CG Didymus
Veteran Member
I think I know how to get started. I'll get some agenda and find quotes that support it. The shorter the better. I don't want to get to much context getting in the way.
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How are these Great Beings explained?
- Thread starter loverofhumanity
- Start date
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
There are certain things that I think if we make a careful observation, and critical analysis, we would readily realize the Writings of the Bab and Baha'u'llah are supernatural acts.
The first thing which needs to be recognized, is that the Writings of the Bab and Baha'u'llah in the eyes of those who were learned and expert in the field of Religions and Writings are extraordinary and excellent. This is clearly established historically, based on the testimonies of many of the learned and scholars.
Khalil Gibran, a well-known Arabic Writer, had "declared that Bahá'u'lláh's Arabic writings were the most "stupendous literature that ever was written." Kahlil Gibran
Another example is a well-known learned Mulsim, who later converted to Baha'i Faith. He has written:
"When we look at the surging ocean of Bahá'u'lláh's Writings against a background of a life of suffering, imprisonment, privation and manifold calamities, we are amazed at the vastness, the range and the rare quality of this priceless heritage which He has bequeathed to posterity. Indeed no human mind can chart the extent or fathom the depths of this immense ocean or appreciate the true value and significance of those myriads of priceless gems which are enshrined in it. One striking feature of Bahá'u'lláh's Writings is its prodigious flow."
There are many of such testimonies, with regards to quality of the Writings of the Bab and Baha'u'llah, however for brevity, I only mentioned the above, and if you were to investigate, you could find other instances.
Next thing to know is about the rapidity of the Writing of the verses. In both cases many of the eyewitnesses have testified to the extraordinary rapidity of writings of the verses, for instance, with regards to Baha'u'llah's Writings, some eye-witnesses have said::
"`Day and night,' an eye-witness has written, `the Divine verses were raining down in such number that it was impossible to record them. Mírzá Áqá Ján wrote them as they were dictated [by Baha'u'llah], while the Most Great Branch [i.e. Abdulbaha] was continually occupied in transcribing them. There was not a moment to spare.' `A number of secretaries,' Nabíl has testified, `were busy day and night and yet they were unable to cope with the task. Among them was Mírzá Báqir-i-Shírází.... He alone transcribed no less than two thousand verses every day. He laboured during six or seven months. Every month the equivalent of several volumes would be transcribed by him and sent to Persia. ....'"https://bahailibrary.com/khavari_writings_bahaullah
Many had witnessed similarly in other occasions. But for brevity I am not mentioning more here, there is however a well-known and interesting case with regards to the Bab, which I suggest you read it from the following link, starting at "Muḥammad Sháh himself was moved to ascertain the veracity of these reports and to enquire into their nature. He delegated Siyyid Yaḥyáy-i-Darábí, the most learned, the most eloquent, and the most influential of his subjects, to interview the Báb and to report to him the results of his investigations."
Bahá'í Reference Library - The Dawn-Breakers: Nabíl’s Narrative of the Early Days of the Bahá’í Revelation, Pages 170-199
Now, I said from beginning that in the eyes of those who were expert in religions and Classical Arabic, the Writings of the Bab and Baha'u'llah were extraordinary and excellent; by this, I do not want to immediately jump into conclusion that, extraordinary means necessarily supernatural. But just to first point out, that when a man's work is excellent, this observation must come first from the opinion of the experts. Consider, there are excellent painters or writers, but if someone is not interested in Paintings or Writings their works are not special in his eyes, because firstly he does not appreciate such arts, and secondly he does not understand how difficult it is to produce those works by ordinary people.
Now, it is a fact that, the Quran had challenged all who disbelieve in it, in this way: 'no one can bring verses like Quran'. Now despite the fact that many tried to refute Muhammad in many ways, yet, no one could disprove Him by bringing verses like Quran, to show ordinary men can do that too, and it is not God's, until when 1260 years passed from beginning of Islam, two Men (i.e. the Bab and Bahaullah) appeared from a country with a language other than Arabic, who brought verses like Quran, and many of the Scholars who had spent years studying Islam, had testified that they believe they are like Quran.
Now, the point is, it is indeed extraordinary, for if it was not extraordinary, then many other ordinary men would have produced chapters like Quran, and this is how extraordinary is defined that is an act that is not normally seen to be taken by others. Those scholars who went to school for many years to learn Quran, understand that is very difficult to say the least.
