How are these Great Beings explained?

[loverofhumanity]

Here's a few excerpts from an article, "Enemies Within: Conflict and Control in the Baha'i Community" The Baha’i Faith’s "publicity campaigns have left the impression, even among detractors, that its beliefs are socially progressive and without a strong doctrinal core... However, Baha’i, like other religions in the Abrahamic tradition, is based on a set of texts that are believed to be divinely revealed. Liberal principles are contained in these scriptures, but so are authoritarian elements. Baha’is, then, can be as fundamentalist as the adherents of any other Western religion."

"The Baha’i Faith views the establishment of world unity as its primary mission... This has created anxiety about the articulation of dissent which, in turn, has resulted in severe limits imposed on individual free expression concerning Baha’i beliefs... Hence, the Baha’i Faith places adherents in a psychological bind by simultaneously upholding liberal ideals, which attract intelligent and creative people, while at the same time exerting pressure towards obedience and conformity. This conformity is enforced by the attitudes of fellow adherents, intimidation by Baha’i officials, and sanctions, including excommunication and shunning, limitation of participation in community affairs, and most recently, simply dropping nonconformists from the membership rolls."

Talking about Baha'i that have dropped out or that have become inactive: "They believe they are joining a broad-minded and tolerant religion and become actively involved in its promotion, only to run up against authoritarian expectations that they find insupportable."

One of the disillusioned: "For Baha'is of my generation, we became believers during the exciting and turbulent Vietnam War years because we saw that Baha'u'llah offers humanity the clearest direction for our inner spiritual growth and our work for saving the planet. Most of my Baha'i friends of my youth have left the Faith. Not because they lost faith in Baha'u'llah or the teachings, but because they were not allowed to express their ideals and activism as Baha'is. And today, over and over again, I hear from friends who are quietly leaving the Faith to pursue their ideals in the peace movement, in the women's movement, in the field of ecology, in music and dance, in religious discipline, because they are not allowed to express their commitment to social change, artistic expression, or a mystical path within a Baha'i context."

It's a long article, but that's enough stuff. Key words: "Authoritarian" "Fundamentalist" "Obedience" "Conformity" "Intimidation" "Excommunication" and a very telling one... "Inactive". The article made the claim that a large percentage of "Enrolled" Baha'is are no where to be found. They've vanished. So, at some point, the Baha'is will have to prove to me their own house is in order.

This is our house. Welcome. our lives as Baha'is have been full of joy and happiness especially with all our association with the Baha'i Administration. I can't speak too highly of the Universal House of Justice or the National Spiritual Assemblies we have been associated with.

I remember when I was in India and about to return to Burma to get married, this Bahá'í she took a gold ring off her finger and said, "give this to your wife"!!! I was overwhelmed with such pure love. A pure gold ring just taken off a Baha'i I'd only known for maybe a month. What a gesture. All my life Baha'is have been like this but we are not perfect.

I have been a Baha'i 42 years and my wife a born Bahá'í and we have nothing but praise for the Teachings and the Baha'i Administration.

I've been married for 39 years to a beautiful Bahá'í lady who is from a Baha'i village in Burma and we still can't speak each other's language properly yet we are united. Our Faith has united us and brought our families together.

I have been a Baha'i for 42 years, have a Baha'i family overseas who I have known for 40 years and travelled throughout India, Thailand, been in Burma for 5 years, been a member of the Australian Baha'i Community for 42 years and also visited the Baha'is in England and in all that time all I've experienced has been overwhelming love and kindness especially from the Baha'i Administrative Bodies.

In 42 years as a Baha'i I've never once even been ever asked for money. I love that. I used to have to ask how Baha'is contributed money as nobody told me and I had been a Baha'i for 2 years at the time.

And I must commend and comment on Bahá'í Administration. I got myself into all sorts of strife and problems in my life. Anytime I had problems I went to the National Sprirtual Assembly of Australia and asked them what should I do and they were as a father to me. They helped me in every way possible until I overcame my difficulties whether it was to do with my visa overseas or getting my wife out of Burma. The House of Justice even loaned me the money to buy her air ticket to come back to Australia when we first married. When I came back to Australia after being in Burma for 5 years the NSA helped pay for our return air fares and other expenses about $5,000 and they said I didn't have to pay it back. I still will try to because I feel bad about such kindness which it was my fault I didn't have enough for air fares.

