How are these Great Beings explained?

[Vinayaka]

I don't know which sentence you're referring to. I can elaborate and clarify it.

Freedom and blind obedience being complementary.

 

[Vinayaka]

When you are interested in someone else's point of view, you ask open ended questions and converse. We have conversed over your beliefs.

In fairness, it would be very difficult to talk to me about my beliefs. Loverofhumanity has asked a bit of stuff, but I'm certainly not volunteering much information either, because I actually don't proselytise. It's not forbidden, but just out of a respect for other peoples' faith, I don't see any need to promote my faith. There is also a 'sacred is secret' theme throughout practical Hinduism. It's so experiential, and yapping away about one's personal mystical experiences diminishes any power it may have built up. So it's rare to even make a comparison. The last thing we need in our group is more people from an Abrahamic background.

There are several unanswered and avoided questions. I'm trying to get a sense of this 'equality of women' thing, for example, yet all 7 or so Baha'i's on this forum are men, so it's impossible to even talk to a Baha'i' woman about her POV on it. I believe it's another of those contradictions, as the House of Justice is all men.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Freedom and blind obedience being complementary.

I thought that might be it but thanks for clarifying that because we don't see any contradiction.

Which laws and which blind obedience are you specifically referring to because the laws all have a purpose which is beneficial and Baha'u'llah explains why in many cases a law has been prescribed. We mostly understand many laws. There would be only very few cases where we don't know the reason.

Baha'u'llah says that people need laws to protect them from their own ignorance and also that liberty ends in sedition. That humanity needs a shepherd and that some freedoms are approved and some forbidden according to God's wisdom.

My answer is inadequate however without quoting a Source and may not even be entirectly correct so if you contest this I will have to provide a quote.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It's not easy. Baha'is can only tell you so much but cannot give you the same experience and knowledge as reading the Words of Baha'u'llah but I suppose it's better than nothing. Just please be aware that you're not getting your information from the Source and it could be inaccurate.

Coming from one who values their own words than a prophet and god, that sounds odd. I can't know about you and all other Bahai through Bahaullah. Bahaullah (to me) is just like you and everyone else. So, it would be like asking anyone else to know about you.

It is also one thing to ask a living person to speak in your behalf, but someone who passed away???? Think about it, though. When I read any sacred text, I see it as words and text not the author himself. The text is a reflection of the author (likewise art and artist) but I wouldn't mistake in a literal very literal sense the author is the text. An artist and I can talk about art all day but if I called him the mountains he painted in a literal sense he'd look at me odd. I understand what you mean when you compare it to art, but in this case I'm asking specific questions I cannot ascertain from sacred text or a picture.

I would need to talk to Bahaullah alive directly to know about him just as I'd need to talk to you directly to talk about you. I can't understand how you can depend on a prophet for your experiences.

 

[loverofhumanity]

In fairness, it would be very difficult to talk to me about my beliefs. Loverofhumanity has asked a bit of stuff, but I'm certainly not volunteering much information either, because I actually don't proselytise. It's not forbidden, but just out of a respect for other peoples' faith, I don't see any need to promote my faith. There is also a 'sacred is secret' theme throughout practical Hinduism. It's so experiential, and yapping away about one's personal mystical experiences diminishes any power it may have built up. So it's rare to even make a comparison. The last thing we need in our group is more people from an Abrahamic background.

There are several unanswered and avoided questions. I'm trying to get a sense of this 'equality of women' thing, for example, yet all 7 or so Baha'i's on this forum are men, so it's impossible to even talk to a Baha'i' woman about her POV on it. I believe it's another of those contradictions, as the House of Justice is all men.

There are plenty of Bahá'í women one can ask either in Bahá'í communities and I'm sure many are online too.

I have often had delightful conversations with Bahá'í ladies on this website.

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[Vinayaka]

I thought that might be it but thanks for clarifying that because we don't see any contradiction.

Which laws and which blind obedience are you specifically referring to because the laws all have a purpose which is beneficial and Baha'u'llah explains why in many cases a law has been prescribed. We mostly understand many laws. There would be only very few cases where we don't know the reason.

Baha'u'llah says that people need laws to protect them from their own ignorance and also that liberty ends in sedition. That humanity needs a shepherd and that some freedoms are approved and some forbidden according to God's wisdom.

My answer is inadequate however without quoting a Source and may not even be entirectly correct so if you contest this I will have to provide a quote.

