How are these Great Beings explained?

[Vinayaka]

as any search undertaken will be feed by preconceived ideas.

Indeed. On all sides.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Most of the anti-Baha'i sites just quote from Baha'i sources, and then point out the contradiction. The discrimination against women sitting on the UHJ is probably the most common. There is no lie or deception here at all. The 'extreme anti Baha'i nutjobs' just state the facts. Women can't sit on the UHJ. It's a fact.

We should first investigate. If we recognize that the Baha'i Faith is truly a divine revelation, then we must accept all its laws. We must not say why or what for. But to reject it, just because if we do not like some of its laws and ordinances, is not seemly. Does God reveal His laws according to everyone's wishes, or rather everyone beside God must set aside his wishes and follow God?

 

[loverofhumanity]

People are changing en-masse about homosexuality. There are some, like the Baha'i' that can't seem to catch up.

I know you don't see the contradiction in your second sentence, but trust me, it's there. The message is loud and clear. Words and actions aren't corresponding.

God has given His guidance on this matter and we Baha’is choose to follow His Path not what is so called ‘popular’.

 

[oldbadger]

That's just sad.

Yes.
The only reason I have needed to paste such reports is to show that Muslim parents were desperate to have their children learn the Qu'ran because it opens doors to heaven..... for parents.

Whilst Bahauallah's father was no doubt more kind to his sons than the reports of the UK in the 2010's there is little doubt that to produce any stories about how Bahauallah's father was disinterested in his son's education is ....... fabrication from the past.

 

[oldbadger]

I'm glad the internet is a free place, for more reasons than this, obviously. Still, some governments are adamant and willfully ban certain websites. That's why many proselytising faiths are still somewhat successful in poor villages where there is no access to 'the other side'.

I.T. has helped, but especially the Sat-Phone has helped to bring news out, from crushed communities and dominated societies.

 

[loverofhumanity]

It is the Education of Baha'u'llah we talk about. Not about what education he 'may' have received, as seen by a person in 2017.

Thus the search needs to be on finding exactly that, not a 'maybe', based on what may have happened to a few others.

One is also concluding Baha'u'llah needed an education, thus searching with preconceived ideas will not find the truth, as any search undertaken will be fed by preconceived ideas.

Regards Tony

I think we need to go back to Baha’u’llah’s Words where He said in a letter to the Shah I think...

The learning current amongst men I studied not; their schools I entered not. Ask of the city wherein I dwelt, that thou mayest be well assured that I am not of them who speak falsely.

If there was some actual proof otherwise it would be all over the internet and in books published far and wide but it’s not. People are actually clutching at straws trying to assume He was a student in some way.

So how did Baha’u’llah receive knowledge? Those skeptical put it down to ‘home tuition’ which is also false. But there is another way Baha’u’llah did receive education but not from schools or men or teachers and He explains it here....

“Thou knowest full well that We perused not the books which men possess and We acquired not the learning current amongst them, and yet whenever We desire to quote the sayings of the learned and of the wise, presently there will appear before the face of thy Lord in the form of a tablet all that which hath appeared in the world and is revealed in the Holy Books and Scriptures.”

Excerpt From
Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh
Bahá’u’lláh

So even when quoting some books He always had access to this ‘tablet’ containing all knowledge. It doesn’t matter whether physical books were brought to Him or not He had access to Divine knowledge of all that had appeared in the world past, present and future.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yes.
The only reason I have needed to paste such reports is to show that Muslim parents were desperate to have their children learn the Qu'ran because it opens doors to heaven..... for parents.

Whilst Bahauallah's father was no doubt more kind to his sons than the reports of the UK in the 2010's there is little doubt that to produce any stories about how Bahauallah's father was disinterested in his son's education is ....... fabrication from the past.

In Revelation Writing Baha’u’llah would dictate while His secretaries wrote it down. It was so copious it could not have been made up and many secretaries could not keep up with Him.

It was innate knowledge not rehearsed, learned by heart or a knowledge taught in schools. It was revealed instantly without thought.

“Thou knowest full well that We perused not the books which men possess and We acquired not the learning current amongst them, and yet whenever We desire to quote the sayings of the learned and of the wise,presently there will appear before the face of thy Lord in the form of a tablet all that which hath appeared in the world and is revealed in the Holy Books and Scriptures.”

