How are these Great Beings explained?

[oldbadger]

For most Christians it would be unthinkable to simply remove one of the NT books. I had never come across such an approach until coming onto RF. But now I reflect it is a natural outcome of liberal theology that I came across when I studied briefly at world renowned seminary in my home town.

In the third century the Christians destroyed many books about Jesus and his real campaign, and killed those who spoke out against their actions.

Of course, over time they edited and added in to gospels as well, but many such entries can stand out to some investigators. Look at how they messed about with Josephus's brief mention of Jesus.

The conversations I have had with Christians about the gospel of John and Christianity, after they have quoted John 14:6 or John 1:1, have mostly become positive for both parties and resulted in each of us learning more each other's faith.

That's fine, in which case it's fairly easy to show that such Christians do not actually give a hoot for the real man and his real campaign. Jesus might just as well have not actually existed for Christians like those; a mythical Jesus might be favourable even.
After all, look at Paul's total disinterest in Yeshua the peasant, only Lord Jesus Christ, crucified, died and resurrected, together with that strange cannabistical anecdote were fit for his rants.

 

[oldbadger]

This is a big subject with much written on it. It is available on line.

Muhammad had appointed Ali as successor. The Sunni line rejected this on Muhammads death bed and became the line of Negation. Muhammad fortold of this in the supication "There is no God, but God". The Negation preceeding the affirmation.

This used by all Muslims before prayer. The bible foretold of this as the Two Witnesses in Revelation, Muhammad and Ali being clothed in sackcloth, a Faith to last 1260 years.

"..SAY, verily God hath caused all created things to enter beneath the shade of the tree of affirmation, except those who are endowed with the faculty of understanding. Theirs is the choice either to believe in God their Lord, and put their whole trust in Him, or to shut themselves out from Him and refuse to believe with certitude in His signs. These two groups sail upon two seas: the sea of affirmation and the sea of negation.
They that truly believe in God and in His signs, and who in every Dispensation faithfully obey that which hath been revealed in the Book—such are indeed the ones whom God hath created from the fruits of the Paradise of His good-pleasure, and who are of the blissful. But they who turn away from God and His signs in each Dispensation, those are the ones who sail upon the sea of negation.
God hath, through the potency of His behest, ordained for Himself the task of ensuring the ascendancy of the sea of affirmation and of bringing to naught the sea of negation through the power of His might. He is in truth potent over all things.
Verily it is incumbent upon you to recognize your Lord at the time of His manifestation, that haply ye may not enter into negation, and that, ere a prophet is raised by God, ye may find yourselves securely established upon the sea of affirmation. For if a prophet cometh to you from God and ye fail to walk in His Way, God will, thereupon, transform your light into fire. Take heed then that perchance ye may, through the grace of God and His signs, be enabled to redeem your souls." Bab XVIII, 13.

Regards Tony

Islam would, no doubt, simply feel irritated by your post, I expect.

There is no such great quantity of documentation written about this online, indeed, you could only quote from the Babi religion, much of it not used, and that piece no doubt fueled by the Bab's previous section of Islam. It's unhelpful.

Sunni Islam stretches across the majority of the Muslim World, and positively directs that each person is responsible directly to God.

Shia Islam accepts that ordained guidance exists and accepts many writings not included in the Koran, the Hadiths.

Why disguise and veil simple truth in hidden words and deceptive verses?

 

[oldbadger]

Yes, but I'm willing to learn.

Well, I'm not qualified to deliver teaching on 'the selection of hidden words, veiled meanings and deceptive verses for the purposes of adjusting policies and beliefs to fit varying requirements', which is a proper title for 'cherry-picking'.

@siti 's brighter 'n me, so he might know how to teach about it, not that he actually uses it. That could be a problem..... if you ask an exponent of cherry-picking tgo teach it, they usually hotly deny all knowledge of the subject.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Islam would, no doubt, simply feel irritated by your post, I expect.

There is no such great quantity of documentation written about this online, indeed, you could only quote from the Babi religion, much of it not used, and that piece no doubt fueled by the Bab's previous section of Islam. It's unhelpful.

