How are these Great Beings explained?

[CG Didymus]

This idea is absurd.
It's like a colony of termites on a mound in a wilderness reckoning that God put everything in place, just for them.

What's absurd is that those termites think their God is the real one. Everyone knows the termites on the mound on the other side of the valley have the true teachings from the true God.

 

[CG Didymus]

666 is the number of years passed from Birth of Christ. 661AD does not mean 661 after birth of Christ. Christian Calender is off by 5 years. Many Christians know that too. Ask them please.

And how does anyone know when Jesus was born? And why would the number of the beast be the number of years after Jesus was born? You guys have a great number in 1260. Why mess up the little credibility you gained with that to try and force a date out of 666?

 

[CG Didymus]

The purpose of teaching is to spiritually revive people so numbers have never been the real goal.

Mass teaching was geared towards quantity not quality.

 

[CG Didymus]

How so? His first marriage was before the Bab declared in 1835 perfectly legal as a Muslim,

His second marriage was in 1849 so He only had two wives the as a Babi again according to thr legal law of the land and the Babi law.

He took His third wife not as a Babi in Baghdad but as a new Manifestation in about 1862 decades before His Most Holy Book was revealed. A new Manifestation is not bound by the laws of the previous Dispensation. “He doe the whatsoever He willeth”.

By the time Baha’u’llah married His 3rd wife He had already become a new Manifestation and He didn’t reveal His Book of Laws until decades later.

How many wives are Baha'is allowed? It better be three or else that means he didn't know what his own law was going to be.

 

[oldbadger]

Many of the Bab's laws were never enacted nor enforced and never will be. The overwhelming purpose of the Bab's revelation was to enable His followers to recognise 'Him whom God shall make manifest' which they did overwhelmingly.

'Many of'.......... the perfect installation of a Cherry-Picking aperture.
But yoour prophet never changed the Bab's law on marriage...... only supported it.

To prove your point you need to make an argument that the Bab's law had came into effect, and Baha'u'llah as a Babi broke it. Of course you can prove no such thing.

The Bab didn't write laws as Bills, he intended his followers to follow them.
You don't get to make the rules of evidence here, What the Bab ordered and what his followers did are enough evidence. No further proof required for detached observers, I reckon.

 

[Sen McGlinn]

...
And so when he took a third wife he broke babi law.

You are assuming, I think, that the first two wives were still alive (and not divorced) at the time of the third marriage, to Gawhar. The "received wisdom" is that this was during his time in Baghdad, but (1) they had no children then, and (2) when Baha'u'llah was exiled from Baghdad to Istanbul, his "third wife" did not accompany him, remaining instead with her brother. They were later rounded up by the authorities and sent to exile in Mosul. She went to Akka in 1870, seven years after Baha'u'llah's exile from Baghdad. Their one daughter is said to have been born in Akka.

Now as to whether his first or second wife had died or been divorced by 1870 :

Baha'u'llah's last child with his second wife, Fatimeh, was Badi'u'lláh, born in 1867 when Fatimeh was 39 years old. By that time, Abdu'l-Baha had emerged as Baha'u'llah's favourite and pre-eminent disciple. Fatimeh is said to have been very jealous of Abdu'l-Baha ( son of Assiyeh). I see two possibilities: (1) Baha'u'llah and Fatimeh still had marital relations in 1870, despite her jealousy of Abdu'l-Baha, but she had no more children because of her age, or (2) Baha'u'llah and Fatimeh no longer had marital relations, because of age or because her opposition to his favourite son was intolerable. In the latter case, was there a formal divorce? Would we know if there was? We have no documentary or eyewitness account of the marriage, so it is quite possible there was a divorce, which no-one mentioned.

There is also a letter by Abdu'l-Baha, quoted in the Diary of Habíb Mu’ayyad and translated by Ahang Rabbani. The pdf was online, but has apparently been moved or removed. On page 443 it reads

The multiple marriages of Bahá’u’lláh occurred prior to the revelation of the Kitáb-i Aqdas. At the time of Abraham, Moses, David and Solomon, multiplicity of wives was permitted. Therefore, in consideration of the past Dispensation and in view of many other factors, Bahá’u’lláh, prior to the revelation of the Kitáb-i Aqdas, acquired two wives. Jacob had four, Abraham had several and David had ninety-nine wives. Bahá’u’lláh, however, in accordance with the laws of the previous Dispensation, acquired two wives and, when one passed away, another marriage occurred. However, after the revelation of the Kitáb-i Aqdas, this matter was concluded, and no other marriages took place. And the multiplicity of His marriages was in accord with certain wisdom. But everyone must now turn to the Kitáb-i Aqdas and do as bidden therein.

