How are these Great Beings explained?

[Unveiled Artist]

ok, but regardless of belief in a God or not, kindness is kindness, right? Let's use the word non-materialistic qualities. regardless if people believe in existence of a God, they will all love these non-materialistic qualities.

No. Kindness from god is different depending on the god of that said religion. Kindness, in a general sense, has nothing to do with god. Yes, they are both positive and they are different.

Most god believes can't define kindness outside of god. If they do, it's superficial kindness or lesser (or not the same as god-kindness). They put it at a lower level. If the kindness that an atheist has is the same as one who believes in god, why be a god-believer and why would an atheist want to be a believer?

In my view as a Baha'is, that is how I see, how much love a person has for God. So, it is obvious that, a person firmly believes in existence of a God, yet, that person may not love these good qualities, and even shows how much cruelty and ignorance. But, there could be people who do not believe in existence of a God, yet, they may love these good qualities, and express them in their lives toward others. In Baha'i view, the latter is acceptable, not the former.

Many god-believers believe the latter. That is what I'm used to. Not all Bahai agree, though. Bahai, Christianity, Muslim, Judaism, and so forth are I-have-the-truth faiths. If not, it wouldn't matter former or latter.

Just I'm glad that you can take a side. It's giving me mixed signals though. Can Bahai take sides or are they strictly universal?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

No. Kindness from god is different depending on the god of that said religion. Kindness, in a general sense, has nothing to do with god. Yes, they are both positive and they are different.

Most god believes can't define kindness outside of god. If they do, it's superficial kindness or lesser (or not the same as god-kindness). They put it at a lower level. If the kindness that an atheist has is the same as one who believes in god, why be a god-believer and why would an atheist want to be a believer?



Many god-believers believe the latter. That is what I'm used to. Not all Bahai agree, though. Bahai, Christianity, Muslim, Judaism, and so forth are I-have-the-truth faiths. If not, it wouldn't matter former or latter.

Just I'm glad that you can take a side. It's giving me mixed signals though. Can Bahai take sides or are they strictly universal?

It is not about taking sides. Everything has a logical reason.

I have to quote from Abdulbaha:

"Therefore, reflect that different peoples of the world are revolving around imaginations and are worshipers of the idols of thoughts and conjectures. They are not aware of this; they consider their imaginations to be the Reality (i.e. God) which is withdrawn from all comprehension and purified from all descriptions. They regard themselves as the people of Unity, and the others as worshipers of idols; but idols at least have a mineral existence, while the idols of thoughts and the imaginations of man are but fancies; they have not even mineral existence. “Take heed ye who are endued with discernment.”
Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 146-150

It is obvious that Abdulbaha is saying, imagining a God in the mind is even more false than Idol Worshiping.


When asked on one occasion: “What is a Bahá’í?” ‘Abdu’l-Bahá replied: “To be a Bahá’í simply means to love all the world; to love humanity and try to serve it; to work for universal peace and universal brotherhood.” On another occasion He defined a Bahá’í as “one endowed with all the perfections of man in activity.” In one of His London talks He said that a man may be a Bahá’í even if He has never heard the name of Bahá’u’lláh. He added:—
The man who lives the life according to the teachings of Bahá’u’lláh is already a Bahá’í. On the other hand, a man may call himself a Bahá’í for fifty years, and if he does not live the life he is not a Bahá’í. An ugly man may call himself handsome, but he deceives no one, and a black man may call himself white, yet he deceives no one, not even himself.
One who does not know God’s Messengers, however, is like a plant growing in the shade. Although it knows not the sun, it is, nevertheless, absolutely dependent on it. The great Prophets are spirits suns, and Bahá’u’lláh is the sun of this “day” in which we live. The suns of former days have warmed and vivified the world, and had those suns not shone, the earth would not be cold and dead, but it is the sunshine of today that alone can ripen the fruits which the suns of former days have kissed into life.
Bahá'í Reference Library - Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, Pages 71-72

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Point 1 already contradicts beliefs of other religions. Why didn't the different manifestations get their "facts" straight before they told people what the afterlife was like? Would it have been that difficult to say "No, there is no reincarnation." And, "No, there is no bodily resurrection where the believers in Jesus go to Heaven and the non-believers go to hell." Why not until Baha'u'llah are these things made clear?