Sunni Islam stretches across the majority of the Muslim World, and positively directs that each person is responsible directly to God.

Shia Islam accepts that ordained guidance exists and accepts many writings not included in the Koran, the Hadiths.

Why disguise and veil simple truth in hidden words and deceptive verses?

Yes Hadith such as these, the following hath been recorded concerning the merits of Akka, and of the sea surrounding Akka, and of Aynu'l-Baqar (The Spring of the Cow) which is in Akka:

Abdu'l-'Aziz, son of Abdu'-Salam, hath related unto us that the Prophet -- may the blessings of God and His salutations be upon him -- hath said: Akka is a city in Syria to which God hath shown His special mercy."

Ibn-i-Mas'ud -- may God be pleased with him -- hath stated: "The Prophet -- may the blessings of God and His salutations be upon Him -- hath said: 'Of all shores the best is the shore of Askelon, and Akka is, verily, better than Askelon, and the merit of Akka above that of Askelon and all other shores is as the merit of Muhammad above that of all other Prophets. I bring you tidings of a city betwixt two mountains in Syria, in the middle of a meadow, which is called Akka. Verily, he that entereth therein, longing for it and eager to visit it, God will forgive his sins, both of the past and of the future. And he that departeth from it, other than as a pilgrim, God will not bless his departure. In it is a spring called the Spring of the Cow. Whoso drinketh a draught therefrom, God will fill his heart with light, and will protect him from the most great terror on the Day of Resurrection.'"

Anas, son of Malik -- may God be pleased with him -- hath said: "The Apostle of God -- may the blessings of God and His salutations be upon Him -- hath said: 'By the shore of the sea is a city, suspended beneath the Throne, and named Akka. He that dwelleth therein, firm and expecting a reward from God -- exalted be He -- God will write down for him, until the Day of Resurrection, the recompense of such as have been patient, and have stood up, and knelt down, and prostrated themselves, before Him.'"

And He -- may the blessings of God and His salutations be upon Him -- hath said: "I announce unto you a city, on the shores of the sea, white, whose whiteness is pleasing unto God -- exalted be He! It is called Akka. He that hath been bitten by one of its fleas is better, in the estimation of God, than he who hath received a grievous blow in the path of God. And he that raiseth therein the call to prayer, his voice will be lifted up unto Paradise. And he that remaineth therein for seven days in the face of the enemy, God will gather him with Khidr -- peace be upon Him -- and God will protect him from the most great terror on the Day of Resurrection." And He -- may the blessings of God, -- exalted be He -- and His salutations be upon Him -- hath said: "There are kings and princes in Paradise. The poor of Akka are the kings of Paradise and the princes thereof. A month in Akka is better than a thousand years elsewhere."

The Apostle of God -- may the blessings of God and His salutations be upon Him -- is reported to have said: "Blessed the man that hath visited Akka, and blessed he that hath visited the visitor of Akka. Blessed the one that hath drunk from the Spring of the Cow and washed in its waters, for the black-eyed damsels quaff the camphor in Paradise, which hath come from the Spring of the Cow, and from the Spring of Salvan (Siloam), and the Well of Zamzam. Well is it with him that hath drunk from these springs, and washed in their waters, for God hath forbidden the fire of hell to touch him and his body on the Day of Resurrection."

The Prophet -- may the blessings of God and His salutations be upon Him -- is stated to have said: "In Akka are works of supererogation and acts which are beneficial, which God vouchsafed specially unto whomsoever He pleaseth. And he that saith in Akka: 'Glorified be God, and praise be unto God, and there is none other God but God, and most great is God, and there is no power nor strength except in God, the Exalted, the Mighty,' God will write down for him a thousand good deeds, and blot out from him a thousand evil deeds, and will uplift him a thousand grades in Paradise, and will forgive him his transgressions. And whoso saith in Akka: 'I beg forgiveness of God,' God will forgive all his trespasses. And he that remembereth God in Akka at morn and at eventide, in the night-season and at dawn, is better in the sight of God than he who beareth swords, spears and arms in the path of God -- exalted be He!"

