How are these Great Beings explained?

[loverofhumanity]

If your actions are acceptable to god do you separate their importance as primary or secondary to your belief in god or the same?



Maybe this is what you personally feel rather than a universal bahai belief?

If god says to make people one must give, why would you ask yourself if it does? Would you think god would want you to give alcohol to someone? Maybe that makes him happy according to man's view but if it does not to god, why would you question it?

Unless god does not let you know what he accepts?



According to scripture and some of the bahai quotes on unity and life, Id say his love for god (which I wouldnt question) does not reflect his actions. If The Buddha is a manifestation, his first precept is do not kill. Ten commandments says the same in the, I think, second commandment (intended or not).

I wouldnt say its a delusion just poor correlation and application with, say, biblical scripture.


I understand this. Thats why I ask if your actions are intune with god what makes then secondary to your faith?

Likewise with Catholics. Catholics worship of The Eucharist are intune aith god, what makes their actions secondary (if not false) to their faith?



Yes. Thank you for asking clarification. I would like to step a little more into the question. While you may not know whats acceptable to god others do according to their scriptures. When I ask about why would their actions be secondary and you say that man can do anything but that doesnt count unless its what god wants then to do.

It could be you dont believe that their practice is from god?

If it is, Im kinda repeating to see it from another perspective, why is it secondary to one's spiritual faith?

If physical deeds are accetable to god why are they secondary to spiritual belief? (In this case, not one dependent on the of her; both one and thr same and cannot be separated crom each other for god to accept that deed/faith.)

I kinda repeated the question in different ways. Im questioning how you see a Catholic's deeds such as Eucharisric adoration and why would this false or secondary when it is acceptable to god?

I think I have an answer. The deeds depend upon what us acceotable to God but the deeds also must be performed with belief in God. Does that make sense in the light of this statement of Baha’u’llah.

He says to belive and obey a ‘twin duties’ and neither is acceptable without the other. So belief alone without deeds is unacceptable and deeds alone without belief is unacceptable according to Baha’u’llah.

It’s the very first law in His Most Holy Book.

“The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration.”

Excerpt From
The Kitab-i-Aqdas
Bahá’u’lláh

So I think Baha’u’llah is saying they are equal duties and neither deeds nor belief are acceptable alone.

 

[Vinayaka]

With that line of reasoning it becomes possible to justify and support religious extremism. Religious extremism, as exemplified by some in Hindutva movement, gives Hinduism a bad name as do the extremists of Islam and Christianity.

I don't understand. What I said was standing up for your rights. Do you think women, minorities, or gays standing up for the same rights others get could lead to extremism? I don't see that.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Hindus, at least in my sect, have methods tried and true to resolve guilt. Just feeling guilty isn't enough. The first step is a heartfelt apology. Then some method to change the behaviour. A good example used in a lot of public places is the 'curse jar'. It works by having a charity box, and if you curse, you have to donate a fixed amount of money. It can clean up the language a pool hall or bar in a short time. So much more than guilt and an apology is required. You need a change of behaviour, else the lesson isn't learned. Course you get to repeat the experience in that case. Experience can be a strict teacher some days.

That’s a good method and I agree that the changing of behaviour proves the sincerity of an apology as it’s not much good doing some wrong over and over again and just going to confesssion for forgiveness only to repeat it again.

 

[Vinayaka]

Man made differences that need to be explored further. Now also do a search for agreements, you will find a list that helps dissolve differences.

As predicted, you simply dismissed it. That's why I don't feel its useful to find sites that demonstrate vast differences, and link them. Far too easily dismissed. I seriously doubt you even read it.

But here's another one anyway, for you to not read and dismiss nonchalantly.

Christianity vs Hinduism - Difference and Comparison | Diffen

 

[loverofhumanity]

Maybe maybe not. On an individual level, for sure. But we could also destroy this planet. It's possible, I'm not naive.

I don’t believe we’ll ever destroy our planet entirely because there are just too many good people to let that happen but we could come close.

 

[Vinayaka]

I don’t believe we’ll ever destroy our planet entirely because there are just too many good people to let that happen but we could come close.