When I read the scriptures I see they are saying the same thing, but with a different frame of reference. The concept is given to each audience in a way that takes effort to consider the spiritual implications. Christ explains this in John 16:12 & 13 "12I still have much to tell you, but you cannot yet bear to hear it. 13However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come.…"

Christ says in John 6:63"The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you--they are full of the Spirit and life."

Of course there is lots more to consider with this.

Nearness to God is heaven and remoteness from God is hell? So people get one chance at this life. So many different circumstances. So many difficulties and challenges some people have to face... and that determines how near or far they will be from God? So what is the absolute most a person can be from God when they die? And what will that place be like? How different is that place from the Christian hell?

Yes we are given this life is to grow our spiritual Limbs which are the Virtues, this with the Bounty and Grace of God for each individual. The key to begin the journey is this quote from the Hidden Words; "O SON OF SPIRIT! My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, kindly and radiant heart, that thine may be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable and everlasting."

Baha’u’llah writes, “‘Where is Paradise, and where is Hell?’ Say: ‘The one is reunion with Me; the other thine own self. . . .’” – Tablets of Baha’u’llah, p. 118.

Abdul'baha explained it in this way; "Man is in the highest degree of materiality, and at the beginning of spirituality—that is to say, he is the end of imperfection and the beginning of perfection. He is at the last degree of darkness, and at the beginning of light; that is why it has been said that the condition of man is the end of the night and the beginning of day, meaning that he is the sum of all the degrees of imperfection, and that he possesses the degrees of perfection. He has the animal side as well as the angelic side, and the aim of an educator is to so train human souls that their angelic aspect may overcome their animal side..." Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 235-237

Point 2: Loverofhumanity says that Baha'is don't believe animals have souls. So, if that is correct, then God can and did create intelligent lifeforms and not give them souls. They live and die and that's it? But why did he create harmful lifeforms?

Animals do not have rational Souls, this has been given to men, Abdul'baha explains it this way in Some Answered Questions, p. 208:

“The animal spirit is the power of all the senses, which is realized from the composition and mingling of elements; when this composition decomposes, the power also perishes and becomes annihilated. It may be likened to this lamp: when the oil, wick and fire are combined, it is lighted; and when this combination is dissolved -- that is to say, when the combined parts are separated from one another -- the lamp also is extinguished.”

This is a discussion on this topic - Do Animals go to Heaven - Baha'i Library Forum

And your Point 7: Does evil exist in the heart of man? Do people have a tendency toward selfishness... putting ones own best interests first? Is that evil? Do people get angry and even hate other? Do they get jealous or envious? Are those real things? Are they evil?

To me the concept can be considered that evil exists when we let it be so. Yes man is drawn to this material world and his own self. It takes education and continued effort to work toward the Virtues of God Within Him, as quoted above, "He is at the last degree of darkness, and at the beginning of light". We have to accept and reflect that light.

All these questions can be answered in multiple ways, I hope these replies help in some way. Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It is not about taking sides. Everything has a logical reason.

I have to quote from Abdulbaha:

"Therefore, reflect that different peoples of the world are revolving around imaginations and are worshipers of the idols of thoughts and conjectures. They are not aware of this; they consider their imaginations to be the Reality (i.e. God) which is withdrawn from all comprehension and purified from all descriptions. They regard themselves as the people of Unity, and the others as worshipers of idols; but idols at least have a mineral existence, while the idols of thoughts and the imaginations of man are but fancies; they have not even mineral existence. “Take heed ye who are endued with discernment.”
Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 146-150

It is obvious that Abdulbaha is saying, imagining a God in the mind is even more false than Idol Worshiping.


