How are these Great Beings explained?

[Vinayaka]

But I completely understand what you mean. In The Church when we go to the bigger Parish, there are many saint statues. Catholics go to the Saints they are called to and we don't talk to them or ask them anything. It's a solace atmosphere. Similar to when I went to the Hindu temple except they were very happy to see me that they gave me so much fruits . I don't know if Bahai will understand that, really.

In both Catholicism and Hinduism, there are 'other worlds' going on simultaneously. What you call angels we call devas. For us some are helpful or mature souls just between births who can help from that side. Temple worship is for 3 worlds, this physical plane and people, the second world where devas (angels) are, and the world where God lives, called the Sivaloka. So we share this rich sense of more to it than what we see. The Hindu rituals are all about beseeching the presence of God. We ask god to come and bless us in a mystical way. So devotees get visions, feel heat or cool or wind, and all that magical stuff. That's why Catholic cathedrals, shrines etc. have this energy about them, as do the statues in both faiths.

But this sort of mystic reality is unavailable to many Abrahamic faiths, for many reasons ... lack of belief in it, not knowing the right ritual, fear of the unknown, and more.

People who can't feel it just can't feel it. So there is no way they can understand it ... this totally non-intellectual but very real reality to us. For them it's blind faith and intellect.

Your lady friend seems really nice.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Can you imagine a love without god?

Of course.

Most of us start this life in the company of at least one of our parents and grow up in a family. Many as adults go on to have long term relationships and children. Love is the what holds all this together and sees us making the journey from being part of a family as a child to starting a family as an adult. We have core relationships with our parents, siblings, spouses, and children and love is the power of attraction that makes it work. Those relationships extend to growing up being educated and then being in the workplace. There are friends, teachers, and special people along the way.

This is the journey for many of us and of course some of us have troubles along the way where we need to reflect deeply on our relationships and place in the world. The question is "Does it require God?" In New Zealand nearly half the population do not have a religion or faith. Having said that, there are many in that group that believe in God but simply don't identify with any particular religious group.

So can I imagine love without God, naturally yes. Does belief in God assist love? For me, I believe my faith brings out the best in me. I was an atheist for nine months in my early 20s as I decided there was probably no God. It was the worst time in my life. When I turned to God, was when my life became positive and meaningful again.

That's my point. If an atheist can find love without god, can a god-believer imagine it?

Have I answered your question?

LOL now you know my pain

I'm currently conversing with a couple of Christians on some of my threads who just want to add long quotes from the book of revelation. It simply creates a barrier to meaningful discussion.

On the other hand if someone wants to know the Baha'i view, it is often helpful IMHO to use Baha'i writings to make the point rather than just use my own words. I try to get the balance right but now I know how you feel about quotes I will go easy.

It's hard to do that on RF. You kinda need words.

That is true LOL. Its all words here.

It's a miracle!

Miracles are possible.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

In both Catholicism and Hinduism, there are 'other worlds' going on simultaneously. What you call angels we call devas. For us some are helpful or mature souls just between births who can help from that side. Temple worship is for 3 worlds, this physical plane and people, the second world where devas (angels) are, and the world where God lives, called the Sivaloka. So we share this rich sense of more to it than what we see. The Hindu rituals are all about beseeching the presence of God. We ask god to come and bless us in a mystical way. So devotees get visions, feel heat or cool or wind, and all that magical stuff. That's why Catholic cathedrals, shrines etc. have this energy about them, as do the statues in both faiths.

But this sort of mystic reality is unavailable to many Abrahamic faiths, for many reasons ... lack of belief in it, not knowing the right ritual, fear of the unknown, and more.

People who can't feel it just can't feel it. So there is no way they can understand it ... this totally non-intellectual but very real reality to us. For them it's blind faith and intellect.

Your lady friend seems really nice.

Exactly. I felt that to an extent at the Hindu temple. A lot of which was the family atmosphere even though most are not native to the English language. That is one of the huge if not biggest things I miss in the Catholic Church is that mystic feeling or, as some say, "presense of god." I know there are some faiths where god is not limited to a specific characteristic such as a human being and if it wasn't the cornerstone of the Church, I probably would have stayed.

I love liturgical religions that every house of worship I go to it draws me to it spiritually. A broad term for it is Spiritualist with the addition of believing in god (which I haven't been to the church to understand how they define it) and belief in communication with the spirits and family in spirit. I think I'ma go there sermon tomorrow morning.

I don't know, Vinayaka. It might be explained. I just wish it wasn't always a "you have to experience it" explanation. In the case with atheist here, a lot of them don't want to experience it (go church hoping to) but understand the deeper levels at a conversational point of view. Many religious and minorities hold those general experiences within their community. That makes it hard for anyone to know more intimately about any faith unless its evangelical. I honestly don't find evangelical faiths all that healthy but because of the sacredness and "need to experience" some people have no other option because of lack of knowledge.

