How are these Great Beings explained?

[loverofhumanity]

Since when is insulting other faiths food?

What you said, to repeat, is that if a person doesn't accept the prophet's words, then he turns his back on God. All I'm asking for is a half-hearted attempt to imply that you didn't really mean that, and that other people of non-prophet based religions can believe in God, listen to God, act in accordance with dharma, without the need of prophets. That's tolerance, even love for the rest of humanity.

But perhaps you're only being the most truthful Baha'i' here, and your fellow adherents are just being nice to manipulate.

Hi Vinayaka,

If you scan the Baha’i Writings you’ll find nowhere is there any form of guarantee that a Baha’i is ‘saved’ above those who don’t accept Baha’i. Baha’u’llah says not to judge others because ‘none knows what his own end shall be’.

He should forgive the sinful, and never despise his low estate, for none knoweth what his own end shall be. How often hath a sinner attained, at the hour of death, to the essence of faith, and, quaffing the immortal draught, hath taken his flight unto the Concourse on high! And how often hath a devout believer, at the hour of his soul’s ascension, been so changed as to fall into the nethermost fire! (Baha’u’llah)

For the doings of men are all dependent upon Thy good pleasure, and are conditioned by Thy behest. Shouldst Thou regard him who hath broken the fast as one who hath observed it, such a man would be reckoned among them who from eternity had been keeping the fast. And shouldst Thou decree that he who hath observed the fast hath broken it, that person would be numbered with such as have caused the Robe of Thy Revelation to be stained with dust, and been far removed from the crystal waters of this living Fountain. (Baha’u’llah)

So you may reach ‘heaven’ and myself ‘hell’ so to speak. That is not conditional upon myself calling myself a Baha’i and you not but the ultimate call is with God according to Baha’u’llah. He did call to account others in His capacity as a Manifestation but that authority does not rest with the individual Baha’i with God’s Representatives and God Himself.
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[Vinayaka]

Hi Vinayaka,

If you scan the Baha’i Writings you’ll find nowhere is there any form of guarantee that a Baha’i is ‘saved’ above those who don’t accept Baha’i. Baha’u’llah says not to judge others because ‘none knows what his own end shall be’.

LH, I knew that. It's not that hard to figure out. Now if you could take it up with Tony. He's the one telling me I'm walking away from God, not you. Perhaps it is he that needs to scan the writings.

 

[loverofhumanity]

When I read through that stuff, it's quite apparent that he and the people who come after are upset with the ways of the Abrahamics up to that point in history. He says things like 'Europe and the rest of the world' but doesn't really understand what was going on in the rest of the world. So it's a very limited vision, and a lot of it is well, frankly, quite 'out there'. I certainly don't have the time to go through it all, but as I read, several ideas jump out at me. For example, in the third one he talks about ending the diversity of religion on this planet. As you can understand, for people like me who love diversity, enjoy it immensely, that's just sad. Sounds like in communism states ... no color.

But to be clear, I think it is an improvement on Islam and on Christianity, but much of the 'innovation' stuff has already been done in various dharmic faiths. So much of it is new to where he was, but not new to the entire world. So the entire message isn't nearly as unique as you would like us to believe.

I th8nk the language used is often misunderstood. By diversity of religion being ceased refers to an end of conflict between religions. Look at the passage below... how is the differences of race going to be annulled? Are all people to be painted black, white, red or yellow? No, it’s referr8ng to c9mflict and disagreements not actual diversity. We believe in unity in diversity.

That all nations should become one in faith and all men as brothers; that the bonds of affection and unity between the sons of men should be strengthened; that diversity of religion should cease, and differences of race be annulled...(Baha’u’llah)

 

[loverofhumanity]

LH, I knew that. It's not that hard to figure out. Now if you could take it up with Tony. He's the one telling me I'm walking away from God, not you. Perhaps it is he that needs to scan the writings.