When asked on one occasion: “What is a Bahá’í?” ‘Abdu’l-Bahá replied: “To be a Bahá’í simply means to love all the world; to love humanity and try to serve it; to work for universal peace and universal brotherhood.” On another occasion He defined a Bahá’í as “one endowed with all the perfections of man in activity.” In one of His London talks He said that a man may be a Bahá’í even if He has never heard the name of Bahá’u’lláh. He added:—
The man who lives the life according to the teachings of Bahá’u’lláh is already a Bahá’í. On the other hand, a man may call himself a Bahá’í for fifty years, and if he does not live the life he is not a Bahá’í. An ugly man may call himself handsome, but he deceives no one, and a black man may call himself white, yet he deceives no one, not even himself.
One who does not know God’s Messengers, however, is like a plant growing in the shade. Although it knows not the sun, it is, nevertheless, absolutely dependent on it. The great Prophets are spirits suns, and Bahá’u’lláh is the sun of this “day” in which we live. The suns of former days have warmed and vivified the world, and had those suns not shone, the earth would not be cold and dead, but it is the sunshine of today that alone can ripen the fruits which the suns of former days have kissed into life.
Bahá'í Reference Library - Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, Pages 71-72

I need your expression here. Without it, it's confusing.

You don't take sides, but you have a distinct definition of who Bahai isn't (as well as what idolism is) and what it is not (by default even though you don't say it). Then, you have a universal goal of working for world peace and everyone who works towards it can be Bahai. So, the latter isn't taking a side as the former. Taking a side isn't bad. It just means you have an opinion. A lot of people do.

Bahaullah is pretty distinct in his views of world peace. If it were not, you would not need Bahaullah nor need to be Bahai. So, the overlap is confusing.

Why consider yourself a Bahai if you don't need to be one to have world peace?

What about Bahai that is more fulfilling than joining an organization that has the same purpose without the foundation of a prophet, god, and any other manifestation (since anyone working towards world peace can be bahai)?

 

[Dawnofhope]

I'm getting two different messages. When one doesn't have the genuine love of god, what does a person have? (Playing devil's advocate christian)

Everyone has the genuine love of God. If we didn't, we wouldn't exist.

Religion brings people together as a spiritual community where, in this case, the love of god is the foundation of it. It's what lets people practice together, bring their traditions from old, to today, and to the future. It's what keeps people alive. It's defined by the people's spiritual engagement with god (in this case), with their brothers and sisters, and their environment.

That's true, but from a Baha'i perspective its no longer sufficient. Consider Germany prior to the election of Hitler. Approximately 95% of the population would have considered themselves as being Christian (about 50% were Catholic). Although there were examples of outstanding heroism from those that stood up to Hitler, the churches were largely complicit or turned a blind eye in his rise to power and with the resulting atrocities. A community in this day comprises peoples from different cultures and religions. Sometimes exclusivity comes at a cost. On the other hand I would not suggest for one moment a comparison to the Catholic church in your community with those in Germany. I use the example to raise the question as to the benefits that faith communities provide for the community. Sometimes they have no real impact and its like the froth on the ocean.

Anything outside of that isn't religion. But a lot of people are loners in their spirituality.

I think you are restricting religion.

This doesn't reflect what you said above (and below). God-believers are created by god and live in the age of god's mercy, etc. If love/god can exist separate from god, the rest of us would not need to be aware of god to know this type of love. There will not become a time when we do need to be connected with god if what you are saying is correct that people can find love without god.

Right?

The reality is that we are all interconnected and live in a culture whether we acknowledge it or not, whether we wish to be part of it, or not. God exists independent in our belief in Him.