 

[Vinayaka]

I don't know, Vinayaka. It might be explained. I just wish it wasn't always a "you have to experience it" explanation.

There was a young Tamil man renting our basement for a year or so awhile back. He came to temple, helped out a ton in volunteering, and was generally a really friendly man. He was raised in Canada, had a Christian mother, and a Tamil Hindu father, so he had 3 things intertwined ... Canadian secularism, the Sri Lankan Tamil version of Christianity, and Saivism. He insisted he couldn't 'feel' it. He'd observe others crying in joy-filled bhakti, enjoying the moments of bliss, singing in ridiculously loving ways, and then come home to the lament that began, "Why can't that happen to me?"

I couldn't answer him, other than to ask, "Well, do you feel better after attending temple? After being there?" He'd, sometime hesitatingly, say 'Yes." But it was harder for him.

In Hinduism, my version, it's explained by soul age. God spawns souls, and as they mature through many many lifetimes, until they are again filled and thrilled with God's presence. So at any given moment there are young souls, instinctive, near animal in behaviour, and there are old souls, having attained samadhi many times, mature humble, wise, tolerant, pure, etc. So everyone is a soul, but also at different stages of development. That (at least to me) explains all behaviour imaginable on this planet ... all emotions, all religions. Everyone, because of their soul age, needs something different. Some need fear, some need a prophet, some need guidance, some need hard lessons, etc.

So if someone doesn't 'get it' that's just the stage they are at. Nothing more, nothing less. It's really no harder than just accepting it, like how tall a person is.

 

[loverofhumanity]

="sayak83 ]Simple clear answers to the following questions.

What do the Baha'is believe regarding

1)Afterlife. Is there a bodily resurrection or the souls go to heaven or hell. Is there a hell. Is it eternal. If not does everybody goes to heaven.

Thank you for your questions. With regard to afterlife we do not belive in a bodily resurrection. Eternal life, yes.Baha'is believe hell and heaven are states of the soul. Heaven is nearness to God and hell is distance from God through obedience or disobedience to His laws and Teachings. But we believe in eternal life after death, that the soul progresses through many worlds of God. People are all asssessed as to the way they lived and and their station in the next world is determined by their deeds here.

2) what is the fate of animals after death.

We do not believe animals have souls

3) Actions matter more or faith. Does a good atheist go to heaven. Does a bad Bahai go to hell (if there is one). What is the relationship between faith and afterlife.

We are told 'Faith is fewness of words and abundance of deeds'. But that to believe and obey are 'twin, inseparable duties' and neither is acceptable without the other. Hell and heaven are viewed as spiritual conditions we achieve through our efforts or lack of efforts. We are told no soul will be treated unjustly. A person will be judged according to his deeds.

How was the universe created. When. How will it end. When. Will there be others before or after. Or is it a one shot thing.

We believe that there was never a beginning and there will never be an end to existence. What does begin and end are cycles. One cycle beings and another ends or one universe dies and another is born but existence has always been and will always be. So the description in Holy Books of creation are describing the cycles when Manifestations appear.

5)Do the Bahai believe in evolution. How about human evolution. How did God create the universe and the life forms in it.

We believe in evolution but that man was always man and did not evolve from the lower species. He was always man. Other than that we accept the scientific explanations that it was a long gradual process.

6) Do miracles occur. How are they defined.

Miracles. Life is a miracle. It is a miracle to me how the elements combine perfectly and mathematically to produce a perfectly balanced nature and human being. The miracles of Prophets? Yes they are real but only for the people who are present at the time. Their real miracle is that they are able to transform people from sinners into saints.

7)Why do natural evils (disease etc.) exist. Why do human evil exist. Do humans have free will. Does God foreknow all that will happen. Did he also foreordain all that will happen.

Baha'is do not believe in the existence of evil. That it is really the absence of good just like darkness isn't an existence but the absence of light. A snake is evil in relation to man but in relation to another snake it is not. So all these terms are relative. We all have free will or freedom to choose our own destiny. Humans commit 'evil' deeds because of lack of spiritual education. God has foreknowledge of all that will occur but it is still up to us to make it happen and shape our own future. Man has always the choice to decide his own destiny. God has prior knowledge of what choice man will make but it is still man's decision to make and decide.

8)Does God act in the world. How.