I understand that you see no contradiction. After all, you are a Baha'i', and it's part of all prophet based religions to believe that the prophet will set you free. I see it as binding, a tether, this attachment, the dependence. (Some critics call it a crutch, but I've never liked that term). I'm a Hindu so I don't see it that way. Hindus don't think that way. We live in two very differing paradigms.

So it's not you that doesn't get this concept. It's me.

 

[Vinayaka]

There are plenty of Bahá'í women one can ask either in Bahá'í communities and I'm sure many are online too.

I have often had delightful conversations with Bahá'í ladies on this website.

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Not on this site. That's what I said. Nothing really speaks to the headquarters being all male either. Adrian tried to explain it, and what I got out of that was that, like vegetarianism, it's 'in the future'. Not much of an explanation, but it will have to suffice I suppose.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

In fairness, it would be very difficult to talk to me about my beliefs. Loverofhumanity has asked a bit of stuff, but I'm certainly not volunteering much information either, because I actually don't proselytise. It's not forbidden, but just out of a respect for other peoples' faith, I don't see any need to promote my faith. There is also a 'sacred is secret' theme throughout practical Hinduism. It's so experiential, and yapping away about one's personal mystical experiences diminishes any power it may have built up. So it's rare to even make a comparison. The last thing we need in our group is more people from an Abrahamic background.

Hmm. I have to ask you Do you understand the difference between sharing your faith and proselytising (more accurately, evangelism)?

I know it's hard and sacred to talk about the inner or deeper things of Hinduism, probably even to another Hindu as well. I mean, as a former Catholic, a Catholic and I can talk about the sacredness of confession but we steer from the deepness of the confession and process of it in relation to what we confessed. If an outside asked me about confession, I wouldn't consider it information to convert (pro-) or over sharing information (evang-) but a honest and serious conversation about the sacraments of christ.

No person has asked me as a Catholic before without belittling the faith; but, my point is sharing your faith isn't sharing-to-convert. I know it may sound like it given all the western ways of sharing and the cultures are different but I wasn't raised in a sharing-to-convert mindset nor a "keep everything to self" mindset. The former is just immoral and the latter you'd have to pin me to the ground first.

There are several unanswered and avoided questions. I'm trying to get a sense of this 'equality of women' thing, for example, yet all 7 or so Baha'i's on this forum are men, so it's impossible to even talk to a Baha'i' woman about her POV on it. I believe it's another of those contradictions, as the House of Justice is all men.

I don't know about the women conversation. I know other religions that don't share their faith either. I honestly find that odd. I think @loverofhumanity or @ardrian (or maybe both) said if you believe in something, why not share it.

Not the way they do it. Just general sharing. Kind of like saying to your best friend "hey, guess what I got last friday for my birthday..."

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I could say "Carlita dear, maybe what you believe could be understood in another way, no?

Anyway I still think you're a very nice person both you and Vinayaka. You've put up with me for so long you both must be saints!!! Lol.

You said you painted something lately and liked it. Why not share it with us all?

Hey. I learn from those who challenge my thoughts. I mean, why put it in the debate section if you don't mind being challenge but you're not allowed to challenge us. @loverofhumanity saying my beliefs are false isn't "denouncing my faith." It's just being blunt. Now if you guys said, "your beliefs are /rap" maybe I take that into consideration as denouncing.

But in this context and conversation, I'd fine it positive. That's me.

Thank you Adrian for the compliment.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Coming from one who values their own words than a prophet and god, that sounds odd. I can't know about you and all other Bahai through Bahaullah. Bahaullah (to me) is just like you and everyone else. So, it would be like asking anyone else to know about you.

It is also one thing to ask a living person to speak in your behalf, but someone who passed away???? Think about it, though. When I read any sacred text, I see it as words and text not the author himself. The text is a reflection of the author (likewise art and artist) but I wouldn't mistake in a literal very literal sense the author is the text. An artist and I can talk about art all day but if I called him the mountains he painted in a literal sense he'd look at me odd. I understand what you mean when you compare it to art, but in this case I'm asking specific questions I cannot ascertain from sacred text or a picture.

I would need to talk to Bahaullah alive directly to know about him just as I'd need to talk to you directly to talk about you. I can't understand how you can depend on a prophet for your experiences.

Yes I understand. Whatever questions you have just ask us and we'll try to answer the best we know how.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

An insecure foundation destine to crumble like a sand castle on the beach? That is actually a difficult question as for Baha'is love of God is the foundation for other loves.