The problem is, Khadijeh Bagum died on 15 September 1882, after the revelation of the Kitab-e Aqdas. Fatimeh was still alive when Baha'u'llah died. But Abdu'l-Baha says Baha'u'llah's third marriage took place after the death of one of his first two wives.

If indeed the marriage took place in Palestine after the death of Khadijeh Bagum, and if Gawhar was pregnant or had her daughter with her when she arrived in Palestine, (two ifs), then it would appear that she had a child and no husband, for which there are three explanations (1) she was a widow, as David Hofman says (but I do not think he is reliable in such matters), (2) she slipped or (3) she was raped. I think the last of these is most likely, as the group who were sent to Mosul were subject to severe abuse, and they had no protectors there.

There's a lot of uncertainty here, but the least improbable scenario is that Baha'u'llah married Gawhar when she was -- and because she was -- an unmarried mother.

 

[CG Didymus]

See you again in a couple of days, Tony.

He said for the "sake" of unity? This thread is clear proof that Baha'is have no idea how to bring unity between themselves and people that have different beliefs. It will always come down to their belief that they have the infallible truth in the writings of their prophet. So none of the rest of us can never, ever be right.

 

[oldbadger]

....
...... The contributions of Baha'i to world peace is negligible at best......

A long time ago (before superfast IT interrogation) Bahai would boast that Bahai Representatives advised the United Nations! In fact Bahai reps sit in the observer's section of the UN Human Rights commission, observers only and banned from comment.

As time has passed, and such claims have been exposed, the boasts have died away, now replaced with what you read here in these pages.

 

[CG Didymus]

Many of the Bab's laws were never enacted nor enforced and never will be. The overwhelming purpose of the Bab's revelation was to enable His followers to recognise 'Him whom God shall make manifest' which they did overwhelmingly.

To prove your point you need to make an argument that the Bab's law had came into effect, and Baha'u'llah as a Babi broke it. Of course you can prove no such thing.

Never enacted nor enforced? Why did God have him even mention them?

 

[oldbadger]

Yes, up and down cycles. Sometimes it gets better. Sometime it gets worse. Not progressive at all. But this is essentially a dispute between two very differing paradigms.

Indeed. The next wandering meteorite could change all. Let's just hope it is not a wandering asteroid or our descendents will really be on a down cycle.

 

[oldbadger]

To now refute this, is not possible.

Surely, that's not for you to judge.....
Or do you think that you are a judge?

 

[oldbadger]

...
......... About the same as a politician saying, 'I'm sure of it'. Of course some politicians have blind unfazed followers as well. All in the same ilk of 'I'm right and you're wrong.'

Who was that Brit politico who promised to produce the Sword of Damocleys, later being convicted of POTCJ (fibbing) and going to prison for a couple of years?

 

[CG Didymus]

Yet Baha'u'llah's language was much the same as Christ, and Christianity has become the largest, most widespread religion on earth. I don't think the Christians would be too happy for you to tell me they are following someone with a psychological disorder.

What do you call a religion that believes their founder is God and rose from the dead? And what do you call people that believe such things?

 

[oldbadger]

So do I, but mine comes with mutual respect, without the need to make my own POV absolutely central to the cause. But I must say you lasted longer than usual this time.

Yes, none of the non-bahais here have regularly and often posted on behalf of their particular beliefs. We've mentioned them, but not pushed them.
We need more Jews, Christians, Sikhs and Muslims here really, but it does not look as if they want to have much to do with the thread, which is a pity.

One day I am going to find out something about the Sikh religion, since one of the biggest Sikh Temples in Europe is just 30 miles up the road, and I couldn't write a single sentence about it.

 

[oldbadger]

You are assuming, I think, that the first two wives were still alive (and not divorced) at the time of the third marriage, to Gawhar. The "received wisdom" is that this was during his time in Baghdad, but (1) they had no children then, and (2) when Baha'u'llah was exiled from Baghdad to Istanbul, his "third wife" did not accompany him, remaining instead with her brother. They were later rounded up by the authorities and sent to exile in Mosul. She went to Akka in 1870, seven years after Baha'u'llah's exile from Baghdad. Their one daughter is said to have been born in Akka.