Many christians separate spiritual/god's love from biological love. For example, a person can feel love for their wife or husband, but if they are not Catholic/Christian they would not experience the love of god because they are not in communion with the Church (Body/Mass of believers) who, as in Mass, makes christ present. In another kind of love is christians who base their life on scripture. Basically, it's the consensus if you don't know god of scripture, you don't know the love of god.

In this case, love of god would be the geinue love you talk about. However, you say that there will be a time that one becomes connected to god.

So what type of love does one have who is not yet connected to god? (Key: If, in deed, it is the same god that christians and bahai have)

A person can love his spouse and God. There is no separation.

The Church is not necessary to have communion with God, and in fact may become a barrier in some instances.

Love without God will eventually falter and fail. It is a transient.

I can see that. We are all human. I just promote respect in boundaries rather than finding overlaps.

It is not for us to define the boundaries but God who is All-Loving, Just, All-Power and Omnipotent.

I wouldn't know. Christians say that some non-christians are better christians then their peers. Some are more Catholic than Catholics. I mean, many people think I'm still Catholic here but I feel that's the case only because I came in the Church young and have more reflective look at Church rituals compared to one who is dependant on rituals and see no other truth outside the body of christ.

I feel you are more Catholic than you think.

Why so mystical?

One thing I love about the Church is god isn't made mystical. Unlike Orthodox who says the Eucharist can't be described, the Roman Catholics have ways of explaining the nature of the body of christ and the meaning of his presence in the last meal he gave that brought people together in one Mass.

In other words, god is pretty simple to explain. I mean, when I first practiced with SGI (Nichiren Buddhism) and explained about the Gohonzon, one of my friends looked at me and said "you got it!?" she was surprised I "got it" the experience of spirituality so fast when I haven't practiced in SGI no more than a week or so.

Spirituality isn't hard to understand. Why is the unseen better than the seen? ;P

Every true religion has a degree of mysticism, including the Catholic church no doubt. Connecting with that mystery is central to our purpose in life.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I need your expression here. Without it, it's confusing.

You don't take sides, but you have a distinct definition of who Bahai isn't (as well as what idolism is) and what it is not (by default even though you don't say it). Then, you have a universal goal of working for world peace and everyone who works towards it can be Bahai. So, the latter isn't taking a side as the former. Taking a side isn't bad. It just means you have an opinion. A lot of people do.

Bahaullah is pretty distinct in his views of world peace. If it were not, you would not need Bahaullah nor need to be Bahai. So, the overlap is confusing.

Why consider yourself a Bahai if you don't need to be one to have world peace?

What about Bahai that is more fulfilling than joining an organization that has the same purpose without the foundation of a prophet, god, and any other manifestation (since anyone working towards world peace can be bahai)?

It is actually not very confusing.
To me, Bahaullah is a Teacher. For instance He teaches having a pure heart is what we all need to have.
So, He has brought a set of teachings, and this one was an example.
He says, the betterment of the World depends on His teachings, and that includes World Peace.
Consider that, you do not have to be a member of Baha'i Faith, or believe that Baha'u'llah is a Manifestation of God, in order to agree or learn that we should all try to posses a pure heart.
Another example, Baha'u'llah teaches abandoning all types of fanaticism is required to establish a better world.
To me, as a Bahai I believe Baha'u'llah is like the Sun. His light will make the World bright, regardless if people believe in Him, because His teachings will enlighten the World, regardless if people accept, the Source of enlightening was Him or not. Because the ideas get spread and will effect the world, and as a matter of fact Baha'is believe the fast changes in the world, since the 19th century is related to this new Revelation.

 

[Vinayaka]

Lets take Baha'u'llah out of the equation for a moment.

How many social commentators would doubt that we have entered into a new era of human history permeated by ideals and values different from the past?

Total change of topic, but okay?
Nobody would doubt social change. It is occurring all the time, part of a natural progression of the universe. But to credit it all to one person seems a bit much, no?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Everyone has the genuine love of God. If we didn't, we wouldn't exist.

That is my point. How can love exist for people who do not believe god exists?

