How are these Great Beings explained?

[CG Didymus]

Yes, much larger cycle, not young earth creationism, or whatever its called. lol.

So what do you think of the "Adamic" Baha'i cycle? Since the Baha'i Faith is part of the Abrahamic "progression", then calling the "Adamic" cycle makes sense. But then how do they make sense of Hinduism that pre-dated the cycle, and it has it's own "progression" of religious thought and teachings, and it's own religions that sprung out of it.

 

[Vinayaka]

So what do you think of the "Adamic" Baha'i cycle? Since the Baha'i Faith is part of the Abrahamic "progression", then calling the "Adamic" cycle makes sense. But then how do they make sense of Hinduism that pre-dated the cycle, and it has it's own "progression" of religious thought and teachings, and it's own religions that sprung out of it.

I ignore Bahai teachings unless they misinterpret my faith. Its up to them to view the world in whatever way they want to. Hindus don't believe in any such thing as an Adamic cycle. As far as I know they Bahaisjust interpret stuff in whatever way they wish. That\s how they added Krishna to the manifestation list, when there are literally thousands of Hindu saints that would be equal to or greater than any of these so called manifestations. The 7 sapta rishis, all the founders of all the various sampradayas, and many more. Krishan, by Hindu teachings of that sampradaya is God.

 

[CG Didymus]

@loverofhumanity...Your culture is laid out from many people around the world and the history of how and what you guys have in common is the culture of your faith.

But that does not solve the issue of using putting all religions into one. I don't see how you see no problem in this.

The Baha'i Faith of the Iranian people I think is different than what I experienced in America in the '70's.

I lived down by San Diego back then and every once in a while some big Baha'i event would happen up in L.A. One of them had several singing groups with the headliners being Seals and Crofts. The young people there were hippies or were at least influenced by the hippie culture. Love, peace, freedom... all the good stuff. No doctrines, no dogmas and, my favorite, a very lax moral code. It was incredible. There was the feelings of joy and love in the air and the Baha'i people seemed to be very accepting. Then the thought, " Wait, not so fast. Are they just being nice to rope me in? What do they really believe?"

Then came the doctrines and rules and things. They had what they called "firesides". Little informal get togethers to tell people about the Faith. The deeper I got into it, the more rules. Then, by the late '70's, an influx of Iranian Baha'is came into the country.... fleeing the problems back in Iran. These Baha'is were super conservative. Men wore suits. Women had very drab, long dresses. Kids were quiet and polite. Something was wrong here.

Rules, Baha'i rules... this is what is expected of a Baha'i? Too become plain, respectful, and the "S" word... submissive? Of course after a generation the kids loosened up a bit. But the older Iranian Baha'is were still like perfect, too perfect. Then later I realized, it's the culture, they came out of an Islamic culture that was strict on dress and behavior already, then they became Baha'is and probably became even more conservative in wanting to make a good impression and show that they were good and decent people.

And they are, to a fault. They might be trying to hard to be everything to everybody, so as not to offend. Like here on this thread, who other than a Baha'i would put up with so many questions and not go ballistic? I think they are doing a great job at showing humility and kindness, but then... they have to also present the beliefs. Yuck. They have to tell us the "truth"... their truth... A new "boss" is in town and his name, or should I say, title is "Baha'u'llah".

So what do we do? If we believe the story and follow him, then we have to follow his rules. If we don't like his rules, or don't believe his story of how he claims to be the fulfillment and return of everybody and everything from the previous religions, then what? Who is he? And that's why I'm here... to find out who he is. Is he a "Great Being" sent from God? Or, just a guy who thought he was? And, it ain't clear.

The Baha'is here are doing a great job, but you and Vinayaka have been amazing. Thanks so much for all your thoughts and input on this thread.

 

[CG Didymus]

We fully agree with them that the Bible and the Quran is the revealed Word of God.

So every word in those books is from God? There are no contradictions between the Jewish Bible and the Christian Bible and the Quran?