Can you imagine a love without god?

The question is a little like asking an atheist "what is love with God?"

That's my point. If an atheist can find love without god, can a god-believer imagine it?

I'll go easy on the quoting. I have had Christians quote extensively at me sometimes and it does not feel like a conversation at all.

LOL now you know my pain

Baha'u'llah talks about an abundance of deeds and fewness of words, but I won't provide the quote.

It's hard to do that on RF. You kinda need words.

Look, a whole post without quoting. It is possible!

It's a miracle!

 

[loverofhumanity]

Hey. I learn from those who challenge my thoughts. I mean, why put it in the debate section if you don't mind being challenge but you're not allowed to challenge us. @loverofhumanity saying my beliefs are false isn't "denouncing my faith." It's just being blunt. Now if you guys said, "your beliefs are /rap" maybe I take that into consideration as denouncing.

But in this context and conversation, I'd fine it positive. That's me.

Thank you Adrian for the compliment.

Ok. What made you disbelieve in a God?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Thank you Tony. Another Bahai hiding in the mist.

It is great that you hold and live the virtues from your heart and I am envious you an roller skate, never done it myself and it looks like so much Fun. I see many roller blades users zooming around the walkways here in Australia.

Yes. I took it up again five years ago and went from wobbling to skating backwards. When the music is good, you have the freedom to move your body to the music.

I see your passion for all that is good and this raises a few questions I would like to explore with you. If this freedom you currently have, that feeds that goodness, vanished overnight, how do you think you would react? Do you think you could keep those virtues and peace of mind if, lets say tomorrow you were made a refugee fleeing the destruction around you? (You may have provided this in other posts, but hey there are thousands to read )

When an artist paints and when I draw or write, it's not that he is dependant on the paint itself, the brush or pencil, and paper. These things and the result of using these things are tools to express one's art.

But when you see the picture or story already in your head, as some authors actually see their full characters in their head, that can't be taken away. Many authors fall in love with their characters even if they can't write a word about them.

If I were locked in a jail cell, I'd most likely go crazy. Yes, the peace of mind and all of that is in me, but I value expression of it. Even if I only had my body to do so, if I were paralyzed from the neck down and couldn't talk, I'd mentally die.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Too harsh, yes. It was late at night. But living in a different paradigm makes it so difficult to understand.

No, I disagree you were being harsh. You were just being honest and truthful and that is what I like most about you is you say what you think and I'm more than happy with that.

Please don't hold anything back.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Ok. What made you disbelieve in a God?

I was actually raised without belief in god. I wasn't indoctrinated. So, when I first learned about christianity around twelve, it was more study since I love religion. When I joined the Catholic Church five years ago, they taught god is jesus christ. So, still I never knew a god without having some sort of physical attribute about him. So, I learned about jesus christ, the sacraments, and so forth. In christianity, that teaches you about god the father.

I don't believe in human sacrifice, so that is what made me fall. Reflecting on my sins on someone else just sounded so wrong.

As for belief in god without jesus, i never had that to begin with. I didn't know how to see jesus as god because of it. It just felt like I was using him.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Not on this site. That's what I said. Nothing really speaks to the headquarters being all male either. Adrian tried to explain it, and what I got out of that was that, like vegetarianism, it's 'in the future'. Not much of an explanation, but it will have to suffice I suppose.

What we do know for certain is meat eating will cease to exist much sooner than later with things like mad cow disease and bird flu epidemics recently.

Women not being on the House of Justice is unknown 'yet'.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I love watching Bob Ross. I used to watch him with my grandmother so I paint and do my art for her.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I was actually raised without belief in god. I wasn't indoctrinated. So, when I first learned about christianity around twelve, it was more study since I love religion. When I joined the Catholic Church five years ago, they taught god is jesus christ. So, still I never knew a god without having some sort of physical attribute about him. So, I learned about jesus christ, the sacraments, and so forth. In christianity, that teaches you about god the father.

I don't believe in human sacrifice, so that is what made me fall. Reflecting on my sins on someone else just sounded so wrong.

As for belief in god without jesus, i never had that to begin with. I didn't know how to see jesus as god because of it. It just felt like I was using him.

Then you believe your sins are your responsibility to correct not someone else?

 

[loverofhumanity]

I love watching Bob Ross. I used to watch him with my grandmother so I paint and do my art for her.

Awesome! Love the painting.!

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Then you believe your sins are your responsibility to correct not someone else?

Yes.