How are these Great Beings explained?

[siti]

so you would still owe a response to my post that you are saying i explained them away. Otherwise, you simply left that conversation, and did not prove your point.

The quotes I gave had already proved the point - but you refuse to accept the evidence of any non-Baha'i (such as Baha'u'llah's own sister) or of the obvious insertion of copious numbers of direct quotations from literature that are a hallmark of some of Baha'u'llah's writings and that would lead any rational reader to conclude that he was a learned scholar, so you'll have to make do with the few quotes directly from the pens of Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l Baha where they themselves attest to his learning and his need to make reference to books for information.

Here, then, are the Baha'i source ones again (so you can't object on the basis of perceived bias)...

There is no evidence that Bahaullah had to find another book to get quotes from it.

Baha'u'llah gives exactly that evidence himself in the Book of Certitude (page 184)

"We felt it necessary to refer to his books, in order that We might answer Our questioners with knowledge and understanding."

And you are doing exactly the same thing Abdul Baha did when claimed this:

"As all the people of Persia know, He had never studied in any school, nor had He associated with the ulamá or the men of learning...His companions and associates were Persians of the highest rank, but not learned men." Some Answered Questions, Abdu'l Baha

when he knew very well, as he admitted in conversation with Baha'i "Hand of the Cause" John Esslemont that:

"When He [Baha'u'llah] was only thirteen or fourteen years old He became renowned for His learning. He would converse on any subject and solve any problem presented to Him. In large gatherings He would discuss matters with the Ulama (leading mullas) and would explain intricate religious questions." Bahá'u'lláh and the New Era: Chapter 3

So both you and Abdu'l Baha need to make up your minds did Baha'u'llah find it necessary to refer to books in order to answer with knowledge and understanding - as he himself said (in the Book of Certitude no less) or did he not need to do so as you are claiming...did he spend time discussing religious ideas with the Ulama as Abdu'l Baha says in one place, or had he not associated with them as he claims in another place.

Or are you both prevaricating in order to shore up an unfounded faith in supposed divine inspiration?

I am genuinely sorry to have to be so blunt - but you really do seem to have been completely bamboozled on this question. It is perfectly obvious that Baha'u'llah was well versed not only in the Qur'an, but also in Persian and Arabic literature, and was intimately familiar with the religio-socio-political ideas circulating among the Shi'i Islamic leaders in 19th century Persia and the Sufi scholars that he also spent two years in reclusion with in Kurdistan. As far as I am concerned, that is case closed on this. You believe what you want to believe, but it is obvious to me that Baha'u'llah was both an avid and able scholar.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

All Paths do lead to the same God. The Face of God is seen in all the Great Beings.

It is Baha'u'llah that is the Face of God for this age. Thus not to turn towards this face in this day is turning away from God since time began.

To turn away from any Face of God, once we have been made aware this is so, is to turn away from God

Regards Tony

LH, please read post number 11431 and let me know what you think.

There you go in one message.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

Good you cleared that up and noted change is required with the times .

There is no top positions in the Baha'i Faith.

Just before reading this I was on another Forum, this being the topic

Global Religions: The Hindu Concept of the Soul and the Afterlife

It also mentions

General Definitions

1. Svarga = Heaven
2. Narakas = Hell(s)
3. Atman = Soul
4. Preta = Ghost
5. Mrutyulok = Human world
6. Moksha = End to Reincarnation
7. Svayambhu = Brahma, God, or Ultimate Reality
8. Samsara = Reincarnation

Disqus - Global Religions: The Hindu Concept of the Soul and the Afterlife

Seems much change happens within Hinduisim, thus what is of God and What is of Man?

This quotes heaven and hell's

Regards Tony

Then what exactly is the House of Justice? You can say it's not a top position all you want to, but any open minded neutral observer would surely disagree.

Just as a note about researching Hinduism. It's very vast. Just as Judaism, Bahai', Islam, and Christianity differ substantially, so do the sects within Hinduism. So a lot of the stuff you may encounter won't apply to all of us. For me, only numbers 2,5, 6, 7, and 8 in that list apply.

Still, it's a welcome change to see you actually taking an interest in what others believe rather than regurgitating Bahai Bahai and more Bahai. It's a start.

 

[Vinayaka]

Tony, regarding evolving with the times, here's a relevant article for you.