The one main way God interacts with the world according to Baha'is is that He sends us a Teacher, Prophets or Educators like Buddha or Christ for each age. Also, He leaves us a Holy Book or Teachings to help guide and inspire us spiritually. But then He leaves it up to us to decide how much of His advice and counsels we wish to follow or nine of them . It's all entirely up to us if we want to walk in God's ways or choose our own path.

Thank you for you kind questions. Many of these we can explore further and there are many Baha'i Writings that explain it far better than i but I have done my best to try and just answer your questions as simply as possible.[/QUOTE]

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Hmm

So can I imagine love without God, naturally yes. Does belief in God assist love? For me, I believe my faith brings out the best in me. I was an atheist for nine months in my early 20s as I decided there was probably no God. It was the worst time in my life. When I turned to God, was when my life became positive and meaningful again.

I'm used to the "You can't have love without god" point of view.

If you think of it though, from the love can't exist without god, it somewhat makes sense. If god created the world and the world is created because of the love of god, what a part from the world that people can have that is not of god?

In order for love to exist apart from god is not defining god by love. How do you define god if god is not love itself?

It was said by @loverofhumanity that the foundation of religions is love, peace, compassion, and so forth. That compassion, from his interpretation of a Bahai, comes from god. He says that those who have not come to the Bahai faith yet will one day will to know this love through Bahaullah and god. He is comparing god to peace, love, and compassion.

Since an non-bahai hasn't got to that stage yet what type of love does he have until he gets to the Bahai definition of love?

Ardrian since you have a christian flair on this, maybe if god is the creator and love himself in a christian view of things, non christians actions and feelings are a reflection of god even though they don't realize it?

Personally, I would never think that but if I thought about it logically and what I experience in christianity, god isn't separate from his creation christian, bahai, or not.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Thanks again for the informed and rational response.

1) I tried to see teaching school like that ... a mutual thing. Certainly a few students taught me a lot. I do have moments when I feel compelled to share, but they're always when someone asks, usually at temple, or when I'm asked to host a group there. Some members of my sampradaya have held classes, and they put up a poster to announce it.

2) Certainly I don't think all faiths are wonderful either, but I don't think anyone out there is easily changed, until they have the realisation, 'Uh, oh, what am I doing?" Then they go looking, and yes they end up with the religion they deserve, for the most part. Baha'i' is most certainly a step up from the really dogma based stuff like radical Islam or fundamentalist Christianity. But I don't generalise either. There are many loving and tolerant Christian churches, and Islamic groups who willingly participate in interfaith diuscussions, for example.

Hi @Vinayaka ,

This post on another thread raised some interesting questions for me. For starters I was wondering about the Ethnic make up of Hindus. I looked this up and found according to one source that 94% of Hindus are of Indian descent. The spread of Hinduism throughout the globe has largely followed movements of Indian populations, like the indentured Indian workers in Fiji that we discussed another lifetime ago on this thread.

The teaching side of Hinduism in New Zealand seems to have been exclusively the domain of the Hare Krishnas. I have the impression from you and these simple observations that Hindus are not too concerned about teaching or promoting your religion in any proactive way. This is in stark contrast to the Abrahamic Faiths, particularly Christianity, Islam, and even the Baha'i faith that are very widespread. Even though the Baha'i faith has relatively small numbers we were considered by the Encyclopaedia Britannica in 1992 (one hundred years after Baha'u'llah passed on) to be the second most widespread religion in the world second only to Christianity. This of course is due to systematic and organised global teaching campaigns with the deployment of pioneers.

What are your thoughts and observations about Hinduism and promotion of your religion?

 

[sayak83]

What do the Baha'is believe regarding



Thank you for your questions. With regard to afterlife we do not belive in a bodily resurrection. Eternal life, yes.Baha'is believe hell and heaven are states of the soul. Heaven is nearness to God and hell is distance from God through obedience or disobedience to His laws and Teachings. But we believe in eternal life after death, that the soul progresses through many worlds of God. People are all asssessed as to the way they lived and and their station in the next world is determined by their deeds here.



We do not believe animals have souls




We are told 'Faith is fewness of words and abundance of deeds'. But that to believe and obey are 'twin, inseparable duties' and neither is acceptable without the other. Hell and heaven are viewed as spiritual conditions we achieve through our efforts or lack of efforts. We are told no soul will be treated unjustly. A person will be judged according to his deeds.



We believe that there was never a beginning and there will never be an end to existence. What does begin and end are cycles. One cycle beings and another ends or one universe dies and another is born but existence has always been and will always be. So the description in Holy Books of creation are describing the cycles when Manifestations appear.



We believe in evolution but that man was always man and did not evolve from the lower species. He was always man. Other than that we accept the scientific explanations that it was a long gradual process.



