How are these Great Beings explained?

[CG Didymus]

I will respond for you. The Bahais will claim the hatred is from a relative few people who are decidedly anti-Bahai, and these one or two people make a lot of noise. That will be your response, my prophecy. Second option is to ignore, and not enter the discussion, because there are rules against discussing with anti-Bahai folk. But you already probably guessed that.

My personal take? I don't know. Probably exaggeration on all sides.

I knew some of the people in question in the'70's when I lived in Southern California. One of them was Steven Scroll who published a "Baha'i" magazine called "Dialogue". In one issue an article was too critical of the way things were being down and proposed how things could be done better. He rocked the boat and they pushed him overboard, so to speak. So there is control from the top down. All in the name of "unity". Of course there's unity in belief when all opposition are kicked out.

Now for us, they love us, because they want to get us to join.

 

[Vinayaka]

Now for us, they love us, because they want to get us to join.

I don't think there is much worry of that. Still, if it works for a person, sure, no problem. I just think people could save a lot of time by exploring things really well beforehand. Sort of like taking a university course before finding you actually don't like that job. I had student teachers like that ... wasted 4 years of their lives, not a total waste sure, but.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Here's a few excerpts from an article, "Enemies Within: Conflict and Control in the Baha'i Community" The Baha’i Faith’s "publicity campaigns have left the impression, even among detractors, that its beliefs are socially progressive and without a strong doctrinal core... However, Baha’i, like other religions in the Abrahamic tradition, is based on a set of texts that are believed to be divinely revealed. Liberal principles are contained in these scriptures, but so are authoritarian elements. Baha’is, then, can be as fundamentalist as the adherents of any other Western religion."

This article was published on a website titled "information about Cults and psychological manipulation."

The link you have provided refers to an an ex-Baha'i who I knew personally for over 10 years including the period she had her membership removed. We were in the same study group together.

The article appears to me to be unbalanced and somewhat extreme.

"The Baha’i Faith views the establishment of world unity as its primary mission... This has created anxiety about the articulation of dissent which, in turn, has resulted in severe limits imposed on individual free expression concerning Baha’i beliefs... Hence, the Baha’i Faith places adherents in a psychological bind by simultaneously upholding liberal ideals, which attract intelligent and creative people, while at the same time exerting pressure towards obedience and conformity. This conformity is enforced by the attitudes of fellow adherents, intimidation by Baha’i officials, and sanctions, including excommunication and shunning, limitation of participation in community affairs, and most recently, simply dropping nonconformists from the membership rolls."

The reality is membership of the Baha'i faith is voluntary. The criteria for membership is straightforward. It requires a belief in Baha'u'llah as God's messenger for this day and acceptance of the administrative order.

Membership in the Baha'i Faith is open to all of humanity. In accordance with the principle of freedom of spiritual choice, the Baha'i Faith holds that an individual should be free to accept or reject the system of belief brought by Baha'u'llah. No one is compelled to become a Baha'i, nor is anyone prohibited from withdrawing from the Faith if he or she cannot continue to accept the Baha'i teachings. In the latter case Baha'is treat the person with the courtesy, amity and respect enjoined in the Baha'i writings as applicable to Baha'i relationships with others.
Universal House of Justice

I have never seen or experienced threats by Baha'i officials. In New Zealand over the 25+ years I have been a Baha'i I recall only one incident where a member had her membership removed (one of the people mentioned in your article) and one episode of Covenant breaking.

Talking about Baha'i that have dropped out or that have become inactive: "They believe they are joining a broad-minded and tolerant religion and become actively involved in its promotion, only to run up against authoritarian expectations that they find insupportable."

Like any organisation there are rules and laws. If I call myself a Baha'i, but don't really believe in the fundamental teachings of my faith, and publicly attack the very Central figures and administrative order I claim allegiance to, what am I about?