Madras High Court makes in-depth study of Tirukkural compulsory in schools : News

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Then what exactly is the House of Justice? You can say it's not a top position all you want to, but any open minded neutral observer would surely disagree.

This is a new day a new mindset. All priesthood and divines and status have been removed from Faith in God.

In this day all are equal in the eyes of God, no one above another, no one more special than another.

What makes a person, is Faith in deeds. No matter where they serve.

The Universal House of Justice is currently 9 elected people, who by law are male and currently serve 5 years in that capacity.

Baha'u'llah has exempted women from election to the Universal House of Justice, this enables them to serve fully without the worry of having to direct that service to the specific task of a Member of the Universal House of Justice, for a 5 year period.

It is a internal joke amongst Baha'is at election time, hoping they do not get elected to serve on the local Spiritual Assembly. They know if they do, there busy lives will be very much busier. This expands as we go to the National Level and then on the Universal Level. (Of course they accept if the community chooses them)

This is quite refreshing and the opposite of modern politics where one canvases for votes. Those elected, the community has seen to be best for the job.

Thus Women most kindly, are free of the International Level, but can be appointed to the arm of the learned. This arm is committed to yearly service. Many do serve in this capacity and at National and local levels, all which currently are one year terms.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Tony, regarding evolving with the times, here's a relevant article for you.

Madras High Court makes in-depth study of Tirukkural compulsory in schools : News

Thank you a good read. (What I have read )

I like the introduction.

Contents

Edit. I glanced over a lot of the sections, it has a lot of good advice.

Regards Tony

 

[loverofhumanity]

Everyone can live perfectly healthy just eating their own food. I can eat rice and curry the rest of my life. Just sayin...

Byriayani, lassi, prassadam. Yum!

 

[Vinayaka]

Byriayani, lassi, prassadam. Yum!

I don't particularly like biryani. Depends on the spices of the region it comes from. Lassi is just too sweet for me, and prasadam can be anything that has been offered to the Gods first. Just a little education for you. A lot of people only get to experience one, maybe two varieties of Hindu culture. Then they think that that is Hinduism. It's natural, yet still, for a deeper understanding, needs to be explained.

 

[Vinayaka]

.

The Universal House of Justice is currently 9 elected people, who by law are male and currently serve 5 years in that capacity.

Doesn't matter how they get there, The fact is that once they do get there, they have a ton more power than an average member, thus making it a hierarchy of influence. Right now, when you speak, how many Baha'i' can hear you? If a House member says something, how many?

 

[loverofhumanity]

The thing about a new Message is with it comes the challenge of change. When people get into a comfort zone change is often not welcome, not that it is not needed.

Politicians have tried, religions have tried, people and scientists have tried but still wars and violence persist. If the medicine we are using doesn’t cure the disease then why continue to use it?

Let’s try something new, something Baha’u’llah brought and if it doesn’t work we can go back to our old ways. Here’s an 3xample of what i mean.

We should be brave enough to try something new otherwise things will never change.

“During the last six thousand years nations have hated one another, it is now time to stop. War must cease. Let us be united and love one another and await the result. We know the effects of war are bad. So let us try, as an experiment, peace, and if the results of peace are bad, then we can choose if it would be better to go back to the old state of war! Let us in any case make the experiment. If we see that unity brings Light we shall continue it. For six thousand years we have been walking on the left-hand path; let us walk on the right-hand path now. We have passed many centuries in darkness, let us advance towards the light. – Abdu’l-Baha in London, pp. 61-62.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I don't particularly like biryani. Depends on the spices of the region it comes from. Lassi is just too sweet for me, and prasadam can be anything that has been offered to the Gods first. Just a little education for you. A lot of people only get to experience one, maybe two varieties of Hindu culture. Then they think that that is Hinduism. It's natural, yet still, for a deeper understanding, needs to be explained.

I don’t know anything about Hindu culture at all as I wasn’t brought up as a Hindu but I like things I have tried.

 

[Vinayaka]

The thing about a new Message is with it comes the challenge of change. When people get into a comfort zone change is often not welcome, not that it is not needed.

To be really new, we have to give up the old ways of Baha'i' as well. Clearly that hasn't worked. I find Baha'i's very much in that comfort zone you speak out against.