Miracles. Life is a miracle. It is a miracle to me how the elements combine perfectly and mathematically to produce a perfectly balanced nature and human being. The miracles of Prophets? Yes they are real but only for the people who are present at the time. Their real miracle is that they are able to transform people from sinners into saints.



Baha'is do not believe in the existence of evil. That it is really the absence of good just like darkness isn't an existence but the absence of light. A snake is evil in relation to man but in relation to another snake it is not. So all these terms are relative. We all have free will or freedom to choose our own destiny. Humans commit 'evil' deeds because of lack of spiritual education. God has foreknowledge of all that will occur but it is still up to us to make it happen and shape our own future. Man has always the choice to decide his own destiny. God has prior knowledge of what choice man will make but it is still man's decision to make and decide.



The one main way God interacts with the world according to Baha'is is that He sends us a Teacher, Prophets or Educators like Buddha or Christ for each age. Also, He leaves us a Holy Book or Teachings to help guide and inspire us spiritually. But then He leaves it up to us to decide how much of His advice and counsels we wish to follow or nine of them . It's all entirely up to us if we want to walk in God's ways or choose our own path.

Thank you for you kind questions. Many of these we can explore further and there are many Baha'i Writings that explain it far better than i but I have done my best to try and just answer your questions as simply as possible.

[/QUOTE]
The one thing that I do not understand is how is it possible for man to not evolve from earlier non human apes if he lived on earth much much later than when life first started. Do the Bahai think Man was specially put there on earth in the past quite apart from other animals. Do you reject the scientific evidence of human evolution from earlier apes.

Good and evil are clearly relative. Eating a cow is good for me but bad for the cow. Even for now, assuming that bad is absence of good, why is the world made such that such relative absences of good naturally occur. For example why is the world made such that viruses that kill us (malaria etc.) exist.

Are human souls created by God at every successful conception ? If so, and if God foreknows all that the man will do throughout his life, why did he choose to ensoul Hitler at conception?

Thanks

 

[Vinayaka]

Hi @Vinayaka ,

This post on another thread raised some interesting questions for me. For starters I was wondering about the Ethnic make up of Hindus. I looked this up and found according to one source that 94% of Hindus are of Indian descent. The spread of Hinduism throughout the globe has largely followed movements of Indian populations, like the indentured Indian workers in Fiji that we discussed another lifetime ago on this thread.

The teaching side of Hinduism in New Zealand seems to have been exclusively the domain of the Hare Krishnas. I have the impression from you and these simple observations that Hindus are not too concerned about teaching or promoting your religion in any proactive way. This is in stark contrast to the Abrahamic Faiths, particularly Christianity, Islam, and even the Baha'i faith that are very widespread. Even though the Baha'i faith has relatively small numbers we were considered by the Encyclopaedia Britannica in 1992 (one hundred years after Baha'u'llah passed on) to be the second most widespread religion in the world second only to Christianity. This of course is due to systematic and organised global teaching campaigns with the deployment of pioneers.

What are your thoughts and observations about Hinduism and promotion of your religion?

ISKCON does promote, but that's unusual. It has been argued that many converts to ISKCON came from an Abrahamic background, and brought the idea of proselytising with them. I'm not sure. Some other groups. mainly what I would call mass-marker Gurus also do a lot of promoting. Groups like the Art of Living (Sri Sri Ravi Shankar) Isha Foundation (Sadhguru) and others do promote their particular versions of Hinduism but for some odd reason don't call it Hinduism. So promotion is out there. Just not in the more orthodox sects like mine. We simply don't see change coming about in any real permanent way from a weekend seminar charging the people $300 a head. But what other 'Hindu' groups do with their time is up to them.

My sampradaya does have a large internet site called Himalayan Academy, but we don't do pop-up ads or anything like that. Still there are many free resources there, like introductory books, 9 facts about Hinduism and all that. there is an annual fundraising drive in order to hire a tech guy to set up the website, write the code and all that cool stuff.

If you want to see my version of Hinduism, this நியூசிலாந்து திருமுருகன் திருக்கோயில் - New Zealand Thirumurugan Temple would be the temple style to go to.

We do offer study programs for enrolled students and interested others, but it's certainly not a hard sell idea. People can and do study the basic course of Himalayan Academy called the Master Course. Currently it's a one and a half year program I think, and has changed through the years. But if the Guru comes to town, there would be a poster at the temple, but not all over the place, in all the Indian stores or stuff like that.

As far as promoting the faith goes, I believe Hinduism needs no promotion. It's age, endurance, wealth of wisdom, vastness, etc. is more or less enough. If someone gets interested there are lots of resources. But we're mostly all really secure in our faith, and pretty humble and patient about it. We see the world as in a perfect state of evolution, so in that sense nothing needs fixing. The natural evolution, impetus of God will have that change accordingly. Members of other faiths are fine being members of other faiths, that's what they are.