You’re very knowledgeable! If you read the Tablet of Ahmad it’s Baha’u’llah that says it so as Baha’is we could quote what He has said but there’s other Writings which also tell us we cannot judge so we have to find a balance.

Be thou assured in thyself that verily, he who turns away from this Beauty hath also turned away from the Messengers of the past and showeth pride towards God from all eternity to all eternity. (Baha’u’llah - Tablet of Ahmad)

True Baha’u’llah said this, but I myself, according to Baha’u’llah could at my last breath turn against God so we have no guarantees. No one Baha’i or otherwise has any guarantees.

It makes no difference whether you have ever heard of Bahá’u’lláh or not, the man who lives the life according to the teachings of Bahá’u’lláh is already a Bahá’í. On the other hand a man may call himself a Bahá’í for fifty years and if he does not live the life he is not a Bahá’í. An ugly man may call himself handsome, but he deceives no one, and a black man may call himself white yet he deceives no one: not even himself!”(Abdul-Baha)

I’ve been a Baha’i for 40 years but both you and Carlita may be much better Baha’is than I will ever hope to be. The name is just a label.

 

[Vinayaka]

I th8nk the language used is often misunderstood. By diversity of religion being ceased refers to an end of conflict between religions. Look at the passage below... how is the differences of race going to be annulled? Are all people to be painted black, white, red or yellow? No, it’s referr8ng to c9mflict and disagreements not actual diversity. We believe in unity in diversity.

That all nations should become one in faith and all men as brothers; that the bonds of affection and unity between the sons of men should be strengthened; that diversity of religion should cease, and differences of race be annulled...(Baha’u’llah)

Not what it says. It says, 'that diversity of religion should cease'. That seems straightforward and clear. I think it is you who are misinterpreting your own prophet's words.

 

[Vinayaka]

LH, please read post number 11431 and let me know what you think.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Not what it says. It says, 'that diversity of religion should cease'. That seems straightforward and clear. I think it is you who are misinterpreting your own prophet's words.

Then how does ,annull’ differences of race? I think if you look at the gist of Baha’u’llah’s Writ8ngs you will find they Centre around removing disunity between religions and races not temov8ng the races and religions themselves. His Message is all about removing antagonism and hostility.

 

[Vinayaka]

You’re very knowledgeable! If you read the Tablet of Ahmad it’s Baha’u’llah that says it so as Baha’is we could quote what He has said but there’s other Writings which also tell us we cannot judge so we have to find a balance.

Be thou assured in thyself that verily, he who turns away from this Beauty hath also turned away from the Messengers of the past and showeth pride towards God from all eternity to all eternity. (Baha’u’llah - Tablet of Ahmad)

True Baha’u’llah said this, but I myself, according to Baha’u’llah could at my last breath turn against God so we have no guarantees. No one Baha’i or otherwise has any guarantees.

It makes no difference whether you have ever heard of Bahá’u’lláh or not, the man who lives the life according to the teachings of Bahá’u’lláh is already a Bahá’í. On the other hand a man may call himself a Bahá’í for fifty years and if he does not live the life he is not a Bahá’í. An ugly man may call himself handsome, but he deceives no one, and a black man may call himself white yet he deceives no one: not even himself!”(Abdul-Baha)

I’ve been a Baha’i for 40 years but both you and Carlita may be much better Baha’is than I will ever hope to be. The name is just a label.

I'm no Baha'i, because I don't believe in prophets, accept homosexuality as it is, would encourage women to be in your House of Justice, am vegetarian, use stone idols as conduits of God, love diversity, love all men, accept other religions as is, and more. I question authority. I would make a terrible terrible Bahai'. I'd be kicked out as a covenant breaker in about an hour.

 

[Vinayaka]

Then how does ,annull’ differences of race? I think if you look at the gist of Baha’u’llah’s Writ8ngs you will find they Centre around removing disunity between religions and races not temov8ng the races and religions themselves. His Message is all about removing antagonism and hostility.