Assuming that other people can hold things true not just bahai.

That's true, but from a Baha'i perspective its no longer sufficient

That would mean if I were a practicing Catholic my religion is no longer sufficiant to my spiritual growth?

I think you are restricting religion.

Religion is about person and community. If you think its no longer sufficient, youre taking peoples spirituality away.

The reality is that we are all interconnected and live in a culture whether we acknowledge it or not, whether we wish to be part of it, or not. God exists independent in our belief in Him.

That is your belief. I mean, I can play devils advocate and think of actual truth and fact as a muslim, hindu, buddhist, or baptist. Think outdide the box.

Love without God will eventually falter and fail. It is a transient.

Wait. You said people can have love without god.

I feel you are more Catholic than you think.

Catholic means a person whp is communion with the body and sacraments. I am no longer in the physical body because I dont attend mass nor do I take the sacraments. So Im catholic by sacrament not by faith.

 

[Vinayaka]

He says, the betterment of the World depends on His teachings, and that includes World Peace.

This is where people of other faiths differ. Many people are trying to bring world peace. There are peace movements all over the place, hundreds of them. Good worldwide groups like Doctors without Borders,. Amnesty International, UNICEF, various branches of the UN, and many many more. None of them believe Baha'u'llah has anything to do with it. Do any of these groups insist that their way, and their way alone is the only way to world peace? Not that I know of.

But you said 'the betterment of the World DEPENDS (caps mine) on His teachings. In other words, if it wasn't for Baha'u'llah, absolutely none of this other stuff would be happening.

Not only is this a very exclusive idea, it turns its back and insults every other good minded organisation out there, telling them something that simply isn't true, in their hearts and souls. It totally undermines any ideas of unity, harmony with other faiths, and all that. Worse, it doesn't give credit where credit is due. In fact, it STEALS the credit, or attempts to.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Do you feel we are seeing the same thing just seeing it in different viewpoints?

Telling someone what you don't believe isn't confrontation. Do you express anything you don't believe even if it's to say to someone, "I don't like the color red on you, maybe wear color green"?

I think that words are often misinterpreted and that we maybe understanding the same thing but expressing ourselves differently about it.

Let's take a cup of coffe. You may say it's black, I may say it feels hot and another person may comment on how it smells awesome and we can all argue our 3 descriptions but really we are all right.

You are more than likely seeing an aspect of reality I can't see so I need to learn that from you not dispute it with you, otherwise I'll remain dumb forever. Every human being on this planet is precious and has hidden gems of knowledge and wisdom for us to learn from. And I learn a lot from you and I'm grateful.

As to the colour red or if someone wears a colour I'm not used to - why can't I just be like Seven of Nine and say 'I will adapt'???

 

[loverofhumanity]

The one thing that I do not understand is how is it possible for man to not evolve from earlier non human apes if he lived on earth much much later than when life first started. Do the Bahai think Man was specially put there on earth in the past quite apart from other animals. Do you reject the scientific evidence of human evolution from earlier apes.

Good and evil are clearly relative. Eating a cow is good for me but bad for the cow. Even for now, assuming that bad is absence of good, why is the world made such that such relative absences of good naturally occur. For example why is the world made such that viruses that kill us (malaria etc.) exist.

Are human souls created by God at every successful conception ? If so, and if God foreknows all that the man will do throughout his life, why did he choose to ensoul Hitler at conception?

Thanks[/QUOTE]

Thanks again for your good questions. I will try to answer as best I can from what I know of the Baha'i teachings.

Even if man once walked on all fours this is not proof of transmigration of species. If you look at the human embryo it resembles nothing of a human being at first but as it grows and develops it becomes clear it is a distinct species apart from the animals.

An embryo develops and changes so much that it is unrecognisable when you compare it's beginning to its full maturity yet did it transmigrate? No it only developed and changed in form but from the beginning it was always human.