Generally I discourage people from looking into it too deeply. My Guru didn't accept converts from Abrahamism unless they really proved to Him, to themselves, and to their own religious leaders that they were Hindu by belief. It often created way too much confusion for the person, and since we believe in reincarnation wholeheartedly, maybe next lifetime they could get a birth more conducive to it.

Hinduism is very widespread now. But it hasn't been from proseltysing, but from immigration. US has over a thousand temples, they're all through Europe, in South America etc. This new technology has helped in the spread just as the sugar diaspora and indentured labour did 200 years back.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I'm used to the "You can't have love without god" point of view.

That is true, but you do not need to believe in God to love and be loved. Genuine love of God can assist us to genuinely love others. Love of one's religion can also do the opposite and cause prejudice and hate, in which case the religion has lost its essence. There is increasingly a disconnect between God and religion. It is simply one of a number of signs of the age we live in. Speaking from personal experience of protestant Christianity, sometimes its better to have nothing to do with a religion that causes prejudice and estrangement, rather than genuine love and fellowship.

If you think of it though, from the love can't exist without god, it somewhat makes sense. If god created the world and the world is created because of the love of god, what a part from the world that people can have that is not of god?

The reason God created us and creation is because of love. He loved creation and so He created us in His image to love. However we are living in an age of God's mercy so we are not aware of this need God loves us anyhow. There will come a time when we do need to be connected with God's love however.

In order for love to exist apart from god is not defining god by love. How do you define god if god is not love itself?

Part of love is biology, part social/culture, and part spiritual. We are often recipients of God's blessings and bestowals without being aware of it, because we live in a post-Christian culture (in New Zealand). However there is much social dysfunction, estrangement in families and the workplace, and breakdown of key relationships such as between spouses and parent/child bonds. There is much psychological dysfunction, antisocial behaviours, and addictions that are often a manifestation of the confused times we live in and lack of genuine spirituality.

It was said by @loverofhumanity that the foundation of religions is love, peace, compassion, and so forth. That compassion, from his interpretation of a Bahai, comes from god. He says that those who have not come to the Bahai faith yet will one day will to know this love through Bahaullah and god. He is comparing god to peace, love, and compassion.

That's reasonable. I would argue that many of us are more Baha'i than we think we are because the values of our communities such as the equality of men and women, oneness of humanity regardless of race, and social justice generally are all Baha'i principles.

Since an non-bahai hasn't got to that stage yet what type of love does he have until he gets to the Bahai definition of love?

It is important to understand that non-Baha'is are often better Baha'is than Baha'is and why that is. That might sound strange, but consider that God is everywhere and the influence of Baha'u'llahs revelation is all pervasive. Its influence had been there even before Baha'u'llah was born!

Ardrian since you have a christian flair on this, maybe if god is the creator and love himself in a christian view of things, non christians actions and feelings are a reflection of god even though they don't realize it?

That is right. It is all a reflection of the post-Christian world we live in.

Personally, I would never think that but if I thought about it logically and what I experience in christianity, god isn't separate from his creation christian, bahai, or not.

God is a paradox. He is both closer to us than our own life vein, and unknowable and incomprehensible to all.

 

[loverofhumanity]

@loverofhumanity

If you cannot say my belief is false politely, but then can disagree with it, isnt that the same as telling me what you believe is true without bluntly saying you dont believe anything opposed to it?

If you believe all religions have the same foundation, what is there to disagree with? And if you disagree, why do you disagree if you do not believe it is false?

I suppose putting forward my different views is my way of showing that we have a different way of seeing things in a civilised manner.

When I put forward a different viewpoint I try to avoid confrontation so I try to present it as 'sharing'. That way we can share and learn from each other in a friendly spirit.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The one thing that I do not understand is how is it possible for man to not evolve from earlier non human apes if he lived on earth much much later than when life first started. Do the Bahai think Man was specially put there on earth in the past quite apart from other animals. Do you reject the scientific evidence of human evolution from earlier apes.