Never mind, you answered this before. "Yes, they are from God but the things that seem like contradictions are symbolic. The teachings vary because some were "social" laws for the time. Those were changed by the next manifestation. But the eternal laws of love remained."

"Events written as history, like creation, the flood, the resurrection, are not real you silly goose, they are parables and symbols of something different."

So tell me the symbolism of creation, the flood, the tower of Babel... Sodom and Gomorrah, David and Bathsheba, the virgin birth... wait, you said the virgin birth did happen? So when is a thing not real and only symbolic? Never mind, I know the answer to that too. When the Baha'i Writings say it is.

 

[CG Didymus]

I don't understand. Hate who? Oh you mean FELLOW HUMAN BEINGS". They are a part of the family of humanity. Everybody in this world is a person with a heart that can be hurt and we try not to hurt or harm anyone or allow ourselves to judge anyone but our own selves, our own mistakes.

To me, everyone is human first, human middle and human last.
I abhor, detest and it sickens me that such beautiful people have been so oppressed and mistreated for so long.

Our laws only permit marriage between a man and a woman but that doesn't give us a carte blanch to hate anyone because of their sexual preferences or to discriminate against them.

We Baha'is are instructed to love all humanity unconditionally. I don't know every Baha'i in the world but they were the FIRST people who took me into their home after my 6th suicide attempt and I owe them my life for giving me unconditional acceptance.

I don't like using any labels for people who have different sexual orientations as they are my fellow human beings and that's how I always want to see them.

I said, "Why does God hate gays." Not you. You're instructed to love everyone. But what do you do when your religions tells you that the behavior is an "abnormality"? Here's a quote.
"The question of how to deal with homosexuals is a very difficult one. Homosexuality is forbidden in the Bahá'í Faith by Bahá'u'lláh; so, for that matter, are immorality and adultery. If one is going to start imposing heavy sanctions on people who are the victims of this abnormality, however repulsive it may be to others, then it is only fair to impose equally heavy sanctions on any Bahá'ís who step beyond the moral limits defined by Bahá'u'lláh. Obviously at the present time this would create an impossible and ridiculous situation...(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to the National Spiritual Assembly of the United States, August 20, 1955; cited in LG, #1230, p. 367-368)

Tell me in which "Holy Book" does it say anything positive about being gay?

Leviticus 20:13 NIV 13 “‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

1Corinthians 6:9-10 NIV 9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

So you don't like "labels" but religion does. That is dogma, doctrine, moral codes, whatever you like to call it. And the Baha'i Faith still has it, but a more "user-friendly" version. I'm glad the Baha'i treated you with kindness and respect. And I'm glad you weren't successful at doing yourself in. This thread of yours shows how important you and your opinions are to the world. But still, the Baha'i Faith has rules that some are going to take an extreme view on, while others a more liberal view. Religions in the past, at the order of God, took the hard view. What's the Baha'i Faith gonna do?

 

[loverofhumanity]

So every word in those books is from God? There are no contradictions between the Jewish Bible and the Christian Bible and the Quran?

Never mind, you answered this before. "Yes, they are from God but the things that seem like contradictions are symbolic. The teachings vary because some were "social" laws for the time. Those were changed by the next manifestation. But the eternal laws of love remained."

"Events written as history, like creation, the flood, the resurrection, are not real you silly goose, they are parables and symbols of something different."

So tell me the symbolism of creation, the flood, the tower of Babel... Sodom and Gomorrah, David and Bathsheba, the virgin birth... wait, you said the virgin birth did happen? So when is a thing not real and only symbolic? Never mind, I know the answer to that too. When the Baha'i Writings say it is.

The thing is that the 'spirit of religion' has gone out of religion and although the outward form remains, materialism abounds and so what we need is for the spirit of religion to be renewed.

Religion has already been established in humanity but the spirit of goodwill has faded and that is what we are trying to restore.

Unity and world peace will be by products of the true spirit of religion returning. Things like compassion and justice no longer rule our world. Greed and lust for power do.