The Apostle of God -- may the blessings of God and His salutations be upon Him -- hath also said: "He that looketh upon the sea at eventide, and saith: 'God is Most Great!' at sunset, God will forgive his sins, though they be heaped as piles of sand. And he that counteth forty waves, while repeating: 'God is Most Great!' -- exalted be He -- God will forgive his sins, both past and future."

The Apostle of God -- may the blessings of God and His salutations be upon Him -- hath said: "He that looketh upon the sea a full night is better than he who passeth two whole months betwixt the Rukn and the Maqam. And he that hath been brought up on the shores of the sea is better than he that hath been brought up elsewhere. And he that lieth on the shore is as he that standeth elsewhere."

Verily, the Apostle of God -- may the blessings of God, exalted be He, and His salutations be upon Him -- hath spoken the truth. Baha'u'llah : Epistle to the Son of the Wolf

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

In the third century the Christians destroyed many books about Jesus and his real campaign, and killed those who spoke out against their actions.

Citation please?

Of course, over time they edited and added in to gospels as well, but many such entries can stand out to some investigators. Look at how they messed about with Josephus's brief mention of Jesus.

But we have the apostles, including Paul, who affirm the Gospels and the fundamental Christian messge.

I have no doubt that there have been errors with transcribing. As for additions and deletions, thats a matter for the scholars of course.

That's fine, in which case it's fairly easy to show that such Christians do not actually give a hoot for the real man and his real campaign. Jesus might just as well have not actually existed for Christians like those; a mythical Jesus might be favourable even.
After all, look at Paul's total disinterest in Yeshua the peasant, only Lord Jesus Christ, crucified, died and resurrected, together with that strange cannabistical anecdote were fit for his rants.

Therein lies the problem. You need to remove Pauls books from the NT to support your view. You believe Revelation was a product of hallucinogenic mushrooms. Are there any books you think should make it into the NT?

 

[oldbadger]

Yes Hadith such as these, the following hath been recorded concerning the merits of Akka, and of the sea surrounding Akka, and of Aynu'l-Baqar (The Spring of the Cow) which is in Akka:

Abdu'l-'Aziz, son of Abdu'-Salam, hath related unto us that the Prophet -- may the blessings of God and His salutations be upon him -- hath said: Akka is a city in Syria to which God hath shown His special mercy."

Ibn-i-Mas'ud -- may God be pleased with him -- hath stated: "The Prophet -- may the blessings of God and His salutations be upon Him -- hath said: 'Of all shores the best is the shore of Askelon, and Akka is, verily, better than Askelon, and the merit of Akka above that of Askelon and all other shores is as the merit of Muhammad above that of all other Prophets. I bring you tidings of a city betwixt two mountains in Syria, in the middle of a meadow, which is called Akka. Verily, he that entereth therein, longing for it and eager to visit it, God will forgive his sins, both of the past and of the future. And he that departeth from it, other than as a pilgrim, God will not bless his departure. In it is a spring called the Spring of the Cow. Whoso drinketh a draught therefrom, God will fill his heart with light, and will protect him from the most great terror on the Day of Resurrection.'"

Anas, son of Malik -- may God be pleased with him -- hath said: "The Apostle of God -- may the blessings of God and His salutations be upon Him -- hath said: 'By the shore of the sea is a city, suspended beneath the Throne, and named Akka. He that dwelleth therein, firm and expecting a reward from God -- exalted be He -- God will write down for him, until the Day of Resurrection, the recompense of such as have been patient, and have stood up, and knelt down, and prostrated themselves, before Him.'"

And He -- may the blessings of God and His salutations be upon Him -- hath said: "I announce unto you a city, on the shores of the sea, white, whose whiteness is pleasing unto God -- exalted be He! It is called Akka. He that hath been bitten by one of its fleas is better, in the estimation of God, than he who hath received a grievous blow in the path of God. And he that raiseth therein the call to prayer, his voice will be lifted up unto Paradise. And he that remaineth therein for seven days in the face of the enemy, God will gather him with Khidr -- peace be upon Him -- and God will protect him from the most great terror on the Day of Resurrection." And He -- may the blessings of God, -- exalted be He -- and His salutations be upon Him -- hath said: "There are kings and princes in Paradise. The poor of Akka are the kings of Paradise and the princes thereof. A month in Akka is better than a thousand years elsewhere."