I found a quote from Abdulbaha about evolution:

"The beginning of the existence of man on the terrestrial globe resembles his formation in the womb of the mother. The embryo in the womb of the mother gradually grows and develops until birth, after which it continues to grow and develop until it reaches the age of discretion and maturity. Though in infancy the signs of the mind and spirit appear in man, they do not reach the degree of perfection; they are imperfect. Only when man attains maturity do the mind and the spirit appear and become evident in utmost perfection.
So also the formation of man in the matrix of the world was in the beginning like the embryo; then gradually he made progress in perfectness, and grew and developed until he reached the state of maturity, when the mind and spirit became visible in the greatest power. In the beginning of his formation the mind and spirit also existed, but they were hidden; later they were manifested. In the womb of the world mind and spirit also existed in the embryo, but they were concealed; afterward they appeared. So it is that in the seed the tree exists, but it is hidden and concealed; when it develops and grows, the complete tree appears. In the same way the growth and development of all beings is gradual; this is the universal divine organization and the natural system. The seed does not at once become a tree; the embryo does not at once become a man; the mineral does not suddenly become a stone. No, they grow and develop gradually and attain the limit of perfection.
All beings, whether large or small, were created perfect and complete from the first, but their perfections appear in them by degrees. The organization of God is one; the evolution of existence is one; the divine system is one. Whether they be small or great beings, all are subject to one law and system. Each seed has in it from the first all the vegetable perfections. For example, in the seed all the vegetable perfections exist from the beginning, but not visibly; afterward little by little they appear. So it is first the shoot which appears from the seed, then the branches, leaves, blossoms and fruits; but from the beginning of its existence all these things are in the seed, potentially, though not apparently.
In the same way, the embryo possesses from the first all perfections, such as the spirit, the mind, the sight, the smell, the taste—in one word, all the powers—but they are not visible and become so only by degrees.
Similarly, the terrestrial globe from the beginning was created with all its elements, substances, minerals, atoms and organisms; but these only appeared by degrees: first the mineral, then the plant, afterward the animal, and finally man. But from the first these kinds and species existed, but were undeveloped in the terrestrial globe, and then appeared only gradually. For the supreme organization of God, and the universal natural system, surround all beings, and all are subject to this rule. When you consider this universal system, you see that there is not one of the beings which at its coming into existence has reached the limit of perfection. No, they gradually grow and develop, and then attain the degree of perfection.
"(`Abdu’l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions, p. 199)

Good and evil are clearly relative. Eating a cow is good for me but bad for the cow. Even for now, assuming that bad is absence of good, why is the world made such that such relative absences of good naturally occur. For example why is the world made such that viruses that kill us (malaria etc.) exist.

Are human souls created by God at every successful conception ? If so, and if God foreknows all that the man will do throughout his life, why did he choose to ensoul Hitler at conception?

Thanks

So, in Baha'i View all people are created good and at the time of birth, they are all good. It is afterward, and through their free will, they may take the wrong path.
I believe that God created the world, including light and darkness, and then given to everyone free Will. He has send Messengers as guidance, teaching people what Path is Light, and What path is darkness. Then it is up to every person which path they want to take.
I remember I read a quote from Abdulbaha a while ago, which could be applicable. He has said, just as in this world everything is needed, such as stone, wood, plants, animals, different humans, in the next world, which is a spiritual World, different levels of Souls are needed. Thus, even a soul like Hitler is needed, and it may be likened to how wood is used in this world for burning and fire.

 

[Vinayaka]

It is important to understand that non-Baha'is are often better Baha'is than Baha'is and why that is. That might sound strange, but consider that God is everywhere and the influence of Baha'u'llahs revelation is all pervasive. Its influence had been there even before Baha'u'llah was born!

And this is where you lose me, and I suspect many others. Are you seriously suggesting that Gandhi, Martin Luther King, all the ancient peace advocates, all non-Baha'i' lovers of peace like the Hindus, the Buddhists, many Christians, many Muslims, many atheists, the hippies, and more are only that way because of your prophet's all-pervasiveness?

Do you understand one iota of how condescending and egotistical that sounds?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That is true, but you do not need to believe in God to love and be loved. Genuine love of God can assist us to genuinely love others. Love of one's religion can also do the opposite and cause prejudice and hate, in which case the religion has lost its essence. There is increasingly a disconnect between God and religion. It is simply one of a number of signs of the age we live in. Speaking from personal experience of protestant Christianity, sometimes its better to have nothing to do with a religion that causes prejudice and estrangement, rather than genuine love and fellowship.

I'm getting two different messages. When one doesn't have the genuine love of god, what does a person have? (Playing devil's advocate christian)

Religion brings people together as a spiritual community where, in this case, the love of god is the foundation of it. It's what lets people practice together, bring their traditions from old, to today, and to the future. It's what keeps people alive. It's defined by the people's spiritual engagement with god (in this case), with their brothers and sisters, and their environment.

Anything outside of that isn't religion. But a lot of people are loners in their spirituality.

The reason God created us and creation is because of love. He loved creation and so He created us in His image to love. However we are living in an age of God's mercy so we are not aware of this need God loves us anyhow. There will come a time when we do need to be connected with God's love however.