Now, there is a point here, which needs giving it a careful attention, and that thing is the fact that, all those who show excellency in a field, do not produce their excellent work over night and suddenly, but they practice for a long time, and gradually improve their skills until they reach to the point they can produce masterworks, that appears to others as extraordinary works.
For instance, in history those who produced masterworks such as Paintings, they had to practice for many years to gradually improve their skills, till finally they reached to the point they were able to produce masterworks. The point is, no matter how smart and clever a man is, no matter how much he looks at the Paintings of others, or listens to the talks and advises of other excellent painters, he cannot all the sudden start producing excellent paintings, unless he actually practices Painting for a 'reasonable time'. The same is the case with producing and composing excellent Writings and Books. No matter, how smart, and clever a person is, one cannot imagine he could possibly 'Naturally' produce excellent Writings by only listening and talking to scholars or even reading many Books of others. To produce such excellent works, specially in a language which is not his own mother tongue and writing very rapidly, one needs not only to be clever and smart, but also, had practiced Writing them for a 'reasonable time', so, he can show this ability of writing verses to other in such a rapid manner, while being able to compose works that appears to be excellent to the scholars. Again it should be noted, the scholars of Islam, spend many years at school, and still not too many of them can become well-versed in classical Arabic. This can be investigated, if you wish to. Methinks, it would be as if, someone who speaks English, all the sudden produces excellent books in old biblical Greek or Hebrew, so fluently and fast. Is it possible to do that without significant prior trainitng and practicing writing in such old languages? It is for this reason, we can see the learned of Persia who could write somethings in Classical Arabic prouded themselves of their own leanings.
Now, let's be fair, where is the evidence that the Bab or Baha'u'llah had practiced 'Writing Books or Verses' to improve their Writing skills? What is seen from history, is, when it was the time of Their Mission, They all the sudden begin to Write in extraordinary manner, and excellent qualities. When the Bab was only 24 years old, He suddenly began Writings verses and composing Books very quickly, but from beginning of His life, there is no evidence that He was practicing to become skillful. Likewise, when Baha'u'llah was about 36, He all the Sudden begin Writing Books rapidly in Arabic.
Continued.....
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InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Continued....
Even if one was to take the statements of Baha'u'llah's sister who had become His enemy true at face value, there is nothing in it, that indicates Bahaullah was practicing Writings. Let's look at what she wrote:
"The Mirza (meaning Bahaullah), who was your father, from the beginning of his life to when he came of age-because the means were at hand and because of the gathering of the companions-was engrossed in studying and endeavored in homework . He wouldn’t disengage from learning the rudiments for a moment. After studying the rudiments of Arabic and literature he inclined towards the science of philosophy (hikmat) and mysticism (irfan) so that he might benefit from these. It was such that he would spend most of the day and night socializing with high statured philosophers and the gatherings of mystics and Sufis. When it was blown in Seraph’s Trumpet of Appearance (meaning when the Bab made his claims), he (meaning Bahaullah) was a man who had seen most of the words and phrases of the mystics and philosophers and had heard and understood most of the signs of the appearance (of the Mahdi) . . . after returning from Badasht and after the Shaykh Tabarsi Fort war was over, he was engaged day and night in socializing with great Islamic scholars and followers of mysticism . . .
Can we say this letter denotes Bahaullah practiced extensive Writings books, or Arabics prior to His mission? Not unless one reads or interprets it more than what it says, for the first part of her letter talks about rudimentary homeworks when Bahaullah was a child, and the second part has nothing in it denoting anything regarding practicing Writings or Books or verses. So, from His childhood or when He was a teenager till when He was 36 years, there passed many years, with no evidence that He practiced writing advance Arabic to develop such skills in the language to even impress Scholars. Now, in the followings I will show evidences to point out why such statements from His sister are either inaccurate or it should not be interpreted to mean substantial education.
Again, here a careful observation and fair judgement is required. The most important evidence is the fact that some of the sincere believers of the Bab and Bahaullah were their own close family and relatives. Now, I said sincere believers, because the sign of sincere belief is willingness to suffer, and even die for belief.
Consider that during the early years, in the place that Baha'u'llah was growing up, His brothers were living together. One of them was Mirza Musa who 'experienced the same imprisonment, exile, assaults, and degrading circumstances that were given to the small band of family members associated with Bahá'u'lláh'
In the history of the Bahá'í cause, Mírzá Músá stands out as a loyal and faithful follower until the end.