One of the disillusioned: "For Baha'is of my generation, we became believers during the exciting and turbulent Vietnam War years because we saw that Baha'u'llah offers humanity the clearest direction for our inner spiritual growth and our work for saving the planet. Most of my Baha'i friends of my youth have left the Faith. Not because they lost faith in Baha'u'llah or the teachings, but because they were not allowed to express their ideals and activism as Baha'is. And today, over and over again, I hear from friends who are quietly leaving the Faith to pursue their ideals in the peace movement, in the women's movement, in the field of ecology, in music and dance, in religious discipline, because they are not allowed to express their commitment to social change, artistic expression, or a mystical path within a Baha'i context."

There is actually no reason that Baha'is can not work towards progressing all the noble ideals you have mentioned and it would be encouraged. However Baha'is can not get involved in politics for a number of reasons. Its probably worth noting that the culture of the Baha'i faith has changed over the last 40 years and there is much more emphasis on the movements you describe.

Participation in the Discourses of Society | What Bahá’ís Do

Social Action | What Bahá’ís Do

It's a long article, but that's enough stuff. Key words: "Authoritarian" "Fundamentalist" "Obedience" "Conformity" "Intimidation" "Excommunication" and a very telling one... "Inactive". The article made the claim that a large percentage of "Enrolled" Baha'is are no where to be found. They've vanished. So, at some point, the Baha'is will have to prove to me their own house is in order.

Fair enough. We need to prove we have our house in order. I reject the keywords you mention as being a significant part of Baha'i culture but am happy to consider all examples on a case by case basis.

 

[CG Didymus]

It is true that many Christians say Christ is the only way to God, but that is not what Christ taught.

It is important to separate Christian belief from the Teachings of Christ.

Allegedly, Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Those misguided Christians of course take it too literal. Fools.

Obviously, he meant, "Right now, in this dispensation, I'm all you got going. Follow me and I'll lead you to God. Those old traditions? Forget them, get with the program, or you can go to hell... Oops, did I say that? Please you guys taking notes strike that... I mean... If you don't believe in me you'll be doomed to hell." He asks his Press Secretary, "Was that better?" "Yeah, next time follow the script. Don't go ad-libing."

Hey, on a personal note, How's your guitar playing doing?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Christ taught he was the only way to god.

Please prove to me that Christ taught He was the only way to God.

Regardless the sacrifice, sacrifical offerings whether animal or as jesus have always been a way for people to be with god by puting their sins on another.

There is only one sacrificial offering in scripture christianity.

Sacrificial offerings (animals) is Judaism. This system of sacrifices has been used as a metaphor to understand our relationship to God, Christ, and to others. The underlying principles however are not unique to Christianity.

Is your interpretation from a bahai perspective?

It is based on my understanding of what Jesus taught as recorded in the gospels.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Allegedly, Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Those misguided Christians of course take it too literal. Fools.

Thank you for sharing John 14:6. Of course this is what Christ said, it is the one quote that Christians have throw at me until I have corns on my ears, so I decided to start a thread examining it!

The Exclusivity of Christianity: Myth or Reality

You already know that of course as you have posted there.

Obviously, he meant, "Right now, in this dispensation, I'm all you got going. Follow me and I'll lead you to God. Those old traditions? Forget them, get with the program, or you can go to hell... Oops, did I say that? Please you guys taking notes strike that... I mean... If you don't believe in me you'll be doomed to hell." He asks his Press Secretary, "Was that better?" "Yeah, next time follow the script. Don't go ad-libing."

You really have a great skill with satire that brings a smile to my face every time.

He said this in the week leading up to His crucifixion, he had just told His disciples that He was going to martyred, and He was comforting them reminding them that He was the Promised One the their Jewish scripture (The disciples were all Jews), and so was telling them it was all going to be fine.

Hey, on a personal note, How's your guitar playing doing?

It was going great until I started posting on RF a few months ago. I had watched searching for sugarman on netflixs as recommended by one of my medical students. It really inspired me as I dusted off all my old songs I'd written years ago.

Have you seen the movie?