The Apostle of God -- may the blessings of God and His salutations be upon Him -- is reported to have said: "Blessed the man that hath visited Akka, and blessed he that hath visited the visitor of Akka. Blessed the one that hath drunk from the Spring of the Cow and washed in its waters, for the black-eyed damsels quaff the camphor in Paradise, which hath come from the Spring of the Cow, and from the Spring of Salvan (Siloam), and the Well of Zamzam. Well is it with him that hath drunk from these springs, and washed in their waters, for God hath forbidden the fire of hell to touch him and his body on the Day of Resurrection."

The Prophet -- may the blessings of God and His salutations be upon Him -- is stated to have said: "In Akka are works of supererogation and acts which are beneficial, which God vouchsafed specially unto whomsoever He pleaseth. And he that saith in Akka: 'Glorified be God, and praise be unto God, and there is none other God but God, and most great is God, and there is no power nor strength except in God, the Exalted, the Mighty,' God will write down for him a thousand good deeds, and blot out from him a thousand evil deeds, and will uplift him a thousand grades in Paradise, and will forgive him his transgressions. And whoso saith in Akka: 'I beg forgiveness of God,' God will forgive all his trespasses. And he that remembereth God in Akka at morn and at eventide, in the night-season and at dawn, is better in the sight of God than he who beareth swords, spears and arms in the path of God -- exalted be He!"

The Apostle of God -- may the blessings of God and His salutations be upon Him -- hath also said: "He that looketh upon the sea at eventide, and saith: 'God is Most Great!' at sunset, God will forgive his sins, though they be heaped as piles of sand. And he that counteth forty waves, while repeating: 'God is Most Great!' -- exalted be He -- God will forgive his sins, both past and future."

The Apostle of God -- may the blessings of God and His salutations be upon Him -- hath said: "He that looketh upon the sea a full night is better than he who passeth two whole months betwixt the Rukn and the Maqam. And he that hath been brought up on the shores of the sea is better than he that hath been brought up elsewhere. And he that lieth on the shore is as he that standeth elsewhere."

Verily, the Apostle of God -- may the blessings of God, exalted be He, and His salutations be upon Him -- hath spoken the truth. Baha'u'llah : Epistle to the Son of the Wolf

Regards Tony

So....... Bahauallah approved of Shia Islam, but not Sunni Islam.
OK.

 

[oldbadger]

Therein lies the problem. You need to remove Pauls books from the NT to support your view. You believe Revelation was a product of hallucinogenic mushrooms. Are there any books you think should make it into the NT?

No problem.
And I need to remove nothing.
Those very distortions and deceptions are slowly working. and people are waking up to the truth, mostly every day. RF is full of ex Christians, including me.

Of course, you need some of it, because without it your house of cards falls over. That's ok by me, but don't blame me for thinking that in miniature it is quaintly sweet, whilst in magnification it is potentially terrifying control of the World.

Pericopes from Acts, John, Mathew and Luke, placed beside a heavily edited Mark, make some sense when using the balance of probabilities and possibilities. The rest is junk which was improvised to control billions for millenia.

 

[oldbadger]

Citation please?

Ah........ you didn't know. OK.
I'm going to keep this short because with patience you can find many many references to the discarded, lost and burned booked about Jesus, but I will intyroduce you to just one website about the deceptions, and one other reference about how the Council of Nicea met to decide 'What Jesus was to become', 'What Christianity was to believe' and such stuff.

Jesus was without any doubt a Magi, what was then known as (Greek) Tekton, or (E.Aramaic) Nagar or possibly Nagara. His abilities were stunning to the people and thus he was worthy of such title.

But, unlike you and me, Christians needed to believe that he was not a magi, but a 'death to life' miracle worker the Son of God. The following works show how Christians utterly obliterated such reports, whilst building their own suitable God.