Granted, it has that in it. But the way to it is removing diversity. Isn't it true also that Baha'ullah recommended mixing of races so we all become the same race, indistinguishable, much like the mongrel dogs of India. (The wild dogs of India roam the streeets in packs, and are all essentially the same, because of a few centuries of inbreeding. there are no purebreds left. No collies, no St. Bermards, no greyhounds, etc. ) Think of what we would lose if this happens.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I'm no Baha'i, because I don't believe in prophets, accept homosexuality as it is, would encourage women to be in your House of Justice, am vegetarian, use stone idols as conduits of God, love diversity, love all men, accept other religions as is, and more. I question authority. I would make a terrible terrible Bahai'. I'd be kicked out as a covenant breaker in about an hour.

He means a spiritually loving and pure person as far as I’m concerned not political correctedness which you are meaning.

And the outward forms are not what we are judged upon but our inner being and deeds.

You still could be a much better Baha’i than one who claims to be one because being virtuous is a main requirement and pure selfless deeds. I may read a 100 books about courtesy and technically know by heart all there is to know about it but I may be the rudest person on earth. You understand? Book learning is only the first step. Without inner transformation and deeds it means nothing.

That is where anyone Baha’i or not can be way better than a Baha’i. We are nothing special and have so much to learn.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The food is already fixed, you and I can not change that, it is on the table. If for a future meal we wish to change what is offered then we can put human input in to it and graft to make another variety.

Re-read that part of my post. I said it does nothing for us to put prefixed food on the table. We can share but that's about it. The best we can do is find new ingredients together. Why do you overlook my point?

Until that time we have a choice of what the earth provides. There is also great spiritual wisdom in this.

Yes, as a blanket and general statement that is true.

Think deeper.

I think this means "think more like you" unless you expand what you're trying to say, I don't like phrases like this. They are incomplete and leaves me assuming which I hate doing.

Thus lets say 9 Faiths have a teaching on Being Born again, lets consider the passages of each that give that understanding and lets find what they really say. After discussion many doors to new understandings are opened.

Because they are all in the same religion. Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity, Judaism, Zoroaster, and Islam are totally different religions. Only Bahai seem to miss this point. Most religions know they are not integrated at the foundation.

If we stick to doctrine we close all other doors

That's your opinion. I just came from chanting with a beautifully knowledge monk at our local monastery. Unfortunately, the abbot is in Vietnam so no Dhamma talk. She told me a lot of things. We did a lot of things. All are considered doctrine. They opened doors to my little brain that no "abstract" or symbolic religion can do.

We Must learn to walk before we can run. A person will always have trouble if they try to run before they can walk. Life teaches us this.

Again, I'm staying my belief not a statement of fact. Greater peace comes first then lesser peace. We have to learn about ourselves before we can help others. Many doctrine religions are religions because they help themselves as a community.

Always inside first. Outside comes later. If Buddhism and Hinduism is one of your revealed faiths, this is something you have to consider as truth. If you believe external first then internal that's a complete conflict with Dharmic faiths.

Fortunately (or not), I have been in an external-faith world, environment, and been in an external based religion that I loved very much. I looked deeper because I love doctrine and it helped me grow spiritually.

But I realize I can't depend on others (god or whoever) to help me. I help me. I do that serving others.

We have totally different views. We can talk about both of our views or leave it alone.

When we are yet to put the names of God in our Lives, a good foundation can still be found if we can be Trustworthy and Truthful in all our dealings with each other.

There is a balance we must find. The balance is God. So yes, it will be difficult.

BIG problem there. You can't solve greater peace if you already defined it for humanity.

Yes it is about all of us, humanity as a whole. If you do not think Unity in purpose and Mind are not important, keep watching this world as calamities and natural disasters multiply by the day.

If you read my posts and read them in context, this would not make any sense at all.

Mind is the core of the Buddhist faith.

Unity means integration so no, I disagree with that. I agree everyone has their individuality and there is no common foundation god or otherwise.