 

[CG Didymus]

This article was published on a website titled "information about Cults and psychological manipulation."

The link you have provided refers to an an ex-Baha'i who I knew personally for over 10 years including the period she had her membership removed. We were in the same study group together.

The article appears to me to be unbalanced and somewhat extreme.



The reality is membership of the Baha'i faith is voluntary. The criteria for membership is straightforward. It requires a belief in Baha'u'llah as God's messenger for this day and acceptance of the administrative order.

Membership in the Baha'i Faith is open to all of humanity. In accordance with the principle of freedom of spiritual choice, the Baha'i Faith holds that an individual should be free to accept or reject the system of belief brought by Baha'u'llah. No one is compelled to become a Baha'i, nor is anyone prohibited from withdrawing from the Faith if he or she cannot continue to accept the Baha'i teachings. In the latter case Baha'is treat the person with the courtesy, amity and respect enjoined in the Baha'i writings as applicable to Baha'i relationships with others.
Universal House of Justice

I have never seen or experienced threats by Baha'i officials. In New Zealand over the 25+ years I have been a Baha'i I recall only one incident where a member had her membership removed (one of the people mentioned in your article) and one episode of Covenant breaking.



Like any organisation there are rules and laws. If I call myself a Baha'i, but don't really believe in the fundamental teachings of my faith, and publicly attack the very Central figures and administrative order I claim allegiance to, what am I about?



There is actually no reason that Baha'is can not work towards progressing all the noble ideals you have mentioned and it would be encouraged. However Baha'is can not get involved in politics for a number of reasons. Its probably worth noting that the culture of the Baha'i faith has changed over the last 40 years and there is much more emphasis on the movements you describe.

Participation in the Discourses of Society | What Bahá’ís Do

Social Action | What Bahá’ís Do



Fair enough. We need to prove we have our house in order. I reject the keywords you mention as being a significant part of Baha'i culture but am happy to consider all examples on a case by case basis.

I'm glad to hear that there has been changes. The people that had problems were David Langness, Steven Scroll, Juan R.I. Cole.
I met Steven and I think I heard the other two speak at Baha'i meeting before. The article: "A Modest Proposal" is at the heart of the problem. It was published in "Dialogue", a magazine edited by Steven Scroll. Here's a link to a letter from Steven to UHofJ.

Thanks for all your time. I'm going to jam on the guitar a little bit now. See you.

 

[CG Didymus]

It was going great until I started posting on RF a few months ago. I had watched searching for sugarman on netflixs as recommended by one of my medical students. It really inspired me as I dusted off all my old songs I'd written years ago.

Have you seen the movie?

Not yet. I'll take a look. I'll check back with the thread later.

 

[Dawnofhope]

But just whom do you guys believe? Each Christian denomination will say that same thing ..." important to separate " or "but that is not what Christ taught'

Fortunately there is this book called the Holy Bible. Baha'is are in agreement with Christians about the relative authenticity and authority of their sacred scripture. However Christians have a wide array of understands and interpretations. These differences of opinions have even contributed to major wars. That being said we can still refer to scripture.

So this is just according to you.

Many Christians believe this and many don't. I base my interpretation on biblical scripture. Of course I'm a Baha'i so some bias there for sure.

I'm very happy to have come from a Christian background.

 

[loverofhumanity]

We have discussed Baha'u'llah before.

That "religious "unity" only includes the religions of Abraham and few other major religions. Most religions, including the Pagan, are excluded.

That "equal status of women" does not actually mean equal. They still want women in the home role. They want the man in charge. And they do not allow women to hold the highest Baha'i' status in their religious hierarchy. They come out of Abrahamic patriarchy.

*

The Writings I've read do back up universal human rights and equality between men and women,

The Baha'i Faith says the mother is the first educator of the child which is true. But equal rights doesn't not mean equal functions for a man cannot have a baby so it's ridiculous to just say that Baha'is don't support equality when even nature has defined different functions for men and women physiologically, something we cannot alter.