This doesn't reflect what you said above (and below). God-believers are created by god and live in the age of god's mercy, etc. If love/god can exist separate from god, the rest of us would not need to be aware of god to know this type of love. There will not become a time when we do need to be connected with god if what you are saying is correct that people can find love without god.

Right?

Part of love is biology, part social/culture, and part spiritual. We are often recipients of God's blessings and bestowals without being aware of it, because we live in a post-Christian culture (in New Zealand). However there is much social dysfunction, estrangement in families and the workplace, and breakdown of key relationships such as between spouses and parent/child bonds. There is much psychological dysfunction, antisocial behaviours, and addictions that are often a manifestation of the confused times we live in and lack of genuine spirituality.

Many christians separate spiritual/god's love from biological love. For example, a person can feel love for their wife or husband, but if they are not Catholic/Christian they would not experience the love of god because they are not in communion with the Church (Body/Mass of believers) who, as in Mass, makes christ present. In another kind of love is christians who base their life on scripture. Basically, it's the consensus if you don't know god of scripture, you don't know the love of god.

In this case, love of god would be the geinue love you talk about. However, you say that there will be a time that one becomes connected to god.

So what type of love does one have who is not yet connected to god? (Key: If, in deed, it is the same god that christians and bahai have)

That's reasonable. I would argue that many of us are more Baha'i than we think we are because the values of our communities such as the equality of men and women, oneness of humanity regardless of race, and social justice generally are all Baha'i principles.

I can see that. We are all human. I just promote respect in boundaries rather than finding overlaps.

It is important to understand that non-Baha'is are often better Baha'is than Baha'is and why that is. That might sound strange, but consider that God is everywhere and the influence of Baha'u'llahs revelation is all pervasive. Its influence had been there even before Baha'u'llah was born!

I wouldn't know. Christians say that some non-christians are better christians then their peers. Some are more Catholic than Catholics. I mean, many people think I'm still Catholic here but I feel that's the case only because I came in the Church young and have more reflective look at Church rituals compared to one who is dependant on rituals and see no other truth outside the body of christ.

That is right. It is all a reflection of the post-Christian world we live in.

God is a paradox. He is both closer to us than our own life vein, and unknowable and incomprehensible to all.

Why so mystical?

One thing I love about the Church is god isn't made mystical. Unlike Orthodox who says the Eucharist can't be described, the Roman Catholics have ways of explaining the nature of the body of christ and the meaning of his presence in the last meal he gave that brought people together in one Mass.

In other words, god is pretty simple to explain. I mean, when I first practiced with SGI (Nichiren Buddhism) and explained about the Gohonzon, one of my friends looked at me and said "you got it!?" she was surprised I "got it" the experience of spirituality so fast when I haven't practiced in SGI no more than a week or so.

Spirituality isn't hard to understand. Why is the unseen better than the seen? ;P

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I suppose putting forward my different views is my way of showing that we have a different way of seeing things in a civilised manner.

When I put forward a different viewpoint I try to avoid confrontation so I try to present it as 'sharing'. That way we can share and learn from each other in a friendly spirit.

Do you feel we are seeing the same thing just seeing it in different viewpoints?

Telling someone what you don't believe isn't confrontation. Do you express anything you don't believe even if it's to say to someone, "I don't like the color red on you, maybe wear color green"?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

.

So what type of love does one have who is not yet connected to god? (Key: If, in deed, it is the same god that christians and bahai have)

But in Baha'i View, The Essence of God is unknown. We only know God's attributes. What is meant by God's attributes are: All-Knowing, the Most Kind, The Most generous, The Truth, The Just, the Loving....etc.

So, as you see, even if a person does not literally believe in existence of a God, she/he may still Love these attributes. they would still Love, Kindness, forgiveness, Truthfulness, patience, Knowledge...etc.
Loving these good qualities is to Love of God. Why would God care, if a person believe He exist or not, when God is self subsisting?

Jesus said the same thing:

"On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you."

How could He be in the Father, His Apostles be in Jesus, and Jesus in them, and Father in them?

Jesus is speaking of the good attributes, as the definition of 'Being'. If these attributes which are attributes of the Father, is also in Jesus, and also in His disciples, and that is how their Reality of Being is defined, then it can be said, They all in each other.

 

[CG Didymus]

...1) When every Human passes from this world, they pass into the Spiritual Worlds of God in a condition they have obtained to while upon this earth. Heaven is nearness to God and Hell is remoteness from God.

2) All kindness must be shown to all animals upon this earth, as to the progress of the animal soul after death I have not read upon this subject to date.