Watching calamities and witnessing and experiencing them in person first hand does not change my views. If anything, it tells me that we are thinking so much about what others think of us (god included) rather than addressing our own issues.

Unless you're isolated in a bubble somewhere, I'm sure calamities happen where you are too. We're right next door to the Twin Tours. I need no T.V. for what I can see outside my window. Literally.

You going to have to go deeper than external issues.

The cancer of materialism and immorality that has made sick the mind of man and now requires radical and harsh treatment.

That treatment comes from humanity-all people in agreement with one cure-not one person's cure for all humanity.

The treatment has begun. Now the patient's have to accept the elixer and not fight against it.

On that note, you're speaking of Bahaullah without saying his name.

But, no. Kamma does its thing. We will die. You can't change kamma by finding an elixir to solve life's problems. You can help but don't try to find treatment unless you have everyone's agreement on it and their contribution. Again-their contribution included.

No they can not, it would have happened.

If you read the whole paragraph in context than quoting one unfinished line, then you'll understand why I said that.

"However, if you are (above) unwilling or can't go beyond what you offer, then there is no reason to address the issues. Bahai can do it by themselves but working together doesn't mean putting two separate dishes on the table."​

If you can't go beyond what you offer, than basically, you can do the work by yourselves without expecting anyone to contribute unless they choose to. That mindset doesn't go anywhere.

We are Humanity we are connected, we must do it together.

Yes. I know. Without god. That is my point. Unless you want find "new ingredients" we can both agree on, what are you disputing?

Together we must decide what is the best way.

Yes. Yes. Again, we need to make it with new ingredients not prefixed food.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Granted, it has that in it. But the way to it is removing diversity. Isn't it true also that Baha'ullah recommended mixing of races so we all become the same race, indistinguishable, much like the mongrel dogs of India. (The wild dogs of India roam the streeets in packs, and are all essentially the same, because of a few centuries of inbreeding. there are no purebreds left. No collies, no St. Bermards, no greyhounds, etc. ) Think of what we would lose if this happens.

Not at all. His aim is we just accept each other for who we are and get along.

 

[Vinayaka]

Then how does ,annull’ differences of race? I think if you look at the gist of Baha’u’llah’s Writ8ngs you will find they Centre around removing disunity between religions and races not temov8ng the races and religions themselves. His Message is all about removing antagonism and hostility.

What does a Baha'i' temple do? It is open to all, that is true. But for me, a Hindu, it is empty (as are Christian or Islamic houses of worship). The Hindu temple is quite literally the House of God. He dwells there, much like a king, and devotees seek an audience with God (called darshan in Sanskrit) when they go there. It's a place where great communication goes on, directly between God and man. Ancient rishis, through inner clairvoyance, saw and heard how these temples were to be designed (in scriptures called the Agamas) so that all this could happen. A Baha'i' temple doesn't do that. For Hindus, all that I just described is lost. Baha'u'llah spoke nothing about this. He either didn't know about it, or was too programmed by his birth religion to hate the Hindu ways.

 

[Vinayaka]

Not at all. His aim is we just accept each other for who we are and get along.

Then why are the Baha'i' proseltysing? That's not at all accepting others for who they are. That's saying there's something wrong, and we Baha'i's really need to change it.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The food is already fixed, you and I can not change that, it is on the table. If for a future meal we wish to change what is offered then we can put human input in to it and graft to make another variety.

Re-read that part of my post. I said it does nothing for us to put prefixed food on the table. We can share but that's about it. The best we can do is find new ingredients together. Why do you overlook my point?

Until that time we have a choice of what the earth provides. There is also great spiritual wisdom in this.

Yes, as a blanket and general statement that is true.

Think deeper.

I think this means "think more like you" unless you expand what you're trying to say, I don't like phrases like this. They are incomplete and leaves me assuming which I hate doing.

Thus lets say 9 Faiths have a teaching on Being Born again, lets consider the passages of each that give that understanding and lets find what they really say. After discussion many doors to new understandings are opened.