It is not only the Abrahamic religions. It includes the Dhammic religions as well as they both contain scriptures concerning this Revelation.

We accept any truths which are for the common good. The reason paganism is not accepted as a religion is it has no Manifestation and was not revealed by God but that doesnt mean that there aren't things in it which we believe too.

 

[Vinayaka]

I base my interpretation on biblical scripture.

Isn't that what everyone says though? Just who is going to say, "I base my interpretation on conjecture."

 

[Dawnofhope]

Isn't that what everyone says though? Just who is going to say, "I base my interpretation on conjecture."

lol. That is true. However there is an agreed sacred scripture. That becomes the shared framework for further discussion and exploration. If we have a worldview that is based on scripture then it needs to be internally consistent. For example an exclusive Christian God that sends people to hell because they are not Christians, even when they have never had the opportunity to hear about it, let alone explore it, is inconsistent with a Loving and Just God. It also contradicts the observation that there are many outstanding people of faith in all the major religions, Hinduism included.

A Christian who argues for an exclusive salvation based on acceptance of Christ appears to be on shaky ground from both a biblical perspective and the experience we have living in a multicultural world.

 

[Ingledsva]

The Writings I've read do back up universal human rights and equality between men and women,

The Baha'i Faith says the mother is the first educator of the child which is true. But equal rights doesn't not mean equal functions for a man cannot have a baby so it's ridiculous to just say that Baha'is don't support equality when even nature has defined different functions for men and women physiologically, something we cannot alter.

There is no real equality when you tout the old patriarchal ideas, and want women to be baby machines, with men in charge of the women, and everything else.

Nature says it takes two in normal human reproduction. The fact that a women can produce the end product, - in no way condemns her to only that function. That is patriarchal crap.

It is not only the Abrahamic religions. It includes the Dhammic religions as well as they both contain scriptures concerning this Revelation.

We accept any truths which are for the common good. The reason paganism is not accepted as a religion is it has no Manifestation and was not revealed by God but that doesnt mean that there aren't things in it which we believe too.

Meaning ONLY the religions that match your Abrahamic patriarchal religious ideas. And that puts the lie to Baha'i rhetoric. Like all patriarchal religions you want every person to follow YOUR God, and YOUR religious ideas.

Pagan religions weren't revealed by God???? How exactly do you prove YOUR religion was revealed by God? You can't!

*

 

[Vinayaka]

lol. That is true. However there is an agreed sacred scripture. That becomes the shared framework for further discussion and exploration. If we have a worldview that is based on scripture then it needs to be internally consistent. For example an exclusive Christian God that sends people to hell because they are not Christians, even when they have never had the opportunity to hear about it, let alone explore it, is inconsistent with a Loving and Just God. It also contradicts the observation that there are many outstanding people of faith in all the major religions, Hinduism included.

A Christian who argues for an exclusive salvation based on acceptance of Christ appears to be on shaky ground from both a biblical perspective and the experience we have living in a multicultural world.

I don't know enough about it to say much. I just watch the factions argue. The pot and the kettle are charmingly antagonistic. My neighbour came over one day and yelled at me (a Hindu, and she knew it) about the Pope being the anti-Christ. Another colleague befriended my group of colleagues, and we placed bets on how long it would take him to bring up his Christianity. Another childhood acquaintance alternated between the bible and the needle (heroin). Another pastor's daughter really knew her way around the soldiers and young men looking for a good time, if you get my drift. Just not on Sunday mornings. My spouse (before she was a spouse) went to a Christmas mass with some, when we knew who was sleeping with who. Mostly it was just a big act, lots of winking, pretending nobody knew, and all that.