Excerpt From
Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh
Bahá’u’lláh

 

[oldbadger]

It is the Education of Baha'u'llah we talk about. Not about what education he 'may' have received, as seen by a person in 2017.

Regards Tony

We have already read that Bahauallah received specialised personal instruction in subjects important to the young son of a wealthy, influential powerful official! He learned horse riding, and shotting and many other subjects probably to a very high standard.

But Bahai claims that his Dad was indifferent tyo his religious education?

Nobody with a balanced level of reason would accept the silly stories, trying to prove that God's Divine Knowledge descended from the Heavens. What nonsense!

And IF God's Divine Knowledge descended upon the young man, how come that he just ignored all that and did what he wanted, taking three wives etc?

This is how the rubbish about Jesus got started, which your intelligence auto-refutes.

 

[oldbadger]

In Revelation Writing Baha’u’llah would dictate while His secretaries wrote it down. It was so copious it could not have been made up and many secretaries could not keep up with Him.

What a laugh! How many times have I read about how destitute poor, unprivileged and burdened was your Prophet. Yet here is he is, surrounded by secretaries!
It begins to look as if Bahais might be blinded to the common sense of individual investigation!

It was innate knowledge not rehearsed, learned by heart or a knowledge taught in schools. It was revealed instantly without thought.

He was a Hafiz........ I don't doubt it!

“Thou knowest full well that We perused not the books which men possess and We acquired not the learning current amongst them, and yet whenever We desire to quote the sayings of the learned and of the wise,presently there will appear before the face of thy Lord in the form of a tablet all that which hath appeared in the world and is revealed in the Holy Books and Scriptures.”

Excerpt From
Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh

How similar to the claims of Joseph Smith, who found Golden tablets with the Divine guidance and words of God thereupon.

Have you ever thought of researching the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints? If not, why not? Joseph Smith claimed just such Divine intervention, so surely you would take careful notice of this?

But somehow I'll guess that you never gave it another thought, which is where I am after researching Bahai and its claims.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Apparently over a billion people disagree. Many more if you count all the non-Muslims who would disagree too. This reminds me so much of all the Christian churches who claim their particular branch is the only true one.
It doesn't have to be that way.

When Christ was crucified His handful of disciples fled and even Peter whom He asked to look after His community denied Him thrice. Now 1/3 of the world's population identify as Christian and Muslim's who make up nearly 1/4 of the world's population see Christ as an important prophet. So I am not too concerned about the billion or so Muslim's who disagree.

One Muslim who investigated the Bab's claim was Vahid, a trusted advisor of the of the Shah of Persia. Vahid was considered one of the most learned men of his day. After several meetings with the Bab he determined that the Bab was indeed the promised 12th Imam, and chose to follow him rather than return to the Shah.

The Bábí Movement | What Bahá’ís Believe

 

[Dawnofhope]

That's going to be difficult for bahai, because simple facts fly the world in seconds now, and to show the people just how contrived all this numerological prophesy is, all that needs to be done is to show that one of the keystone numbers is not 666 but 616.

It's no good to stff fingers in ears, close eyes and shut out such historical differences...... you would need to grasp them and INVESTIGATE them.

Here are some leads out of hundreds.:-

Number of the Beast - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_the_Beast
In most manuscripts of the New Testament and in English translations of the Bible
, the number of the beast is 666. Papyrus 115 (which is the oldest preserved
manuscript of the Revelation as of 2017), as well as other ancient sources like
Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus, give the Number of the Beast as 616 (χιϛ), not 666;
...
616 (number) - 666 (number) - Papyrus 115 - Gematria

616 (number) - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/616_(number)
616
(six hundred [and] sixteen) is the natural number following 615 and
preceding 617. While 666 is called the "number of the beast" in most manuscripts
of Revelation 13:18, a fragment of papyrus 115 gives the number as 616.
Contents. [hide]. 1 In mathematics; 2 The Number of the Beast; 3 In other fields; 4
References ...

Like many aspects of Christian history, it is far from conclusive either way. If there are two views of history, one that supports the mainstream belief and the other contradicts it, you seem to always end up on the side that opposes. Funny thing that.