 

[Sen McGlinn]

It is perfectly obvious that Baha'u'llah was well versed not only in the Qur'an, but also in Persian and Arabic literature, and was intimately familiar with the religio-socio-political ideas circulating among the Shi'i Islamic leaders in 19th century Persia and the Sufi scholars that he also spent two years in reclusion with in Kurdistan. As far as I am concerned, that is case closed on this. You believe what you want to believe, but it is obvious to me that Baha'u'llah was both an avid and able scholar.

Absolutely. So was Abdu'l-Baha. Their writings are full of citations from and references to the scriptures and learned books and poetry of past generations. Abdu'l-Baha for example cites an American historian of civilizations, Draper, using a French translation. He knew Voltaire's works, and Luther's, he read newspapers and books in Arabic, Persian and Turkish. He was a cosmopolitan citizen of the Ottoman empire at a time of intellectual turmoil, and he corresponded with the leaders of thought of the day.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

when he knew very well, as he admitted in conversation with Baha'i "Hand of the Cause" John Esslemont that:

"When He [Baha'u'llah] was only thirteen or fourteen years old He became renowned for His learning. He would converse on any subject and solve any problem presented to Him. In large gatherings He would discuss matters with the Ulama (leading mullas) and would explain intricate religious questions." Bahá'u'lláh and the New Era: Chapter 3

I think Other things were already addressed in my previous post with the link. So, i only add a few lines, related to the quote you provided from the Bahai hand of the Cause. That quote actually is from Abdulbaha originally and it is this one:

On one occasion ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, the eldest son of Bahá’u’lláh, related to the writer the following particulars about His Father’s early days:—
From childhood He was extremely kind and generous. He was a great lover of outdoor life, most of His time being spent in the garden or the fields. He had an extraordinary power of attraction, which was felt by all. People always crowded around Him. Ministers and people of the Court would surround Him, and the children also were devoted to Him. When He was only thirteen of fourteen years old He became renowned for His learning. He would converse on any subject and solve any problem presented to Him. In large gatherings He would discuss matters with the ‘Ulamá (leading mullás) and would explain intricate religious questions. All of them used to listen to Him with the greatest interest.


So, there are two points. First i think Abdulbaha must have said these in Persian language, not English. So, i looked up statements of Abdulbaha in Persian Language, and He says Bahaullah was known for His Wisdom and innate Knowledge. He does not say 'learning'. The word learning seems to be an inaccurate translation in a sense that gives the impression, that knowledge was obtained through studying or being taught by other people. Whereas in original Persian, Abdulbaha says 'innate knowledge'.

فرزندشان حضرت عبدالبهاء، دربارۀ کودکی ایشان چنین می فرمایند: «...حضرت بهاءالله از طبقۀ نجبا و اصیل فارس بودند. از همان اوان طفولیت از سایر اطفال متمایز بودند.... در حکمت و هوش و علم جدید ذاتی، فراتر از نفوس هم سن و سال و هم طبقۀ خود بودند.

The childhood of Bahá’u’lláh - The Life of Bahá'u'lláh

The other point is, all accounts we have with regards to Bahaullah facing Ulama or Mullas, is He explained difficult things to them, not them to Bahaullah.

So both you and Abdu'l Baha need to make up your minds did Baha'u'llah find it necessary to refer to books in order to answer with knowledge and understanding - as he himself said (in the Book of Certitude no less) or did he not need to do so as you are claiming...did he spend time discussing religious ideas with the Ulama as Abdu'l Baha says in one place, or had he not associated with them as he claims in another place.

Or are you both prevaricating in order to shore up an unfounded faith in supposed divine inspiration?

I am genuinely sorry to have to be so blunt - but you really do seem to have been completely bamboozled on this question. It is perfectly obvious that Baha'u'llah was well versed not only in the Qur'an, but also in Persian and Arabic literature, and was intimately familiar with the religio-socio-political ideas circulating among the Shi'i Islamic leaders in 19th century Persia and the Sufi scholars that he also spent two years in reclusion with in Kurdistan. As far as I am concerned, that is case closed on this. You believe what you want to believe, but it is obvious to me that Baha'u'llah was both an avid and able scholar.