So it's like a good situation comedy to me.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I don't know enough about it to say much. I just watch the factions argue. The pot and the kettle are charmingly antagonistic. My neighbour came over one day and yelled at me (a Hindu, and she knew it) about the Pope being the anti-Christ. Another colleague befriended my group of colleagues, and we placed bets on how long it would take him to bring up his Christianity. Another childhood acquaintance alternated between the bible and the needle (heroin). Another pastor's daughter really knew her way around the soldiers and young men looking for a good time, if you get my drift. Just not on Sunday mornings. My spouse (before she was a spouse) went to a Christmas mass with some, when we knew who was sleeping with who. Mostly it was just a big act, lots of winking, pretending nobody knew, and all that.

So it's like a good situation comedy to me.

I do volunteer work at a Christian Medical Centre. There have been all manner of dramas in the 5 + years I have been there. Initially they wanted to kick me about because I was a Baha'i despite telling them I was a Baha'i to begin with and them agreeing to have me there. However they have been too busy with infighting and dealing with problems of a moral nature with their fellow Christian to pay too much attention to me. We are on our 4th practice manager and 3rd receptionist since I started. There is a famous verse where Jesus criticises the Pharisees (a Jewish sect) for being like a cup, clean on the outside and dirty on the inside. The conditions of the many Christians including their leaders are the same.

 

[Vinayaka]

I do volunteer work at a Christian Medical Centre. There have been all manner of dramas in the 5 + years I have been there. Initially they wanted to kick me about because I was a Baha'i despite telling them I was a Baha'i to begin with and them agreeing to have me there. However they have been too busy with infighting and dealing with problems of a moral nature with their fellow Christian to pay too much attention to me. We are on our 4th practice manager and 3rd receptionist since I started. There is a famous verse where Jesus criticises the Pharisees (a Jewish sect) for being like a cup, clean on the outside and dirty on the inside. The conditions of the many Christians including their leaders are the same.

Dad left at age 9 or so, and I heard the story a few times. Rainy, rainy day, in the 20s. Pastor, Reverend whatever talked all about loving they neighbour, being kind and all that. When they got out, he and his sisters weren't offered rides home, but had to sludge their way through the mud, while cars, and carriages went by. He never returned. Smart man.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Dad left at age 9 or so, and I heard the story a few times. Rainy, rainy day, in the 20s. Pastor, Reverend whatever talked all about loving they neighbour, being kind and all that. When they got out, he and his sisters weren't offered rides home, but had to sludge their way through the mud, while cars, and carriages went by. He never returned. Smart man.

My wife's mother (Japanese) became a Christian in Japan after the preaching of Billy Graham. She attended a Christian school where she met her husband, an Englishmen and later moved to New Zealand. The Methodist Church was an important focus for community life when she was bringing up children but I think it became less important to her as she grew older and she returned to Buddhism.

Probably the majority of people who leave Christianity simply don't see it being relevant in their life anymore and stop believing. Some have traumatic experiences with other Christians and I certainly had a few when I was a Christian. I suspect with secularism there will be a similar movement away from religion in other cultures too as religion no longer seems relevant or doesn't meet peoples needs. How has secularism impacted on Hinduism in India?

 

[Vinayaka]

How has secularism impacted on Hinduism in India?

My opinion is that secularism has been a disaster for India. We now have an entire version of Hinduism that is weak in tradition, called liberal Hinduism. It's nothing more than a cultural center, God is not there much. In my city people flock to the traditional temple for God, but will go to a liberal Hindu temple to eat.

But liberal Christianity is like that too. Not much more than a social hall, gathering place.

But that's just me. Whatever works. I like my energy dancing.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I'm scratching my head now. Remember, though, I don't see scripture as metaphorical. If scripture is right, I do believe Jesus is in the Eucharist. I do believe there was such things as sacrificial offerings (that still happen today from people I speak with. Who actually sacrifice animals for sin absolving.)

Please prove to me that Christ taught He was the only way to God.

The most famous is "I am the way, truth, and the light. The only way to the father is through me."

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

There is too many scriptures to quote, actually. According to jesus, to know god is to come through him. That's how people are saved is by jesus sacrifice. I don't see it as a metaphor. If it is true, to me, it would be literal. I find it odd any christian would think their salvation is symbolic.