7) Evil really does not exist. Evil is only the absence of Good. Nature has a balance that when tipped rights itself by natural Laws, Man is part of this system and has added many artificial changes into this balance, nature is now well out of balance. With mankind and his God given Free Will choices, all goodness is the choice to Live by the Virtues, Laws and Will of God. The levels of Evil are how much we choose not to follow God, His Virtues and His Laws. This world is one of Crisis and Victory of Love and Pain, it is what this life offers to understand what is Love.

Point 1 already contradicts beliefs of other religions. Why didn't the different manifestations get their "facts" straight before they told people what the afterlife was like? Would it have been that difficult to say "No, there is no reincarnation." And, "No, there is no bodily resurrection where the believers in Jesus go to Heaven and the non-believers go to hell." Why not until Baha'u'llah are these things made clear?


Nearness to God is heaven and remoteness from God is hell? So people get one chance at this life. So many different circumstances. So many difficulties and challenges some people have to face... and that determines how near or far they will be from God? So what is the absolute most a person can be from God when they die? And what will that place be like? How different is that place from the Christian hell?

Point 2: Loverofhumanity says that Baha'is don't believe animals have souls. So, if that is correct, then God can and did create intelligent lifeforms and not give them souls. They live and die and that's it? But why did he create harmful lifeforms?

And your Point 7: Does evil exist in the heart of man? Do people have a tendency toward selfishness... putting ones own best interests first? Is that evil? Do people get angry and even hate other? Do they get jealous or envious? Are those real things? Are they evil?

Thanks Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

But in Baha'i View, The Essence of God is unknown. We only know God's attributes. What is meant by God's attributes are: All-Knowing, the Most Kind, The Most generous, The Truth, The Just, the Loving....etc.

So, as you see, even if a person does not literally believe in existence of a God, she/he may still Love these attributes. they would still Love, Kindness, forgiveness, Truthfulness, patience, Knowledge...etc.
Loving these good qualities is to Love of God. Why would God care, if a person believe He exist or not, when God is self subsisting?

Jesus said the same thing:

"On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you."

How could He be in the Father, His Apostles be in Jesus, and Jesus in them, and Father in them?

Jesus is speaking of the good attributes, as the definition of 'Being'. If these attributes which are attributes of the Father, is also in Jesus, and also in His disciples, and that is how their Reality of Being is defined, then it can be said, They all in each other.

I was explaining to @loverofhumanity this in different words. Instead of attributes, I used expressions. Since I believe a person are their expressions and are a reflection of how they express themselves, love and kindness would be god and is a reflection of god. Since atheists do not know the god, the kindness and love they receive would be different by definition.

-

The expressions are different (regardless of similar name) because the source is different.

Love for a christian is different than love for an atheist. The source is different therefore the definitions of the attributes whether you call it kindness or bashachi.

Kindness is a word. There are different definitions of the word because they come from different sources. We don't share sources so we don't share attributes we just learn to live together hopefully even though our cultures, language, and traditions are different than the person next to us.

 

[Dawnofhope]

And this is where you lose me, and I suspect many others. Are you seriously suggesting that Gandhi, Martin Luther King, all the ancient peace advocates, all non-Baha'i' lovers of peace like the Hindus, the Buddhists, many Christians, many Muslims, many atheists, the hippies, and more are only that way because of your prophet's all-pervasiveness?

Do you understand one iota of how condescending and egotistical that sounds?

Lets take Baha'u'llah out of the equation for a moment.

How many social commentators would doubt that we have entered into a new era of human history permeated by ideals and values different from the past?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I was explaining to @loverofhumanity this in different words. Instead of attributes, I used expressions. Since I believe a person are their expressions and are a reflection of how they express themselves, love and kindness would be god and is a reflection of god. Since atheists do not know the god, the kindness and love they receive would be different by definition.

-

The expressions are different (regardless of similar name) because the source is different.

Love for a christian is different than love for an atheist. The source is different therefore the definitions of the attributes whether you call it kindness or bashachi.

Kindness is a word. There are different definitions of the word because they come from different sources. We don't share sources so we don't share attributes we just learn to live together hopefully even though our cultures, language, and traditions are different than the person next to us.

ok, but regardless of belief in a God or not, kindness is kindness, right? Let's use the word non-materialistic qualities. regardless if people believe in existence of a God, they will all love these non-materialistic qualities.
In my view as a Baha'is, that is how I see, how much love a person has for God. So, it is obvious that, a person firmly believes in existence of a God, yet, that person may not love these good qualities, and even shows how much cruelty and ignorance. But, there could be people who do not believe in existence of a God, yet, they may love these good qualities, and express them in their lives toward others. In Baha'i view, the latter is acceptable, not the former.