Bahaullah going to Kurdistan was a bit later of His life. But again, the accounts we have is that, Bahaullah in Kurdistan or whereever else, was explaining things to others, not them to Bahaullah.
Bahaullah significantly referred to Metaphorical and Symbolic interpretations, which now, or at the time, was very little known about by the Ulama. They were and still are very literallists and did not know symbolic language of Islamic sources much.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Doesn't matter how they get there, The fact is that once they do get there, they have a ton more power than an average member, thus making it a hierarchy of influence. Right now, when you speak, how many Baha'i' can hear you? If a House member says something, how many?

Again this is not the correct vision of this body. As you say with Hinduism that we do not see the way you do, consider also you are not seeing this as we do.

To me this is why Baha'u'llah says in the Future it will be obvious, as the mind of man now is still being held within old concepts.

Each member of the Universal House of justice is one voice, they are individual like you and me, what they say is their opinion and holds no more weight than any other individual opinion.

When each of the 9 meet and discuss an issue and make a decision, then that decision is guided by God.

There are reflections offered by past members of this body, that give great confirmation as to how this works.

There is no individual position of power in the Baha'i Faith. It is not a position of power to serve as a Universal House of Justice Memeber.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Re-read that part of my post. I said it does nothing for us to put prefixed food on the table. We can share but that's about it. The best we can do is find new ingredients together. Why do you overlook my point?

I would offer you still have not understood what has been said, Lets do it this way. This link gives what can be used to make a dish for the table.

Fruit and Vegetable A-Z Index - EDIS - Electronic Data Information Source - UF/IFAS Extension

That is what is offered is on the table to choose from, to make a dish or eat as they are

The world offers what we can currently work with. To change that list to make a new ingredient, a new unknown thing must be found or made through genetic modification, good gardening or grafting.

This is also reflected in spiritual thinking.

Regards Tony

 

[siti]

So, i looked up statements of Abdulbaha in Persian Language

You understand Persian? I'm impressed. I take your point about the possible mistranslation into English - I'm prepared to concede that on the grounds that I don't know Persian language at all - but as I said, on the (IMO) overwhelming evidence of the rest of what I have read (of their own writings), both Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l Baha seem to have been well-versed in scripture and literature. I guess we'll just have to agree to differ.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You understand Persian? I'm impressed. I take your point about the possible mistranslation into English - I'm prepared to concede that on the grounds that I don't know Persian language at all - but as I said, on the (IMO) overwhelming evidence of the rest of what I have read (of their own writings), both Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l Baha seem to have been well-versed in scripture and literature. I guess we'll just have to agree to differ.

You will note that Sen above agreed they were well versed and we would agree they were.

In the case of Abdul'baha, Baha'u'llah has left His Life for us to study and to get all the answers we need to live our lives.

When we do look at His Life from a very young age,a person will note that the time required to do any study, to be so well versed in every subject, was extremely limited. Thus in the end we have to determine where the majority of this knowledge came from.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

Each member of the Universal House of justice is one voice, they are individual like you and me, what they say is their opinion and holds no more weight than any other individual opinion.

When each of the 9 meet and discuss an issue and make a decision, then that decision is guided by God.

Of course your view is always the correct view. I realised that some 200 pages back.
One question ... Can you, Tony, go there, and have your voice heard? If so, then I will change my mind.

According to this Powers and Duties | The Universal House of Justice - An official website of the Bahá’í Faith they have powers. Do you have the same powers?

 

[Vinayaka]

Like Judaism, Christianity, and Islam before it the Baha'i Faith is based on an entirely new revelation. As discussed part of that new revelation is a restatement of past universal truths within the context of a new theology.

What's new? I thought I had answered that question earlier.

Here are a few concepts you may struggle to find in Islam or Christianity:

Bahá'í Reference Library - Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, Page 5

Here is the first paragraph from the first selection on Adrian's long list of links.

"Bahá’u’lláh declared, plainly and repeatedly, that He was the long-expected educator and teacher of all peoples, the channel of a wondrous Grace that would transcend all previous outpourings, in which all previous forms of religion would become merged, as rivers merge in the ocean. He laid a foundation which affords a firm basis for Unity throughout the whole world and the inauguration of that glorious age of peace on earth, goodwill among men, of which prophets have told and poets sung."

Note the very last phrasing. It says "of which prophets have told and poets sung" In other words it says that these concepts were had already been sung about and foreseen. It is admitting that the concepts have been around, and yet at the same time it's all new?

Sorry, that's just contradictory right there.