The spirit of this age is basically godlessness even though there are billions of so called 'religious' people. You only have to look at the moral and ethical decline in priests and Mullas to see that a lot privately have been using the cover of religion for sexual and political pursuits in the form of terrorism.

All these religions have wonderful teachings but they have been destroying their spirit internally for centuries over sectarian disputes so they have weakened their ability to be taken seriously anymore or exert a strong influence on stoping things like war and establishing peace.

Why can't billions of religious people establish world peace? It's not a numbers or power game but whether the current religions have the spiritual power to change the course of history towards the better. The world seems to be run by politicians drunk with corruption and greed and billions of religionists seem powerless to turn things around.

A candle without light cannot give light to unlit candles. Whereas one candle that's lit can give light to all candles.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I said, "Why does God hate gays." Not you. You're instructed to love everyone. But what do you do when your religions tells you that the behavior is an "abnormality"? Here's a quote.
"The question of how to deal with homosexuals is a very difficult one. Homosexuality is forbidden in the Bahá'í Faith by Bahá'u'lláh; so, for that matter, are immorality and adultery. If one is going to start imposing heavy sanctions on people who are the victims of this abnormality, however repulsive it may be to others, then it is only fair to impose equally heavy sanctions on any Bahá'ís who step beyond the moral limits defined by Bahá'u'lláh. Obviously at the present time this would create an impossible and ridiculous situation...(From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to the National Spiritual Assembly of the United States, August 20, 1955; cited in LG, #1230, p. 367-368)

Tell me in which "Holy Book" does it say anything positive about being gay?

Leviticus 20:13 NIV 13 “‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

1Corinthians 6:9-10 NIV 9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

So you don't like "labels" but religion does. That is dogma, doctrine, moral codes, whatever you like to call it. And the Baha'i Faith still has it, but a more "user-friendly" version. I'm glad the Baha'i treated you with kindness and respect. And I'm glad you weren't successful at doing yourself in. This thread of yours shows how important you and your opinions are to the world. But still, the Baha'i Faith has rules that some are going to take an extreme view on, while others a more liberal view. Religions in the past, at the order of God, took the hard view. What's the Baha'i Faith gonna do?

It's the behaviour which religion seeks to address but self righteous people have misused their scriptures to discriminate and harm people who have different sexual orientations.

nit so are things like adultery never spoken of positively in any Holy Book. I think the Jews used to stone to death a proven adulterer. So it's not just homosexual behaviour that's being singled out.

 

[CG Didymus]

I ignore Bahai teachings unless they misinterpret my faith. Its up to them to view the world in whatever way they want to. Hindus don't believe in any such thing as an Adamic cycle. As far as I know they Bahaisjust interpret stuff in whatever way they wish. That\s how they added Krishna to the manifestation list, when there are literally thousands of Hindu saints that would be equal to or greater than any of these so called manifestations. The 7 sapta rishis, all the founders of all the various sampradayas, and many more. Krishan, by Hindu teachings of that sampradaya is God.

You know, the Baha'i Faith seems like the kind of religion that was meant for the masses... controlling the masses. That's why I think they are a progression of the religions with a lot of rules. The people believe these rules are from God and the try their best to follow them. They go to meetings and social events. They do their prayers and give money, and their leaders keep telling them to obey. Boring.

So what happens? Even in those religions a mystical side emerges that goes beyond the mundane. Where is that deeper, meditative side of the Baha'i Faith. I think it's kind of scary for the "common" "normal" Baha'i because those people will start getting visions and incites that might go contrary and beyond the Baha'i accepted beliefs.

 

[loverofhumanity]

This is doctrine. Your practices are dogma.

Instead of going by the bias of the word, go by its definition.

You're entitled to your opinion.

 

[Vinayaka]

The thing is that the 'spirit of religion' has gone out of religion and although the outward form remains, materialism abounds and so what we need is for the spirit of religion to be renewed.

Religion has already been established in humanity but the spirit of goodwill has faded and that is what we are trying to restore.