You can't beat humans for corruption.
www.smirkingchimp.com/.../playing-with-fire-on-christian-book-burning
Christians have a long tradition of book burning, dating back to the first decades of what some call the "Jesus movement." The Book of Acts in the New Testament
records how Christian believers in Ephesus collected books with offensive content (involving "magic" and "spells") "made a bonfire of them in ...
-------------------------------------------
......and................
Development of the Christian biblical canon
There is no record of any discussion of the biblical canon at the council.[75] The development of the biblical canon took centuries, and was nearly complete (with exceptions known as the Antilegomena, written texts whose authenticity or value is disputed) by the time the Muratorian fragment was written.[76]
In 331, Constantine commissioned fifty Bibles for the Church of Constantinople, but little else is known (in fact, it is not even certain whether his request was for fifty copies of the entire Old and New Testaments, only the New Testament, or merely the Gospels). Some scholars believe that this request provided motivation for canon lists. In Jerome's Prologue to Judith,[77] he claims that the Book of Judith was "found by the Nicene Council to have been counted among the number of the Sacred Scriptures", which some have suggested means the Nicene Council did discuss what documents would number among the sacred scriptures, but more likely simply means the Council used Judith in its deliberations on other matters and so it should be considered canonical.
The main source of the idea that the Bible was created at the Council of Nicea seems to be Voltaire, who popularised a story that the canon was determined by placing all the competing books on an altar during the Council and then keeping the ones that did not fall off. The original source of this "fictitious anecdote" is the Synodicon Vetus,[78] a pseudo-historical account of early Church councils from AD 887:[79]
The canonical and apocryphal books it distinguished in the following manner: in the house of God the books were placed down by the holy altar; then the council asked the Lord in prayer that the inspired works be found on top and--as in fact happened--the spurious on the bottom.[80]

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So....... Bahauallah approved of Shia Islam, but not Sunni Islam.
OK.

At least one of those quotes is from a Sunni source, that is what I found.

Anas ibn Malik - Wikipedia

Amazing that Akka was forerold. That was worthy on mention was it not?

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

When I investigated the Baha'i Faith, I had many conversations face to face with Baha'is over a period of eight months. Beyond that i read books and reflected.There was no internet.

So too for Hinduism, when Siva found me. It was mostly personal insight from experiences not books, not people though. When my first few encounters with any Hindu stuff matched what I already figured, I thought, 'Maybe there's something to this correlation.' People did come later, but Hindus rarely discuss philosophy amongst ourselves, too many conflicts to mention. But if you take a class you do meet a few others on the same or similar wavelengths.

 

[oldbadger]

At least one of those quotes is from a Sunni source, that is what I found.

Anas ibn Malik - Wikipedia

Amazing that Akka was forerold. That was worthy on mention was it not?

Regards Tony

The problem with such prophecies are that they hit and miss. Further to that, it's necessary to recognise the amazing situations which have occured that were never fortold.

So I won't get too excited about things.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The problem with such prophecies are that they hit and miss. Further to that, it's necessary to recognise the amazing situations which have occured that were never fortold.

So I won't get too excited about things.

As it is wise not to. But that is also why Justice is called for in investigation, by Baha'u'llah. He says search and find for ones own self

Now there are many thousands of Prophecies about the last day. If the Bab and Baha'u'llah are the fullfilment, our search will find a connection with either one of them.

I have found the more reliable the Writing that has the Prophecy, the easier it is to find a connection. Thus the Authentic Scriptures of the world is the start, then the more reliable recorded Tradition that is reported to have come from the source.

Now the Mathamatical Probability that you could take100's of Past Prophecy, compare them against the Bab and Baha'u'llah's Revelations, Banishment and the Persecution they faced, and find they have a very reasonable connection, is astronomically in favor that it is not any coincidence.

Whats more, we can then do that with anyone who has claimed to be the Promised One. What a bounty we have a lot of this all available on the net. What a bounty we can have choice of justice in our own search.

Now that is up to each of us, I personally have found and read if 100's of fulfilled Prophecy to date, and that is only limited as I am one person and I am not sure if anyone has started putting them all together, except for this site;

Baha'i: Prophecy Fulfilled Homepage

I know @Investigate Truth has done a fair bit of Islamic research.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

The people of the world will make their own decisions regarding what type of government they want independent of the Baha’is. Tye model they choose is up to them. They may choose not to go with a Bahá’í model but some other form of government which all nations agree upon.