Because they are all in the same religion. Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity, Judaism, Zoroaster, and Islam are totally different religions. Only Bahai seem to miss this point. Most religions know they are not integrated at the foundation.

If we stick to doctrine we close all other doors

That's your opinion. I just came from chanting with a beautifully knowledge monk at our local monastery. Unfortunately, the abbot is in Vietnam so no Dhamma talk. She told me a lot of things. We did a lot of things. All are considered doctrine. They opened doors to my little brain that no "abstract" or symbolic religion can do.

We Must learn to walk before we can run. A person will always have trouble if they try to run before they can walk. Life teaches us this.

Again, I'm staying my belief not a statement of fact. Greater peace comes first then lesser peace. We have to learn about ourselves before we can help others. Many doctrine religions are religions because they help themselves as a community.

Always inside first. Outside comes later. If Buddhism and Hinduism is one of your revealed faiths, this is something you have to consider as truth. If you believe external first then internal that's a complete conflict with Dharmic faiths.

Fortunately (or not), I have been in an external-faith world, environment, and been in an external based religion that I loved very much. I looked deeper because I love doctrine and it helped me grow spiritually.

But I realize I can't depend on others (god or whoever) to help me. I help me. I do that serving others.

We have totally different views. We can talk about both of our views or leave it alone.

When we are yet to put the names of God in our Lives, a good foundation can still be found if we can be Trustworthy and Truthful in all our dealings with each other.

There is a balance we must find. The balance is God. So yes, it will be difficult.

BIG problem there. You can't solve greater peace if you already defined it for humanity.

Yes it is about all of us, humanity as a whole. If you do not think Unity in purpose and Mind are not important, keep watching this world as calamities and natural disasters multiply by the day.

If you read my posts and read them in context, this would not make any sense at all.

Mind is the core of the Buddhist faith.

Unity means integration so no, I disagree with that. I agree everyone has their individuality and there is no common foundation god or otherwise.

Watching calamities and witnessing and experiencing them in person first hand does not change my views. If anything, it tells me that we are thinking so much about what others think of us (god included) rather than addressing our own issues.

Unless you're isolated in a bubble somewhere, I'm sure calamities happen where you are too. We're right next door to the Twin Tours. I need no T.V. for what I can see outside my window. Literally.

You going to have to go deeper than external issues.

The cancer of materialism and immorality that has made sick the mind of man and now requires radical and harsh treatment.

That treatment comes from humanity-all people in agreement with one cure-not one person's cure for all humanity.

The treatment has begun. Now the patient's have to accept the elixer and not fight against it.

On that note, you're speaking of Bahaullah without saying his name.

But, no. Kamma does its thing. We will die. You can't change kamma by finding an elixir to solve life's problems. You can help but don't try to find treatment unless you have everyone's agreement on it and their contribution. Again-their contribution included.

No they can not, it would have happened.

If you read the whole paragraph in context than quoting one unfinished line, then you'll understand why I said that.

"However, if you are (above) unwilling or can't go beyond what you offer, then there is no reason to address the issues. Bahai can do it by themselves but working together doesn't mean putting two separate dishes on the table."​

If you can't go beyond what you offer, than basically, you can do the work by yourselves without expecting anyone to contribute unless they choose to. That mindset doesn't go anywhere.

We are Humanity we are connected, we must do it together.

Yes. I know. Without god. That is my point. Unless you want find "new ingredients" we can both agree on, what are you disputing?

Together we must decide what is the best way.

Yes. Yes. Again, we need to make it with new ingredients not prefixed food.

 

[Vinayaka]

Yes. I know. Without god. That is my point. Unless you want find "new ingredients" we can both agree on, what are you disputing?

Yes. Yes. Again, we need to make it with new ingredients not prefixed food.

Everyone can live perfectly healthy just eating their own food. I can eat rice and curry the rest of my life. Just sayin...

 

[Vinayaka]

He means a spiritually loving and pure person as far as I’m concerned not political correctedness which you are meaning.