Unity and world peace will be by products of the true spirit of religion returning. Things like compassion and justice no longer rule our world. Greed and lust for power do.

There is a lot of spirit of religion left in my faith, I can assure you. Millions of people are fed every day at temples in India. Bahais have a beautiful center in Delhi due to the welcoming nature of Hindus.

If you want to criticise negative aspects of Islam, Christianity, Materialism, I will stand beside you, but when you make sweeping generalisations like this, sorry, I feel obliged to correct the false accusations.

 

[Vinayaka]

You know, the Baha'i Faith seems like the kind of religion that was meant for the masses... controlling the masses. That's why I think they are a progression of the religions with a lot of rules. The people believe these rules are from God and the try their best to follow them. They go to meetings and social events. They do their prayers and give money, and their leaders keep telling them to obey. Boring.

So what happens? Even in those religions a mystical side emerges that goes beyond the mundane. Where is that deeper, meditative side of the Baha'i Faith. I think it's kind of scary for the "common" "normal" Baha'i because those people will start getting visions and incites that might go contrary and beyond the Baha'i accepted beliefs.

Yes that's a problem. I can give an example from architecture. Yes, the Bahai temples are beautiful, in a modern artistic sense. But a Hindu temple (and the Egyptian, Mayan, Greek temples) have their architecture built on mystical codes discovered by ancient seers in mystic visions. They're based on geometry, working outwards from a central individual spot called the sanctum sanctorum or moolasthanam. This is the ancient tradition, and was specifically designed from mystical discovery to work better, just as copper conducts electricity, or water is easier to swim in than sand. Yes, sand waves might be beautiful, but you can't swim in them. The Bahai temples may be beautiful, but because they lack the mystical esoteric stuff, they're also void of vibration the way Hindu temples are.

So in this 'modernising' looking at the outside social change stuff, just so much gets lost. It's just a differing approach, clearly works for some people.

 

[Vinayaka]

You're entitled to your opinion.

As are you.

 

[CG Didymus]

I was born in the 1960s so caught the tail end of this time through the great music. It wasn't until 1990 that I became a Baha'i. I'm aware that the 60s/70s was a time that many came into the faith. I have the impression that some who entered didn't really understand it so later left.



Sounds like a more memorable picnic than I've ever had. But then I missed the free love part of the 60s/70s. Too young.

I believe its very important to understand and investigate a religion before joining. Sometimes we need to take the plunge and just do it. The foundation is a belief in Baha'u'llah as the manifestation of God for this day. Some join because they like the social teachings but its a religious with a spiritual emphasis.



The Baha'i local assemblies will eventually be Local Houses of Justice with significant administrative responsibilities in regards to their cities and territories.

I suspect you know most of this. You know heaps about the Baha'i Faith, Its a movement that's been of interest to you for a while and that's great. I know the resurrection of Christ is something you are getting your head around. What's the main concerns for you?

The main concern is the progression. I minored in religion and cultural anthropology and do see a progression... a progression of leaving dumb ideas about the spiritual reality of things and going to something better and more believable. None of them are 100% believable. And I don't mind revisions within a religions... that's still a progression. Some of those revisions are by total flakes. Some are by partial flakes but they had a better version of the old religion, so it caught on.

The school analogy is a problem. We go to the 1st grade. Our teacher says, "This is the Truth", then leaves. We contort and distort and make whatever we can out of what we were told. Total chaos. Many divisions. Next grade, same thing. Teacher changes the truth and leaves. Some reject the new and keep the old. Some debate and tweek the new into something else. More chaos and divisions.

Now, we look back and ask, "Were any of those teachers real? Were any of their teachings real? They taught contradictory things. What do we believe?"

Along comes the new teacher and says, "They all spoke the truth... but what they say was lost. All we have is these books that might be true but probably not,"

"But teacher, all the books say they are telling the truth."

"Yes, they are... but it's symbolic."

"But you said it's not the truth."

"No, I didn't. You misunderstood. The original teachings in those books is the truth. The original teachings have been lost, though. People have added traditions and misinterpretations to the books, so who knows what the truth is. Got it? Okay, I'm leaving now. Here is the new lesson plan. A new teacher will come in five hundred years. Have fun kids."