So in the world, the human species may have had a tail or looked like an ape but its species and embryo was always human therefore a human was the result and not an ape. Also, spiritually, man possesses rational consciousness , a soul and the ability to read, write and study the sciences and the universe as well as pray and worship God.

My understanding is this world is made in such a way for our education. Baha'u'llah confirms this in the Hidden Words..

O SON OF BOUNTY! Out of the wastes of nothingness, with the clay of My command I made thee to appear, and have ordained for thy training every atom in existence and the essence of all created things.

We learn either through obedience to God's laws or through our own mistakes. It's always our choice to choose our own path.

The last sentence of this Hidden Word explains to me your last question.

It was humanity not God, through its own choice which installed Hitler. The Germans wanted him in power and he was allowed to do what he did from support by the people.

Yet a century before, God had sent Baha'u'llah to warn humanity to unite or face disaster but God doesn't make the choices for us. We made the choice to neglect His Guidance sent by Baha'u'llah before any of the world wars. And the result was a holocaust.

And yet heedless thou didst remain, and when fully grown, thou didst neglect all My bounties and occupied thyself with thine idle imaginings, in such wise that thou didst become wholly forgetful, and, turning away from the portals of the Friend didst abide within the courts of My enemy.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

This is where people of other faiths differ. Many people are trying to bring world peace. There are peace movements all over the place, hundreds of them. Good worldwide groups like Doctors without Borders,. Amnesty International, UNICEF, various branches of the UN, and many many more. None of them believe Baha'u'llah has anything to do with it. Do any of these groups insist that their way, and their way alone is the only way to world peace? Not that I know of.

But you said 'the betterment of the World DEPENDS (caps mine) on His teachings. In other words, if it wasn't for Baha'u'llah, absolutely none of this other stuff would be happening.

Not only is this a very exclusive idea, it turns its back and insults every other good minded organisation out there, telling them something that simply isn't true, in their hearts and souls. It totally undermines any ideas of unity, harmony with other faiths, and all that. Worse, it doesn't give credit where credit is due. In fact, it STEALS the credit, or attempts to.

The Bahais believe God creates human civilizations, everytime a new Manifestation appears. They accept this because they believe in Bahaullah. According to Scriptures of World Religions, when the Promised One comes, He makes a new world. According to Scriptures of Religions, The old world was to last 6000 years, and after the End of the cycle of 6000 years, a new world to come. Bahai Writings state, the 6000 years which had begun from Days of Adam ended in year 1844, when the Bab proclaimed. Then Bahaullah's mission marked the beginning of a new Cycle. If we look at our history, most people agree that since 19th century, a new Era began, regardless if they believe in Religions or not. In fact when Bahaullah appeared He prophesied the New World is come, and soon we all will see how everything is made new. Abdulbaha then interpreted this prophecy farther as follows:
Now the new age is here and creation is reborn. Humanity hath taken on new life. The autumn hath gone by, and the reviving spring is here. All things are now made new. Arts and industries have been reborn, there are new discoveries in science, and there are new inventions; even the details of human affairs, such as dress and personal effects—even weapons—all these have likewise been renewed. The laws and procedures of every government have been revised. Renewal is the order of the day.
And all this newness hath its source in the fresh outpourings of wondrous grace and favour from the Lord of the Kingdom, which have renewed the world. The people, therefore, must be set completely free from their old patterns of thought, that all their attention may be focused upon these new principles, for these are the light of this time and the very spirit of this age.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Pages 252-253

 

[Unveiled Artist]

As to the colour red or if someone wears a colour I'm not used to - why can't I just be like Seven of Nine and say 'I will adapt'???

It is just a strict and distinct question of is it confrontational to say you do not like the color dress one is wearing and they should wear another color?

If it is confrontational, how so?

 

[CG Didymus]

Lets take Baha'u'llah out of the equation for a moment.

How many social commentators would doubt that we have entered into a new era of human history permeated by ideals and values different from the past?