Now it is obvious that, if Bahaullah had spent any time to study or practice writings, his brother would have known for sure. See what Bahaullah wrote about His brother:
"This brother of Mine, this Mirza Musa, who is from the same mother and father as Myself, and who from his earliest childhood has kept Me company...."
Mírzá Músá - Wikipedia
Therefore, let's be fair. When Bahaullah had repeatedly claimed that His knowledge does not come from learning or reading, if this was not true, would His brother who knew Him from childhood still remain a believer in Him in such a way to go through imprisonment and exile for His belief? a fair judgement is required. Therefore, the statements of His sister, as well as any other statements about Bahaullah's encountering with scholars must be understood in the light of such evidences seen from His brother.
The same truth can be established with regards to the Bab. Let's carefully examine the Book of Certitude which Bahaullah wrote to answer the questions of the Uncle of the Bab. Bahaullah in that Book wrote:
"Therefore, should a person arise and bring forth a myriad verses, discourses, epistles, and prayers, none of which have been acquired through learning, what conceivable excuse could justify those that reject them, and deprive themselves of the potency of their grace? "
Here, Bahaullah telling the uncle of the Bab who was so close to the Bab and knew Him from childhood, that your nephew who wrote so many verses and Holy Books, had not studied any of it before, but without a prior learning was able to do so, thus what excuse is there to reject Him?
For obvious reason, this statement of Bahaullah was acceptable to the uncle of the Bab. Now let's think, Had the Bab have such religious educations prior to His mission, is it not reasonable that His immediate family would have known? Not withstanding that according to History, this same uncle after encountering with the reasoning of Bahaullah, became such a firm believer.
Even if one was to take the statements of Baha'u'llah's sister who had become His enemy true at face value, there is nothing in it, that indicates Bahaullah was practicing Writings. Let's look at what she wrote:
"The Mirza (meaning Bahaullah), who was your father, from the beginning of his life to when he came of age-because the means were at hand and because of the gathering of the companions-was engrossed in studying and endeavored in homework . He wouldn’t disengage from learning the rudiments for a moment. After studying the rudiments of Arabic and literature he inclined towards the science of philosophy (hikmat) and mysticism (irfan) so that he might benefit from these. It was such that he would spend most of the day and night socializing with high statured philosophers and the gatherings of mystics and Sufis. When it was blown in Seraph’s Trumpet of Appearance (meaning when the Bab made his claims), he (meaning Bahaullah) was a man who had seen most of the words and phrases of the mystics and philosophers and had heard and understood most of the signs of the appearance (of the Mahdi) . . . after returning from Badasht and after the Shaykh Tabarsi Fort war was over, he was engaged day and night in socializing with great Islamic scholars and followers of mysticism . . .
Can we say this letter denotes Bahaullah practiced extensive Writings books, or Arabics prior to His mission? Not unless one reads or interprets it more than what it says, for the first part of her letter talks about rudimentary homeworks when Bahaullah was a child, and the second part has nothing in it denoting anything regarding practicing Writings or Books or verses. So, from His childhood or when He was a teenager till when He was 36 years, there passed many years, with no evidence that He practiced writing advance Arabic to develop such skills in the language to even impress Scholars. Now, in the followings I will show evidences to point out why such statements from His sister are either inaccurate or it should not be interpreted to mean substantial education.
Again, here a careful observation and fair judgement is required. The most important evidence is the fact that some of the sincere believers of the Bab and Bahaullah were their own close family and relatives. Now, I said sincere believers, because the sign of sincere belief is willingness to suffer, and even die for belief.
Consider that during the early years, in the place that Baha'u'llah was growing up, His brothers were living together. One of them was Mirza Musa who 'experienced the same imprisonment, exile, assaults, and degrading circumstances that were given to the small band of family members associated with Bahá'u'lláh'
In the history of the Bahá'í cause, Mírzá Músá stands out as a loyal and faithful follower until the end.
Now it is obvious that, if Bahaullah had spent any time to study or practice writings, his brother would have known for sure. See what Bahaullah wrote about His brother:
"This brother of Mine, this Mirza Musa, who is from the same mother and father as Myself, and who from his earliest childhood has kept Me company...."
Mírzá Músá - Wikipedia
Therefore, let's be fair. When Bahaullah had repeatedly claimed that His knowledge does not come from learning or reading, if this was not true, would His brother who knew Him from childhood still remain a believer in Him in such a way to go through imprisonment and exile for His belief? a fair judgement is required. Therefore, the statements of His sister, as well as any other statements about Bahaullah's encountering with scholars must be understood in the light of such evidences seen from His brother.