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You're entitled to your opinion.

It is the definition of the word.

It does not need to be religious in nature. Dogma and doctrine can be applied to organizations too.

This is not an opinion. By definition, the rules, culture, and tradtions of your religion are considered dogma and doctrine (tradition and teachings).

If you actually read my posts you will understand what i am saying.

How do you learn from someone if you have no interest in what they say?

 

[CG Didymus]

...Why can't billions of religious people establish world peace? It's not a numbers or power game but whether the current religions have the spiritual power to change the course of history towards the better. The world seems to be run by politicians drunk with corruption and greed and billions of religionists seem powerless to turn things around...

Here's a few excerpts from an article, "Enemies Within: Conflict and Control in the Baha'i Community" The Baha’i Faith’s "publicity campaigns have left the impression, even among detractors, that its beliefs are socially progressive and without a strong doctrinal core... However, Baha’i, like other religions in the Abrahamic tradition, is based on a set of texts that are believed to be divinely revealed. Liberal principles are contained in these scriptures, but so are authoritarian elements. Baha’is, then, can be as fundamentalist as the adherents of any other Western religion."

"The Baha’i Faith views the establishment of world unity as its primary mission... This has created anxiety about the articulation of dissent which, in turn, has resulted in severe limits imposed on individual free expression concerning Baha’i beliefs... Hence, the Baha’i Faith places adherents in a psychological bind by simultaneously upholding liberal ideals, which attract intelligent and creative people, while at the same time exerting pressure towards obedience and conformity. This conformity is enforced by the attitudes of fellow adherents, intimidation by Baha’i officials, and sanctions, including excommunication and shunning, limitation of participation in community affairs, and most recently, simply dropping nonconformists from the membership rolls."

Talking about Baha'i that have dropped out or that have become inactive: "They believe they are joining a broad-minded and tolerant religion and become actively involved in its promotion, only to run up against authoritarian expectations that they find insupportable."

One of the disillusioned: "For Baha'is of my generation, we became believers during the exciting and turbulent Vietnam War years because we saw that Baha'u'llah offers humanity the clearest direction for our inner spiritual growth and our work for saving the planet. Most of my Baha'i friends of my youth have left the Faith. Not because they lost faith in Baha'u'llah or the teachings, but because they were not allowed to express their ideals and activism as Baha'is. And today, over and over again, I hear from friends who are quietly leaving the Faith to pursue their ideals in the peace movement, in the women's movement, in the field of ecology, in music and dance, in religious discipline, because they are not allowed to express their commitment to social change, artistic expression, or a mystical path within a Baha'i context."

It's a long article, but that's enough stuff. Key words: "Authoritarian" "Fundamentalist" "Obedience" "Conformity" "Intimidation" "Excommunication" and a very telling one... "Inactive". The article made the claim that a large percentage of "Enrolled" Baha'is are no where to be found. They've vanished. So, at some point, the Baha'is will have to prove to me their own house is in order.

 

[Dawnofhope]

No, you can't. Christians say the ONLY way to God is through Christ, and Christ alone. There are many parts you don't believe in. I'm no biblical scholar but I do know that much.

It is true that many Christians say Christ is the only way to God, but that is not what Christ taught.

It is important to separate Christian belief from the Teachings of Christ.

 

[Vinayaka]

It is true that many Christians say Christ is the only way to God, but that is not what Christ taught.

It is important to separate Christian belief from the Teachings of Christ.

But just whom do you guys believe? Each Christian denomination will say that same thing ..." important to separate " or "but that is not what Christ taught'

So this is just according to you.

What Christ taught, if he taught, how much has been distorted, what history is true, what he said isn't what he intended. I'm just glad I'm not a Christian. The whole thing sounds more like a 'Who is best this year in cricket?" to any actual debate. It's just opposing views, nothing more, nothing less, in my view as a dispassionate observer.