I think technology could save us. Most likely there are already large 'bomb shelter' type places hidden underground, available only to the very rich, with enough technology to keep the human race alive for 1000 years, until the nuclear waste dissipates enough to again come back to the surface.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Yes, I agree, and I apologise. I think the last place to look would be at a hateful site. I didn't really mean it as a valid alternative, just pointing out that there are other opinions out there. Lots of them, some more reasonable than others. I\ll try to be more diligent in my google searching in the future. Were there any sites that I linked to that were more balanced? Hopefully, there were.

Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry | Equipping the Saints. Reaching the Lost.

The problem with CARM is not their hate but they have a worldview that excludes the validity of other's faiths, simply because it is not 'Christian' as they understand it. They are so convinced as to the truth of Jesus as they see Him, everything else must be wrong. So there is no point at looking at the Baha'is or Hindus in any depth because it has no substance and is wrong. It is wrong and has no substance because it is not 'Christian'. So in short it is a complete waste of time reading their literature as it is so biased.

The approach I take to Hinduism is simple. I either use Wikipedia, the encyclopaedia Britannica, or something scholarly along with the Hindu website you provided us many months back. I'm entirely comfortable looking at Hinduism from a more fact based perspective. I have no axe to grind with Hinduism, no need to discredit it or disparage it. There are problems with Hinduism of course and they have emerged through the reading I have done or the discussions we have had. Naturally there are conflicts with my Baha'i worldview such as with reincarnation. As mentioned I'm prepared to concede we can not easily prove or disprove from a rational, scientific perspective whether reincarnation is true or not.

When investigating another's religion we each need to find the approach that we are comfortable with. What works for me investigating Hinduism may not work for you investigating the Baha'i Faith. It seems important to access information that is fair and balanced though. Baha'is, like Hindus, are the ones that know their religion the best. So Baha'i sources and recognised 'neutral sources' seems like the best approach. I have never seen a Christian or Islamic site that presents the Baha'i faith fairly. I can't imagine they will be too much help for me investigating Hinduism.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Please feel free to ask me questions at any time.

If there was a disparity between what I believed God was telling me and what Baha'u'llah taught then that would be a crisis of faith. For example, if I was sure that God said to me, become a Catholic and leave the Baha'i Faith, then I would. However, there is no contradiction between how I experience God and Baha'u'llah's teachings so I am happy in my Faith.



It is not one or the other, but both.

I trust scripture based on God's authority and God's authority based on scripture.

I know its both. If god's authority doesnt line up with scripture its no longer both. I agree it could be a crisis in faith though i dont see it both sence bahai cant talk to god without manifestations. If its both, you can have one without the other then its fine. Since god is dependent on scriptures (man..) how can it be both equally? If anything god dep. scripture would be primary and scripture based on god dependent on it not equal.

Its like saying you can get to your destination to your left and i ask which direction would you take left or right snd you say both.

 

[Vinayaka]

Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry | Equipping the Saints. Reaching the Lost.

The problem with CARM is not their hate but they have a worldview that excludes the validity of other's faiths, simply because it is not 'Christian' as they understand it. They are so convinced as to the truth of Jesus as they see Him, everything else must be wrong. So there is no point at looking at the Baha'is or Hindus in any depth because it has no substance and is wrong. It is wrong and has no substance because it is not 'Christian'. So in short it is a complete waste of time reading their literature as it is so biased.

The approach I take to Hinduism is simple. I either use Wikipedia, the encyclopaedia Britannica, or something scholarly along with the Hindu website you provided us many months back. I'm entirely comfortable looking at Hinduism from a more fact based perspective. I have no axe to grind with Hinduism, no need to discredit it or disparage it. There are problems with Hinduism of course and they have emerged through the reading I have done or the discussions we have had. Naturally there are conflicts with my Baha'i worldview such as with reincarnation. As mentioned I'm prepared to concede we can not easily prove or disprove from a rational, scientific perspective whether reincarnation is true or not.

When investigating another's religion we each need to find the approach that we are comfortable with. What works for me investigating Hinduism may not work for you investigating the Baha'i Faith. It seems important to access information that is fair and balanced though. Baha'is, like Hindus, are the ones that know their religion the best. So Baha'i sources and recognised 'neutral sources' seems like the best approach. I have never seen a Christian or Islamic site that presents the Baha'i faith fairly. I can't imagine they will be too much help for me investigating Hinduism.