The same truth can be established with regards to the Bab. Let's carefully examine the Book of Certitude which Bahaullah wrote to answer the questions of the Uncle of the Bab. Bahaullah in that Book wrote:
"Therefore, should a person arise and bring forth a myriad verses, discourses, epistles, and prayers, none of which have been acquired through learning, what conceivable excuse could justify those that reject them, and deprive themselves of the potency of their grace? "
Here, Bahaullah telling the uncle of the Bab who was so close to the Bab and knew Him from childhood, that your nephew who wrote so many verses and Holy Books, had not studied any of it before, but without a prior learning was able to do so, thus what excuse is there to reject Him?
For obvious reason, this statement of Bahaullah was acceptable to the uncle of the Bab. Now let's think, Had the Bab have such religious educations prior to His mission, is it not reasonable that His immediate family would have known? Not withstanding that according to History, this same uncle after encountering with the reasoning of Bahaullah, became such a firm believer.
To conclude, having the ability to produce such works in such a rapidity as the Bab and Bahaullah did, while the historical evidences disproves They had any substantial education in Religion, and Practicing Writings, is indeed an act of supernatural. If you wanted to make a reply, please read the points I made carefully, so, we can have a meaningful discussion.
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People gave politicians the power to do what they like and it has to be people uniting all over the world to take that power ack and change the rules.
That’s why Baha’u’llah appealed to people to unite so no minority can do whatever it wants and get away with it.
If the entire world is united against war I.e armies refuse to fight, people refuse to make weapons then they’ll be taken seriously. Just protesting achieves nothing.
It takes time to build a consensus but at least Baha’is are amongst those trying and not just sitting on their hands waiting for world peace to happen because it won’t unless people make it happen and that means a lot of people uniting.
I’m not talking about the beast. I’m talking about the duration of Islam as prophesied in the Bible which is 1260 Muslim Years which means Islam is to last until 1844 and then another Messenger is to come.
The beast as I understand it is referring to militant Islam which began by the year 666 AD with the Umayyad Dynasty.
“By this beast is meant the Umayyads, who assailed these witnesses from the pit of error. And indeed it came to pass that the Umayyads assailed the religion of Muḥammad and the truth of ‘Alí, which consist in the love of God.”
Excerpt From
Some Answered Questions
‘Abdu’l‑Bahá
Nothing will change unless people en masses want change.
A prophecy like ‘the government shall be upon His shoulders’ probably refers to a time when people will have willingly embraced Bahaullah’s System voluntarily. Until then people will just go their own way and do as they please.
We can only marry a man and a woman but we promote freedom from prejudice against all prejudices and discrimination and that includes people of different sexual orientation. Baha’u’llah said only security personnel should carry arms and we are against abortion unless the mother or child’s like is endangered. Rape also may be an exception but I don’t know for sure.
I'm just highlighting when the Caliphate of the Ottoman Empire officially ended.
The Turkish War of Independence ended with the Turkish nationalists in control of much of Anatolia. On 1 November 1922 the Turkish provisional government formally declared the Ottoman Sultanate and, with it, the Ottoman Empire to be abolished. Mehmed VI departed Constantinople and into exile on 17 November 1922.
Defeat and dissolution of the Ottoman Empire - Wikipedia
The Ottoman Empire was important in a number of respects to the book of revelation, not least because along with Umayyads and Abassids it represented the corrupted theology of Islam.
1260 AH is the year in the Islamic Calendar that the Bab declared.
No, The Baha'i Faith is the true Islam as the Bab represented the emergence of the 12th Imam. The Umayyad Caliphate was established after the first Imam Ali was murdered.
Mahdi - Wikipedia
The true Islam was born in 1844
Revelation 12:1-2
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
Oh, we've been doing that, right here.
Many of us have been researching, questioning and investigating the Thread Title in concentrated searches. Speaking for self I came here with many reservations, but after all this, bahai has lost any credibility that might have lurked within.
It might surprise many that I consider that result to be a success'. When I trained investigators some would be really pleased when they caught out a person in tests or detections. I told them again and again that they must work in total impartiality, totally detached from results. The results are the results. Write the results. Give evidence about the results. Only.
No agenda. Just a good hard deep journey of discovery.
That's been happening, right here.
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
I don't believe that. Not at all.