Sacrificial offerings (animals) is Judaism. This system of sacrifices has been used as a metaphor to understand our relationship to God, Christ, and to others. The underlying principles however are not unique to Christianity.

It isn't a metaphor. That's like saying a Christian's salvation is a metaphor. Is salvation a metaphor to you?

It is based on my understanding of what Jesus taught as recorded in the gospels.

Based on your experience, was your experienced based on a metaphor or something that actually happened to you as a christian?

I go off my experience. If I went off my knowledge, well, I disagree with a lot of what scripture says but it doesn't mean it's a metaphor just means to me, it's false. To many christians it is not. Since christians make up the body of christ, they should have some authority to speak about christ. If the apostles can, why can't christians?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Thank you for sharing John 14:6. Of course this is what Christ said, it is the one quote that Christians have throw at me until I have corns on my ears, so I decided to start a thread examining it!

The Exclusivity of Christianity: Myth or Reality

You already know that of course as you have posted there.



You really have a great skill with satire that brings a smile to my face every time.

He said this in the week leading up to His crucifixion, he had just told His disciples that He was going to martyred, and He was comforting them reminding them that He was the Promised One the their Jewish scripture (The disciples were all Jews), and so was telling them it was all going to be fine.



It was going great until I started posting on RF a few months ago. I had watched searching for sugarman on netflixs as recommended by one of my medical students. It really inspired me as I dusted off all my old songs I'd written years ago.

Have you seen the movie?

Think about it, though. Unless your salvation is metaphorical, I'm kinda confused.

If jesus actually existed as a historical figure and the Romans existed and did crucify him, I'd assume that the Jews existed to accuse him and the Romans actually did the killing. I don't see any reason to doubt this historical nature of this if it is true.

Since jesus said he was the only way to god and god continuously said that jesus is their salvation in one way or another, I would also assume that unlike metaphors, he actually said he takes the sins upon himself as people have died or crucified their sins in christ so they can live.

In other words, jesus is flesh. Flesh is sin (literal because we do sin, of course). Jesus teachings teach christians about god and the nature of sin. He also teaches that through himself-his flesh-that people are crucified in/in him, they die to their flesh-which people actually do-they are saved.

They aren't saved by the apostles, none of the jews, the pharisee, no one else but jesus.

So, when jesus died the Church/body of believers formed and spread Christ's teachings (the Father's Words) to neighboring lands in Acts.

His resurrection was a confirmation that when people die in their sins, live like christ, they will be in union with god.

These things people actually do. They actually repent to die to their sins and live a new life. It isn't metaphorical. Their association with jesus' death and his words isn't metaphorical. They literally do believe that jesus, through his flesh, lead the way for them to live his teachings by faith so they can be resurrected. Jesus taught this in light during the Lesurath event. The faith brought the man alive. When people put faith in jesus because his words is of his father, they will be resurrected. They can't be resurrected without sacrifice.

In the OT, people actually sacrifice lambs so that their sins will die/blood of the lamb/life of the lamb dies so they are in union with god. Sacrifice like this is done today. It's all literal.

If it was metaphorical, why would we need to do anything to be saved. Why would scripture say god judges by people's works if his plan was metaphorical?

Catholicism is a pretty literal faith because, unlike protestant christianity where symbolism is hightened, in Catholicism, the literal sacraments and experience is emphasised. When you are baptized, you are literally baptized not metaphorically. Repentence (or confessing one's sins) is actually confession. When people take bread and wine (the sacrificial meal) they do so literally because it literally (if you look at the people in Mass) brings more than one person together and this, in scripture, makes jesus present in his body which, in Catholicism, is seen through jesus last meal.

The resurrection after taking the Eucharist is a confirmation of the promised to be with god forever.

I don't see how a relationship with christ can be metaphorical. Sacrifice plays a huge part in christianity. To me, it is barbaric, but at least we don't put people in electric chairs because they disagree with our religious and political views. But that is now. Back then outside of America was quite different.