Now as to whether his first or second wife had died or been divorced by 1870 :

Baha'u'llah's last child with his second wife, Fatimeh, was Badi'u'lláh, born in 1867 when Fatimeh was 39 years old. By that time, Abdu'l-Baha had emerged as Baha'u'llah's favourite and pre-eminent disciple. Fatimeh is said to have been very jealous of Abdu'l-Baha ( son of Assiyeh). I see two possibilities: (1) Baha'u'llah and Fatimeh still had marital relations in 1870, despite her jealousy of Abdu'l-Baha, but she had no more children because of her age, or (2) Baha'u'llah and Fatimeh no longer had marital relations, because of age or because her opposition to his favourite son was intolerable. In the latter case, was there a formal divorce? Would we know if there was? We have no documentary or eyewitness account of the marriage, so it is quite possible there was a divorce, which no-one mentioned.

There is also a letter by Abdu'l-Baha, quoted in the Diary of Habíb Mu’ayyad and translated by Ahang Rabbani. The pdf was online, but has apparently been moved or removed. On page 443 it reads



The problem is, Khadijeh Bagum died on 15 September 1882, after the revelation of the Kitab-e Aqdas. Fatimeh was still alive when Baha'u'llah died. But Abdu'l-Baha says Baha'u'llah's third marriage took place after the death of one of his first two wives.

If indeed the marriage took place in Palestine after the death of Khadijeh Bagum, and if Gawhar was pregnant or had her daughter with her when she arrived in Palestine, (two ifs), then it would appear that she had a child and no husband, for which there are three explanations (1) she was a widow, as David Hofman says (but I do not think he is reliable in such matters), (2) she slipped or (3) she was raped. I think the last of these is most likely, as the group who were sent to Mosul were subject to severe abuse, and they had no protectors there.

There's a lot of uncertainty here, but the least improbable scenario is that Baha'u'llah married Gawhar when she was -- and because she was -- an unmarried mother.

I need to read all that with care later today.
Have you mentioned Bahauallah's fourth wife there? I'm guessing that Bahauallah had been widowered once or possibly twice before this fourth wedding.

But it doesn't look good, Sen.......... this whole area of questioning.... God's Ordained Prophet, who knows the future, can prophesy great rises and falls, knows all without education...... the all knowing and infallible, did not know that only one wife is acceptable for Bahais.

That alone could be enough to help observers form a poor opinion of Bahai. I think that you know that.

 

[oldbadger]

He said for the "sake" of unity? This thread is clear proof that Baha'is have no idea how to bring unity between themselves and people that have different beliefs. It will always come down to their belief that they have the infallible truth in the writings of their prophet. So none of the rest of us can never, ever be right.

Well then....... come over to the 'Studd Hill Full Moon Frolickers'. Nothing we ever do is right, in fact most things we do are out-and-out naughty.
But it's........ fun.
How old are you?
Mrs Wainwright needs a moonlight dancing partner. If you're between 75 and 90 then it's your lucky day, mate. She's gorgeous!

 

[oldbadger]

Never enacted nor enforced? Why did God have him even mention them?

Up until the Bab and his quite extreme ideas and laws came into view here, I thought that Christians held the torch for cherry-picking, but ....... the ducking, diving and swerving over all this is now indicative of .............. waffle.

 

[oldbadger]

What do you call a religion that believes their founder is God and rose from the dead? And what do you call people that believe such things?

You were replying to @adrian009 post:

adrian009 said: ↑
............................ I don't think the Christians would be too happy for you to tell me they are following someone with a psychological disorder.

There was nothing wrong with Yeshua, who joined with Jochananan to confess and redeem poor people outside of the Temple's greed and corruption, and who carried on for a time after Jochanan's arrest.

The deceiver and possible pyscho was Paul. Many here believe that.

 

[Dawnofhope]

'Many of'.......... the perfect installation of a Cherry-Picking aperture.

The Bab “made the acceptance” of the Bayan “dependent on the good pleasure” of the One Who would follow Him — Baha’u’llah, the founder of the Baha’i Faith.

The Báb's Bayan

The Bab didn't write laws as Bills, he intended his followers to follow them.

That's correct, and that's why most Babis eventualy recognised Baha'u'llah. The Kitab-i-Aqdas is the most important sacred text for Baha'is, not the Bayan.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Never enacted nor enforced? Why did God have him even mention them?

There was less than 13 years between the Bab's martyrdom and the declaration of Baha'u'llah as the Manifestation of God for this day. The purpose of the Bab's revealtion was to prepare His followers to recognise 'Him whom God shall make manifest' Baha'u'llah.

Enactment and enforcement of Baha'i laws is based on Baha'u'llah's revelation. This has been progressive in accordance with the capacity of the people. So the move from polygamy for Baha'is in Islamic culture to monogamy worldwide was gradual, not instant.