I would lean towards Irenaeus's view rather than the said fragment. Then again I also have my infallible 'I'm right and your wrong' prophet that supports my more conservative leaning beliefs about the historic Christ and authentic scripture.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Ah........ you didn't know. OK.
I'm going to keep this short because with patience you can find many many references to the discarded, lost and burned booked about Jesus, but I will intyroduce you to just one website about the deceptions, and one other reference about how the Council of Nicea met to decide 'What Jesus was to become', 'What Christianity was to believe' and such stuff.

Jesus was without any doubt a Magi, what was then known as (Greek) Tekton, or (E.Aramaic) Nagar or possibly Nagara. His abilities were stunning to the people and thus he was worthy of such title.

But, unlike you and me, Christians needed to believe that he was not a magi, but a 'death to life' miracle worker the Son of God. The following works show how Christians utterly obliterated such reports, whilst building their own suitable God.

You can't beat humans for corruption.
www.smirkingchimp.com/.../playing-with-fire-on-christian-book-burning
Christians have a long tradition of book burning, dating back to the first decades of what some call the "Jesus movement." The Book of Acts in the New Testament
records how Christian believers in Ephesus collected books with offensive content (involving "magic" and "spells") "made a bonfire of them in ...
-------------------------------------------
......and................
Development of the Christian biblical canon
There is no record of any discussion of the biblical canon at the council.[75] The development of the biblical canon took centuries, and was nearly complete (with exceptions known as the Antilegomena, written texts whose authenticity or value is disputed) by the time the Muratorian fragment was written.[76]
In 331, Constantine commissioned fifty Bibles for the Church of Constantinople, but little else is known (in fact, it is not even certain whether his request was for fifty copies of the entire Old and New Testaments, only the New Testament, or merely the Gospels). Some scholars believe that this request provided motivation for canon lists. In Jerome's Prologue to Judith,[77] he claims that the Book of Judith was "found by the Nicene Council to have been counted among the number of the Sacred Scriptures", which some have suggested means the Nicene Council did discuss what documents would number among the sacred scriptures, but more likely simply means the Council used Judith in its deliberations on other matters and so it should be considered canonical.
The main source of the idea that the Bible was created at the Council of Nicea seems to be Voltaire, who popularised a story that the canon was determined by placing all the competing books on an altar during the Council and then keeping the ones that did not fall off. The original source of this "fictitious anecdote" is the Synodicon Vetus,[78] a pseudo-historical account of early Church councils from AD 887:[79]
The canonical and apocryphal books it distinguished in the following manner: in the house of God the books were placed down by the holy altar; then the council asked the Lord in prayer that the inspired works be found on top and--as in fact happened--the spurious on the bottom.[80]

None of the links provided work unfortunately as I wanted to better understand your views.

I'm certainly familiar with some of the history of selecting books in the fourth century and the influence of Constantine. He wasn't too keen on the works of Arius and of course ordered their destruction. However Arius works were not in the same league as any of the NT books. Other books simply didn't make the grade. From a Baha'i perspective, the NT books are all fine and no additions or deletions are required. I know that's not your belief. We both have biblical scholars that make compelling arguments either way.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What a laugh! How many times have I read about how destitute poor, unprivileged and burdened was your Prophet. Yet here is he is, surrounded by secretaries!
It begins to look as if Bahais might be blinded to the common sense of individual investigation!

You have by this comment, shown one of the Proofs of Baha'u'llah. His fellow Prisoners and exiles taking on the task of His secretaries.

they had a lot to do as well - Leiden List - Thank you Sen and others for this.

The secretaries wrote so fast at times, that they themselves could not read their own short hand and they would give it to Baha'u'llah and He would tell them what they had written. Quite amazing actually, as there was no need to reflect on what was being revealed and then having 100% recollection of the whole Tablet, even when 100 of pages long.

"Revelation" writing - The Life of Bahá'u'lláh

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

We must not say why or what for. But to reject it, just because if we do not like some of its laws and ordinances, is not seemly.