And the outward forms are not what we are judged upon but our inner being and deeds.

You still could be a much better Baha’i than one who claims to be one because being virtuous is a main requirement and pure selfless deeds. I may read a 100 books about courtesy and technically know by heart all there is to know about it but I may be the rudest person on earth. You understand? Book learning is only the first step. Without inner transformation and deeds it means nothing.

That is where anyone Baha’i or not can be way better than a Baha’i. We are nothing special and have so much to learn.

Breaking the rules gets you kicked out. I've done my reading. If what you're saying is accurate, you should be kicked out too. Come, we can be non-Bahai together, lol.

I could never be Baha'i' because Baha'i' have to accept the infallibility of Baha'u'llah, and sign some document. Out of curiousity, can you explain this 'signing up' in a few words or link me to something?

Editted .... I found it "I wish to become a member of the Baha’i community. I accept Baha’u’llah as the Bearer of God’s Message for this Day and will endeavour to follow His teachings and the Baha’i way of life. I also accept the authority of the institutions which administer the affairs of the Baha’i community. (Australian Baha’i declaration card)"

You see, the first thing it says is you accept Baha'u'llah. I clearly don't, so I'm out.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Everyone can live perfectly healthy just eating their own food. I can eat rice and curry the rest of my life. Just sayin...

True. True. The nun today was telling me that the food I eat was unhealthy. We had white rice and something that looked like meat but it wasn't. Something that taste like pound cake but it was made up of a type of bean.

I came home, popped in a chicken fillet, and ate a nice American lazy made sandwich.

But that would be my solution to humanity if we needed to solve the problem with kamma (pretending there is one). Have everyone find ingredients they agree with and make a new dish everyone likes.

I don't see that happening any time soon.

 

[siti]

Here are a few concepts you may struggle to find in Islam or Christianity:

OK - I read them all - here's an encapsulation of the first few:

Baha'u'llah is the latest prophet (yes I know, more than a prophet but a prophet nonetheless)...prophesying an imminent era of peace...and religious unity...with the "true religion" as the basis of a unified human civilization...under a universal theocracy...in which there are neither poor nor excessively wealthy people...all speaking a universal language...etc. Not much new in that is there? All of these ideas are already clearly present in the Abrahamic traditions in one form or another.

Then there's a series of things about social and international justice - both of which were pressing political issues in the 19th century (just as they have been in all other centuries of human civilization)...the Greeks had inter-state arbitration perhaps as early as the 7th century BCE (for example)...

I suppose we could take them one by one and refute the novelty claims sequentially, but I don't really see the point. Do you?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Hinduism is constantly changing, reflecting the times. When new science comes out, we use it. The key as always, of course is wisdom.

As far as the caste system goes, it is always changing. Originally it was merely a reflection of how, in olden days, people did what their parents did. So a tailor's son became a tailor.

It's class we of humanity have to be worried about, not caste. Distribution of wealth is a major problem. Religions that think in terms of 'us versus them' are horribly class conscious. It's the upper class (us) versus the lower class (them). The ruling class in a utopian Baha'i' society will be all Baha'i'. No room at the top for us poor blokes on the outside. Even the Baha'i' women are on the outside.

Good you cleared that up and noted change is required with the times .

There is no top positions in the Baha'i Faith.

Just before reading this I was on another Forum, this being the topic

Global Religions: The Hindu Concept of the Soul and the Afterlife

It also mentions

General Definitions

1. Svarga = Heaven
2. Narakas = Hell(s)
3. Atman = Soul
4. Preta = Ghost
5. Mrutyulok = Human world
6. Moksha = End to Reincarnation
7. Svayambhu = Brahma, God, or Ultimate Reality
8. Samsara = Reincarnation

Disqus - Global Religions: The Hindu Concept of the Soul and the Afterlife

Seems much change happens within Hinduisim, thus what is of God and What is of Man?

This quotes heaven and hell's

Regards Tony