And as we are now we obey the laws of whatever nation we live in.

That doesn't sound like a new world order. Did you mean new world odor? What happened to the government will be on his shoulders prophecy?

So Baha'is will live by the laws of the land where they live. And also be subject to Baha'i laws. And all the other religions will do what? Keep doing what they're doing now? Including the more radical forms of the religions? Islamic nations will use Sharia law? Catholics will still follow the Pope?

But what if a country like the US has a secular government and supports abortion, gay rights and gun laws? Baha'is will obey or peacefully protest?

 

[CG Didymus]

There were plenty of true beliefs (wheat) amidst the false beliefs (Tares).

But that's not the point. Beliefs can be based on wrong interpretations or made up myths, but if believed as true, they can inspire people to do great things.

 

[CG Didymus]

We are talking about two separate but related periods. One is the Islamic dispensation from the 622 AD to 1844 AD which was 1260 (lunar) years and then the period of the Caliphates (false Islam) dominating true Islam 661 AD to 1922 AD. The beast had power for much of the Islamic dispensation.

We know the beast is an empire as with similar beasts in Daniel 7. There is consistency in numbers in Daniel and Revelation referring to time or dates.

This is the first time I've seen 1922 mentioned. So 661 plus 1260 equals 1922 in lunar years or those other kind of years?

 

[CG Didymus]

We are talking about two separate but related periods. One is the Islamic dispensation from the 622 AD to 1844 AD which was 1260 (lunar) years and then the period of the Caliphates (false Islam) dominating true Islam 661 AD to 1922 AD. The beast had power for much of the Islamic dispensation.

We know the beast is an empire as with similar beasts in Daniel 7. There is consistency in numbers in Daniel and Revelation referring to time or dates.

Oh, and false Islam stopped in 1922? So the Islam today is true Islam?

 

[CG Didymus]

The calculation of the 1260 days is 1260 years as the Bible says a Day is one year.

The Islamic year 1260 corresponds to our 1844. Any Islamic date converter will confirm that.

Calendar Converter

Revelation ch12 is speaking about Islam and after which 1260 years a man child will rule. The Bab declared His Mission in 1260 of the Muslim calendar which is our 1844.

Abdul-Baha goes into great depth about the interpretation of Rev ch 12 and it is worth looking at if you have time one day.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 67-72

The 1260 is not added to 622 which brings you to 1882 not 1844.

The 1260 refers to the year 1260 of the Islam calendar which is 1844. It’s not a calculation but a conversion.

That’s why around those years approaching 1260 of Islam there were expectations of a Promised One because to Muslims the Bible was talking about their calendar.

No, the beast starts in 661 and lasts for the 1260 years. Do you agree with Adrian or have a different way of explaining it?

 

[CG Didymus]

Remember that Baha’u’llah came well before the world wars broke out. He appealed to all the leaders and people to unite and warned that there were things that could destroy us.

Strange and astonishing things exist in the earth but they are hidden from the minds and the understanding of men. These things are capable of changing the whole atmosphere of the earth and their contamination would prove lethal.

We humans will go our own way despite good advice even from God Himself. It’s not as if we haven’t been warned a hundred years earlier but we have made our own bed so we have to sleep in it.

I would think most people want peace. Why does God give the war-like minority the scientific knowledge to make bombs and machine guns? Who's going to stop them? The Baha'is? Anti-war protesters? I did that in the 60' and got thrown in jail.

 

[CG Didymus]

It is up to people to choose the path they take in life. Its has become a very worn out argument to blame our shortcomings on God.

Better question, why has not man yet learned the obvious lessons?

Regards Tony

Who's in control? Who planned all of this? Who already knows the outcome? Or, do you think God doesn't know and is waiting to see what we will do?

 

[CG Didymus]

Translations can be an issue. It shows we must be Just in our search and not too quick to judge on single word meanings, but look at it as a whole.

Regards Tony

Yes, but what do you think about the New Testament being written by fallible people. People that depended on their memory or the memory of others to tell us what Jesus said and did.