Obviously a person can reject stuff if the laws and ordinance don't make sense. Common sense can easily prevail over stuff that makes no sense to an individual. That's as far as any 'investigation' has to go really. I personally couldn't be member of any faith that is loaded with contradictory messages. But some people, because of their nature, can. Same as buying a car. Some people could never buy with a standard transmission, because they wouldn't be able to drive it.

 

[Vinayaka]

God has given His guidance on this matter and we Baha’is choose to follow His Path not what is so called ‘popular’.

Not my God's guidance, as my God loves all and is in all. Since She/He is in everything, by rejecting certain people, you're rejecting God. So we worship different Gods I guess. But that's fine. Let the people choose, and I suspect most would choose a God of Love.

 

[Vinayaka]

One Muslim who investigated the Bab's claim was Vahid, a trusted advisor of the of the Shah of Persia. Vahid was considered one of the most learned men of his day. After several meetings with the Bab he determined that the Bab was indeed the promised 12th Imam, and chose to follow him rather than return to the Shah.

The Bábí Movement | What Bahá’ís Believe

Yes, if a million (exaggeration for effect) people investigate something, I'm sure one or maybe even two would find something all the rest disagreed with. This is selective anecdotal evidence at its best, clearly, as I can't see the Baha'i sharing information of anyone who came to the other conclusion. Of course they would all be wrong.

Lots of people have indeed investigated and found lots and lots of contradictions, trouble in paradise, and more. Baha'i's eill only share the stories that agree with the agenda.

I remember a Sai Baba acquaintance here who was bragging to me how some Bigshot in the local community had joined him in the acceptance of Sai Baba as God. (Yes, they claim Sai Baba to be the avatar of all avatars! Same belief as Baha'i, different person) When I reminded him of the hundred or so who hadn't, he shut up.

 

[Vinayaka]

In a Bahai World, I suspect that any publication of criticism against Bahai would attract the religious police, because, of course, Bahai would be doing God's work in crushing such wicked thoughts.

Not just suspicions here. It results in loss of membership, and if taken to extreme, declared a Covenant Breaker. Thank God for free societies.

 

[Vinayaka]

How similar to the claims of Joseph Smith, who found Golden tablets with the Divine guidance and words of God thereupon.

.

It's a pattern. I call it 'prophet syndrome'. It's the need for some special man who can do everything. Infallibility and more. Little wonder Superman comics were popular. Perhaps it's a psychological reaction to finding out your own Daddy isn't perfect, so you have to replace him with some mythical figure that is. It's so odd to me, and so totally unnecessary. Life goes on perfectly fine without the belief in one.

I understand that some men/women are exceptionally wise, even Self-realised, but when its stretched way beyond that into this tall tale fantasy figure of glowing perfection and unending glowing attributes, it can only be understood as some deep psychological need that some of us don't understand because we've never been there.

One wonders if these guys ever had to eat physical food or go to the loo.

 

[oldbadger]

Like many aspects of Christian history, it is far from conclusive either way. If there are two views of history, one that supports the mainstream belief and the other contradicts it, you seem to always end up on the side that opposes. Funny thing that.

What...... like you, who opposes the very foundation of Christian doctrine?
And just how many 'sides' of how many mainstream beliefs have I ended up on?
Your prejudice is showing as strongly as your agenda, imo.

I would lean towards Irenaeus's view rather than the said fragment. Then again I also have my infallible 'I'm right and your wrong' prophet that supports my more conservative leaning beliefs about the historic Christ and authentic scripture.

No you don't. You don't believe in the raising of dead bodies, you don't believe in the resurrection......... you don't have a conservative leaning towards Christianity, or so we have read.

It's the old double-think again, you'll be with it when it suits, and against it when it does not suit.

Now off you go and find any case of that with me......... Funny thing, that.

 

[oldbadger]

None of the links provided work unfortunately as I wanted to better understand your views.

I'm certainly familiar with some of the history of selecting books in the fourth century and the influence of Constantine. He wasn't too keen on the works of Arius and of course ordered their destruction. However Arius works were not in the same league as any of the NT books. Other books simply didn't make the grade. From a Baha'i perspective, the NT books are all fine and no additions or deletions are required. I know that's not your belief. We both have biblical scholars that make compelling arguments either way.

I have reason to believe that they piled the books high. I'm sorry the links did not open, but there are so many on the subject..... take your pick.