 

[Vinayaka]

Here's a few excerpts from an article, "Enemies Within: Conflict and Control in the Baha'i Community" The Baha’i Faith’s "publicity campaigns have left the impression, even among detractors, that its beliefs are socially progressive and without a strong doctrinal core... However, Baha’i, like other religions in the Abrahamic tradition, is based on a set of texts that are believed to be divinely revealed. Liberal principles are contained in these scriptures, but so are authoritarian elements. Baha’is, then, can be as fundamentalist as the adherents of any other Western religion."

"The Baha’i Faith views the establishment of world unity as its primary mission... This has created anxiety about the articulation of dissent which, in turn, has resulted in severe limits imposed on individual free expression concerning Baha’i beliefs... Hence, the Baha’i Faith places adherents in a psychological bind by simultaneously upholding liberal ideals, which attract intelligent and creative people, while at the same time exerting pressure towards obedience and conformity. This conformity is enforced by the attitudes of fellow adherents, intimidation by Baha’i officials, and sanctions, including excommunication and shunning, limitation of participation in community affairs, and most recently, simply dropping nonconformists from the membership rolls."

Talking about Baha'i that have dropped out or that have become inactive: "They believe they are joining a broad-minded and tolerant religion and become actively involved in its promotion, only to run up against authoritarian expectations that they find insupportable."

One of the disillusioned: "For Baha'is of my generation, we became believers during the exciting and turbulent Vietnam War years because we saw that Baha'u'llah offers humanity the clearest direction for our inner spiritual growth and our work for saving the planet. Most of my Baha'i friends of my youth have left the Faith. Not because they lost faith in Baha'u'llah or the teachings, but because they were not allowed to express their ideals and activism as Baha'is. And today, over and over again, I hear from friends who are quietly leaving the Faith to pursue their ideals in the peace movement, in the women's movement, in the field of ecology, in music and dance, in religious discipline, because they are not allowed to express their commitment to social change, artistic expression, or a mystical path within a Baha'i context."

It's a long article, but that's enough stuff. Key words: "Authoritarian" "Fundamentalist" "Obedience" "Conformity" "Intimidation" "Excommunication" and a very telling one... "Inactive". The article made the claim that a large percentage of "Enrolled" Baha'is are no where to be found. They've vanished. So, at some point, the Baha'is will have to prove to me their own house is in order.

I will respond for you. The Bahais will claim the hatred is from a relative few people who are decidedly anti-Bahai, and these one or two people make a lot of noise. That will be your response, my prophecy. Second option is to ignore, and not enter the discussion, because there are rules against discussing with anti-Bahai folk. But you already probably guessed that.

My personal take? I don't know. Probably exaggeration on all sides.

 

[Ingledsva]

... Baha'u'llah was the first One to embody in a religion the concept of universal human rights. His religion is the first to call for religious unity and we see the first signs of it in the proliferation of interfaith, a small step. The equal status of women, universal education, a world language and world consultation are things that were embodied in His Teachings in the 1860's which have come to pass. ...

Baha'u'llah incorporated universal human rights into His religion before the abolishment of slavery and more than a century before the Declaration of Universal Human Rights.....

We have discussed Baha'u'llah before.

That "religious "unity" only includes the religions of Abraham and few other major religions. Most religions, including the Pagan, are excluded.

That "equal status of women" does not actually mean equal. They still want women in the home role. They want the man in charge. And they do not allow women to hold the highest Baha'i' status in their religious hierarchy. They come out of Abrahamic patriarchy.

*

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It is true that many Christians say Christ is the only way to God, but that is not what Christ taught.

It is important to separate Christian belief from the Teachings of Christ.

What?????????

Sorry. Christians make up the body of christ. Why would I not take your word for your belief unless you arent a full christian?

Christ taught he was the only way to god. Regardless the sacrifice, sacrifical offerings whether animal or as jesus have always been a way for people to be with god by puting their sins on another.

There is only one sacrificial offering in scripture christianity.

Is your interpretation from a bahai perspective?