So do you have a recommendation of any non-Baha'i site that explores Baha'i?

 

[Dawnofhope]

I don't understand. What I said was standing up for your rights. Do you think women, minorities, or gays standing up for the same rights others get could lead to extremism? I don't see that.

Any movement can become extreme, and the abused can easily become the abuser. Women can hate men, minorities can hate the main cultural group of their land, and those who identify as gay, can easily hate people like me due to my affiliation with a religion that views homosexual behaviour as immoral.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I think I have an answer. The deeds depend upon what us acceotable to God but the deeds also must be performed with belief in God. Does that make sense in the light of this statement of Baha’u’llah.

He says to belive and obey a ‘twin duties’ and neither is acceptable without the other. So belief alone without deeds is unacceptable and deeds alone without belief is unacceptable according to Baha’u’llah.

It’s the very first law in His Most Holy Book.

“The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration.”

Excerpt From
The Kitab-i-Aqdas
Bahá’u’lláh

So I think Baha’u’llah is saying they are equal duties and neither deeds nor belief are acceptable alone.

In your first reply you mentioned spirituality above physical (you called it material/science). While I agree both are interrelated my focus was on spiritusl vs psysical.

I use catholicsm because thats the only way i understand god. (Trinitarianish view) Muslim, bahai, jewish god i dont understand. But i get the context of bahai quotes but not the fou datio to relate it to my understanding.

If they are interelated, why spiritual before physical?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Could be. Personally, I wouldn't know. I don't have that ability.

I agree neither do I. We are very fortunate we can choose our path in trying to understand. Many are persecuted and are denied that freedom of choice.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

As predicted, you simply dismissed it. That's why I don't feel its useful to find sites that demonstrate vast differences, and link them. Far too easily dismissed. I seriously doubt you even read it.

But here's another one anyway, for you to not read and dismiss nonchalantly.

Christianity vs Hinduism - Difference and Comparison | Diffen

I see a list of man made differences - Texts from the Founders are needed and compare them.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

So do you have a recommendation of any non-Baha'i site that explores Baha'i?

Bahá'í Faith - Wikipedia

Wikipedia has a wealth of information about the Baha'i Faith.

In some ways it is shocking and disturbing how much misinformation is out there on the web. It is, what it is.

 

[Vinayaka]

Any movement can become extreme, and the abused can easily become the abuser. Women can hate men, minorities can hate the main cultural group of their land, and those who identify as gay, can easily hate people like me due to my affiliation with a religion that views homosexual behaviour as immoral.

I have yet to observe any group, other than Islamic Extremists, and the Extreme Right getting that far. The occasional individual, sure. India was really different in this regard, as it was the majority being discriminated against and still is. Have you seen gays or women resort to violence? Of course it's a yes to minorities. The Tamils of Sri Lanka come to mind, and there are more.

 

[Vinayaka]

I see a list of man made differences - Texts from the Founders are needed and compare them.

Yes of course.. as I predicted.

Where do you think these ideas that are restated came from? The thin air?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I have never seen a Christian or Islamic site that presents the Baha'i faith fairly

The Catholic Faith has done so - Bahai News -- A document by the Roman Catholic Church re the Baha'i Faith

I have found a few well balanced Catholics on Forum Discussions.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes of course.. as I predicted.

Where do you think these ideas that are restated came from? The thin air?

Luckily God has given me my own mind to think about those same passages and not to blindly accept another mans view.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

Bahá'í Faith - Wikipedia
Wikipedia has a wealth of information about the Baha'i Faith.

And, unfortunately I don't really trust it, as the nature of Wiki is that anyone willing to take the time can edit, re-write, etc., and it is almost entirely written by Baha'is themselves. Still, it does say more than the direct official Baha'i site.

 

[Vinayaka]

Luckily God has given me my own mind to think about those same passages and not to blindly accept another mans view.

So then Baha'u'llah isn't actually infallible, in your view. That's good to know, Tony. It's a huge step out of the box.