But... there's the negative side. A new era in mass consumption and exploitation of the environment and people. New technology that is driven by bettering humanity or just as much or more in finding better ways to blow them up?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

But... there's the negative side. A new era in mass consumption and exploitation of the environment and people. New technology that is driven by bettering humanity or just as much or more in finding better ways to blow them up?

It is not all negative. Consider for instance, 100 years ago, no woman had the right to vote, even in USA or Europe. A little bit, before, the Salves were Lawful everywhere. There are many human right organizations. The technology is useful...this internet allows all people to communicate, and share knowledge...
The Spiritual Teachings are given. God has done His part...let's see when we people of the world will be able to take advantage of the Teachings of Bahaullah and make a better World. We cannot expect God, do all the Works for us, and somehow miraculously change the earth to Heaven. We need to do it, by following His guidance. God has given all the tools humanity need. Now, humanity must rise and work.

 

[CG Didymus]

When I read the scriptures I see they are saying the same thing, but with a different frame of reference. ...I hope these replies help in some way. Regards Tony

I know it's difficult to answer these types of questions. Unfortunately this thread is proof that the answers aren't getting to the core of the question. They circle it and take a piece of it, but never give a complete answer.

So, back to the beginning. The manifestation knows the exact truth from God. He teaches people what they need to know to advance to the next level. Each religion progresses neatly and precisely into the next. No, they don't. So Baha'is explain why. People add traditions and misinterpretations to the teachings.

Or, each religion is separate. They taught different things at different times. Some religions had gods and demons and god/men, but we don't believe those religions. We call them mythological. But, every religion is filled with mythic types of events. Could the religion be nothing more then a spiritual construct of the people and culture from where they came?

The definitions of who the gods or God is would be different. What to do in this life would be different. And what happens after a person dies would be different. Isn't that what we see? This would be using the science of Anthropology wouldn't it? Religion for today could still be a progression of the religions of the past by taking the good and useful... and believable out of the other religions and apply them to today's world.

Why has this thread has gone on so long. One of the reasons is because the Baha'i Faith doesn't deal with Hinduism in a satisfactory manner. What is the good of Hinduism? What is useful? Basic things like vegetarianism, yoga, meditation, spiritual chants did have a great impact on the American culture. Baha'is didn't bring these things. Hindus did. What about the deeper teachings of Hinduism? I know Baha'is will say "no", but they will be virtually lost in a Baha'i world, because Baha'i teachings will take precedence.

Even though Baha'is say they believe that all religions are one. The reality is that you don't believe in what the religions are today. You don't believe in their doctrines, dogmas, rituals and beliefs. None of today's religions has the truth or teaches the truth. They are all wrong, and only the Baha'is have the real truth. But, for some reason, Baha'is try to sugarcoat it. Why?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Point 1 already contradicts beliefs of other religions. Why didn't the different manifestations get their "facts" straight before they told people what the afterlife was like? Would it have been that difficult to say "No, there is no reincarnation." And, "No, there is no bodily resurrection where the believers in Jesus go to Heaven and the non-believers go to hell." Why not until Baha'u'llah are these things made clear?

I think I already replied to this type of question, in another thread related. But I will reply again.

From a Bahai point of view, Recognition of a New Manifestation is a Test ordained by God in every dispensation. This is why, the Prophecies Regarding a New Revelation after for example Islam or Christianity has not been explicitly mentioned in Previous Holy Books. For instance, instead of writing in Quran that, another Messenger comes after Muhammad, He has said, a Day comes that 'the Dead is raised to Life'. Likewise, in Bible instead of saying another Messenger comes with a new Book, He has said 'Jesus returns'. In the same way, in older Religions such as Hinduism, instead of saying another Messenger comes with another Revelation, He has said, 'Krishna comes again at the End, and everyone will be born again'.

