done, never even thought about. So although its darned annoying at times, it IS part of their faith. I amk grateful to God it's not part of mine. I couldn't stand doing that. Too much like a used car salesman.

As you might know, we live next door to a Mormon missionary house. A couple of years ago, yound Elder Smith confided in me that the worst part was the proseltysing. He liked the youth group leadership the learning, the being independent, but in his words, 'Nah, I could do without that part." (the proselytising)

 

[Vinayaka]

But as we develop our Baha'i identity and culture, these things will fade away as the the Baha'i Teachings empasise unity so as we become better educated in things like equality between men and women and the art of consultation, unity will improve and divorce will become rare. It is a gradual educative process.

No utopia? What is this dream of the future? Unity, goodness, all that stuff? I honestly think you're clouded from the insider's POV, all those years of programming.

 

[Vinayaka]

Haha. lol

@loverofhumanity

Can you say: "Carlita and Vinayaka, you are wrong. Your goodness does not come from the god I believe in. You have the freedom to believe as you will; and, I believe it is false" ?

Must be hard not to say what one is so obviously thinking.

"Yes we have freedom."

then ... "But we have to always obey the infallible prophet." Sounds more like a mental brain jail to me. Certainly not freedom, when you can't even disagree with the House of Justice, who might just have poor judgement.

 

[loverofhumanity]

When you value and respect diversity beyond surface level, you have interest in learning why and how people see their religion from their perspective. Of course, I know you view everything from a god view. My ongoing question (maybe every two or three posts) is do you see it in my view?

I mean, of course I see it in your view. You repeatedly post Bahaullah's scriptures, I had different perspectives from three other Bahai as well as yours, and everyone's commentary on Bahai scriptures.

Since my goodness does not come from god, are you willing to understand why it does not?

I can explain why I ask this until I'm blue in the face, but go beyond that. If you really want to learn about people's beliefs, learn their perspectives and points of view. Ask open ended questions (again, I say). Interfaith talk is beyond surface understanding and respect on a social level.

Can you imagine or even talk to someone who does not at all believe in the same god as you?

Can you imagine and even talk to someone who does not believe in god at all no matter your beliefs otherwise?

We "listen" to you as you are willing to share your faith in evangelism (not a bad word; it is what it is) but it's not one-sided conversations. Christians do this. I would try not to compare Bahai to christianity but it is quite similar.

You dont believe your goodness comes from God then where do you think it comes from?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Must be hard not to say what one is so obviously thinking.

"Yes we have freedom."

then ... "But we have to always obey the infallible prophet." Sounds more like a mental brain jail to me. Certainly not freedom, when you can't even disagree with the House of Justice, who might just have poor judgement.

We love to obey Baha'u'llah and the Universal House of Justice. We do it out of love nothing else.

We do everything for the love of God.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You dont believe your goodness comes from God then where do you think it comes from?

THANK YOU for asking.

Me.

To put it blunt. Like I said, my expressions (art, language, interest, goals, etc) are a part of me. I can tell what is goodness by how I react emotionally. Is it healthy? Does it bring me peace of mind, body, and spirit? Does it hurt others? If so, how can I address it?

Art is a reflective way of seeing your thoughts and emotions on paper or on canvas. I just finished a painting earlier today. Now I can smile. I love to roller skate. Roller skating to music gives me freedom as well. My goodness comes from this freedom. God not included. My goals. My family. My family in spirit. My friends. Myself. My environment. The spirits of my environment.

That interconnection is not a mystical experience. It is not Oneness. You may think it is because I'm using the words and the same language; but, like the killing example, we have totally different foundations of similar expressions. Your foundation is god, mine is not.

Therefore the words I use such as goodness does not mean the samething to me as it does to you. We are totally different people.

When you respect diversity, you see in other people's point of view. It is more than surface level. That is tolerance. You can still belief in what you want to believe.

I'm just saying have a bit more interest in the other party. What you asked was an open ended question. Vinyaka believes in god too. However, the god he believes in is not at all the same god you believe in. You may think he does, but remember, if you respecting diversity, you have to take his belief into consideration that it is true. You are not Hindu. Why wouldn't it be? He believes in facts. Yours are beliefs. Do you understand the difference?

 

[loverofhumanity]

No utopia? What is this dream of the future? Unity, goodness, all that stuff? I honestly think you're clouded from the insider's POV, all those years of programming.

We see it as a dream that is coming true.

I understand that not knowing Who Baha'u'llah is you think the way you do, that is perfectly natural.

But we who have come to know Him, see it as the greatest gift of our lives.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Must be hard not to say what one is so obviously thinking.

"Yes we have freedom."

then ... "But we have to always obey the infallible prophet." Sounds more like a mental brain jail to me. Certainly not freedom, when you can't even disagree with the House of Justice, who might just have poor judgement.

Kinda harsh, but yes, I can see that. That is one of the biggest reasons prophet faiths and god-faiths even don't appeal to me more than inspirational knowledge. Someone has to pin me to the ground first. I just don't see freedom in those type of religions. I'm not familiar with Hinduism but western religions are more political.