Both the Bab and Bahauallah would have been made to study the Koran to perfect recall, because their Muslim parents could gain Heaven through such achievement.
No Muslim parent witholds the Koran from their children, none.
Such claims are simply unbelievable.
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
That's going to be difficult for bahai, because simple facts fly the world in seconds now, and to show the people just how contrived all this numerological prophesy is, all that needs to be done is to show that one of the keystone numbers is not 666 but 616.
It's no good to stff fingers in ears, close eyes and shut out such historical differences...... you would need to grasp them and INVESTIGATE them.
Here are some leads out of hundreds.:-
Number of the Beast - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_the_Beast
In most manuscripts of the New Testament and in English translations of the Bible
, the number of the beast is 666. Papyrus 115 (which is the oldest preserved
manuscript of the Revelation as of 2017), as well as other ancient sources like
Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus, give the Number of the Beast as 616 (χιϛ), not 666;
...
616 (number) - 666 (number) - Papyrus 115 - Gematria
616 (number) - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/616_(number)
616
(six hundred [and] sixteen) is the natural number following 615 and
preceding 617. While 666 is called the "number of the beast" in most manuscripts
of Revelation 13:18, a fragment of papyrus 115 gives the number as 616.
Contents. [hide]. 1 In mathematics; 2 The Number of the Beast; 3 In other fields; 4
References ...
People are changing en-masse about homosexuality. There are some, like the Baha'i' that can't seem to catch up.
I know you don't see the contradiction in your second sentence, but trust me, it's there. The message is loud and clear. Words and actions aren't corresponding.
To think that you can judge someone's spirituality on the basis of the number of books that they write is such folly. Isaac Asimov and Stephen King would be 'manifestations' if that were the case.
When the core is folly, no amount of words can ever prove it isn't. Here on this debate, it seems there is the belief that the more you write, the more truth it holds.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Then why there are special schools for Islamic studies in Muslim countries?
Apparently over a billion people disagree. Many more if you count all the non-Muslims who would disagree too. This reminds me so much of all the Christian churches who claim their particular branch is the only true one.
It doesn't have to be that way.
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
Times have changed!
In Britain we are struggling to enforce change here, even now.......... all British Infant and Junior schools are required to deliver teaching to a National Standard Curriculum but unfortunately some Muslim, Jewish, Christian and other schools are operating to a differing educational plan.
But back in the 1800's in Islamic countries all kids learned the Koran, and if they had perfect recall then their parents had auto-entry into heaven.
Now what parent would ignore that?
Even Bahais introduce bahai doctrine and dogma into infant and junior education. Likewise, Islam believes that the Koran supplies all that is reqiired for life.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
So in 1800's why there was special schools for Islamic Scholarship?Times have changed!
In Britain we are struggling to enforce change here, even now.......... all British Infant and Junior schools are required to deliver teaching to a National Standard Curriculum but unfortunately some Muslim, Jewish, Christian and other schools are operating to a differing educational plan.
But back in the 1800's in Islamic countries all kids learned the Koran, and if they had perfect recall then their parents had auto-entry into heaven.
Now what parent would ignore that?
Even Bahais introduce bahai doctrine and dogma into infant and junior education. Likewise, Islam believes that the Koran supplies all that is reqiired for life.
Truth is what we want to make of it. The Source of Truth is One. All points to that source.
Man makes of it what His heart, what he wishes to. If you want Oneness, you will find it.
Stay well stay happy regards Tony
Self is fed if it is looking for triumph, as Truth always sufferes with this as motivation.
Truth has not found Justice on this OP as True Justice has not been considered.
"O SON OF SPIRIT! The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes."
Baha'u'llah can only be seen through His Life and His Writings and not the myriad of hate sites and sites that contain bougus and misleading information. That is not Justice, it is a, 'I Love Winning' Procecutors perfect case, to have so many false, hand on heart, so called witnesses.
"O SON OF SPIRIT! My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, kindly and radiant heart, that thine may be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable and everlasting."
That heart does not try to dig up dirt to run with popular thought. I say this in my Love for what we are, not what we can make ourselves to be.
Maturity has shown that none of this will stop a God given Faith from growing, it will not turn the heart of a beleiver, but in fact make it stronger and in the end the ones that are effected are the ones that deliver the missinformation and those that choose to use it.
If you want to prove Baha'u'llah Wrong, you should be able to do so by His own person, life and the Word He gave. What has He said will contradict His life, if He was not Trustworthy or Trueful.
Regards Tony
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