Now think about it. If God had said, 'Resurrection is not literal', 'reborn does not mean reincarnation', 'Jesus does not return literally, but someone else comes', then how would God tests and separates the Clean and unclean Hearts?

I think, you have a problem accepting, why should God test us? Or why He did not explicitly say, another Revelation comes, or why He kept it a secret with symbolic language. Right? What part of it does not make sense to you?

However notice that, in all the Books such as Quran, or Bible, God had already said that some of its verses are symbolic, and parables.

Do you see how people are tested? Look, there are worldly people who wish to see miracles, thus when they read, in Holy Books that God raises dead to life, they wishfully see it as a miracle. There are people who are not wishful to see Miracles, but they know, God means, reviving the Spiritually dead by a new revelation. Do you see how by these symbolic verses God separates that same people who came to Jesus and asked for Miracles!? They asked Him, show us a miracle. He said, only a wicked generation asks for a miracle. No miracle is given except the sign of the One who was eaten by fish, and came out on the third day. Now, think how that sign was shown. Was it other than rising Christ on the third Day? Then see how spiritual reality is the same, though they are expressed by different symbolic stories. It seems, the Author of the Book expects us to recognize its Truth, by seeing Signs in the symbolic verses. So, if that is the case, here is what we see; the Bab was Killed, on the third year, Bahaullah's Mission began, and after that He remains for Forty years. Sounds quite a parallel to story of Jesus, doesn't it?
Also think, what is the difference between the action of those who came to Jesus and asked for a Miracle, and if we also see the verses regarding rise of Jesus, or Resurrection as literal Miracles? So, how would God tests, those people who live after Jesus and wish for Miracles? Answer is: by the symbolic verses.

 

[CG Didymus]

It is not all negative. Consider for instance, 100 years ago, no woman had the right to vote, even in USA or Europe. A little bit, before, the Salves were Lawful everywhere. There are many human right organizations. The technology is useful...this internet allows all people to communicate, and share knowledge...
The Spiritual Teachings are given. God has done His part...let's see when we people of the world will be able to take advantage of the Teachings of Bahaullah and make a better World. We cannot expect God, do all the Works for us, and somehow miraculously change the earth to Heaven. We need to do it, by following His guidance. God has given all the tools humanity need. Now, humanity must rise and work.

I didn't say it is all negative. I asked, what about the negative side? But also, what about the influence of Greek and Roman culture? I didn't study it, but how about you or one of the other Baha'is?

I'd question whether the Greeks and Romans had more and a better civilizing influence on the West than Christianity. But, since the United States was formed before the Baha'i Era, you've got to give something other then the Baha'i Faith credit. And, with things like the Bill of Rights, wasn't there already the seeds for equality for all people established?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

This is where people of other faiths differ. Many people are trying to bring world peace. There are peace movements all over the place, hundreds of them. Good worldwide groups like Doctors without Borders,. Amnesty International, UNICEF, various branches of the UN, and many many more. None of them believe Baha'u'llah has anything to do with it. Do any of these groups insist that their way, and their way alone is the only way to world peace? Not that I know of.

But you said 'the betterment of the World DEPENDS (caps mine) on His teachings. In other words, if it wasn't for Baha'u'llah, absolutely none of this other stuff would be happening.

Not only is this a very exclusive idea, it turns its back and insults every other good minded organisation out there, telling them something that simply isn't true, in their hearts and souls. It totally undermines any ideas of unity, harmony with other faiths, and all that. Worse, it doesn't give credit where credit is due. In fact, it STEALS the credit, or attempts to.

Gosh. Thats all my posts in a nut shell!

 

[Vinayaka]

Gosh. Thats all my posts in a nut shell!

I think I will be out for good. Hitting one's head on a brick wall only hurts one's own head after awhile. Bottom line, is it's a very small faith with an aging demographic, and will most likely disappear in another 100 years like so many before it. Unless, of course it they really insult my dear Hinduism. Others can take up the battle for awhile.