These administrative bodies are spiritual, extremely loving and kind hearted. I have nothing but good to say of them.

When I used to be attacked at work for being a Baha'i the National Spiritual Assembly of Australia used to send me letters with rose petals from the Shrine of Baha'u'llah to comfort me in my anxiety. I think about how such loving bodies care for each and every person. How did they find time for little ol me? They have far more important things to attend to but they still were as a father to me. By the way my father abandoned me when I was 6 years old.

For the record, these are my humble experiences of the awesome Bahá'í Administration who are even as a good shepherd and a loving father who look out for their children and humanity.

 

[loverofhumanity]

It is the definition of the word.

It does not need to be religious in nature. Dogma and doctrine can be applied to organizations too.

This is not an opinion. By definition, the rules, culture, and tradtions of your religion are considered dogma and doctrine (tradition and teachings).

If you actually read my posts you will understand what i am saying.

How do you learn from someone if you have no interest in what they say?

I understand but a Manifestation of God isn't anything but truthful.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I understand but a Manifestation of God isn't anything but truthful.

A dogma/practice and doctrine/teaching can be truthful. You just use different words.

 

[loverofhumanity]

There is a lot of spirit of religion left in my faith, I can assure you. Millions of people are fed every day at temples in India. Bahais have a beautiful center in Delhi due to the welcoming nature of Hindus.

If you want to criticise negative aspects of Islam, Christianity, Materialism, I will stand beside you, but when you make sweeping generalisations like this, sorry, I feel obliged to correct the false accusations.

The world has been waiting for world peace for a long time. Millions have suffered so much horror and cruelty. We religionists, all of us who claim to have attained, bear upon our shoulders the responsibility of creating world peace simply because we are the ones who are such staunch supporters of things like love, justice and ahimsa.

Only by uniting can we turn this ship around as alone we just don't have the strength it requires. Thus the appeal, the constant appeal from Baha'is for the religions to unite as one out of compassion for humanity.

We are only a tiny fragment on this planet. You have a billion souls and the other religions combined have billions and can establish peace if you wanted to.

Why isn't there world peace if religion or the spirit of religion is so strong? Is it because it is not a United strength that can speak with one voice?

The world is interconnected through trade and economies. The suffering of one places a burden on all.

I really cannot fathom why the religions won't unite for the sake of humanity.

 

[loverofhumanity]

A dogma/practice and doctrine/teaching can be truthful. You just use different words.

Yes but the Word also has negative connotations which are not applicable to a Manifestation of God.

 

[CG Didymus]

This is our house. Welcome. our lives as Baha'is have been full of joy and happiness especially with all our association with the Baha'i Administration. I can't speak too highly of the Universal House of Justice or the National Spirituwl Assemblies we have been associated with.

I remember when I was in India and about to return to Burma to get married, this Bahá'í she took a gold ring off her finger and said, "give this to your wife"!!! I was overwhelmed with such pure love. A pure gold ring just taken off a Baha'i I'd only known for maybe a month. What a gesture. All my life Baha'is have been like this but we are not perfect.

I have been a Baha'i 42 years and my wife a born Bahá'í and we have nothing but praise for the Teachings and the Baha'i Administration.

I've been married for 39 years to a beautiful Bahá'í lady who is from a Baha'i village in Burma and we still can't speak each other's language properly yet we are united. Our Faith has united us and brought our families together.

I have been a Baha'i for 42 years, have a Baha'i family overseas who I have known for 40 years and travelled throughout India, Thailand, been in Burma for 5 years, been a member of the Australian Baha'i Community for 42 years and also visited the Baha'is in England and in all that time all I've experienced has been overwhelming love and kindness especially from the Baha'i Administrative Bodies.

In 42 years as a Baha'i I've never once even been ever asked for money. I love that. I used to have to ask how Baha'is contributed money as nobody told me and I had been a Baha'i for 2 years at the time.

And I must commend and comment on Bahá'í Administration. I got myself into all sorts of strife and problems in my life. Anytime I had problems I went to the National Sprirtusl Assembly of Australia and asked them what should I do and they were as a father to me. They helped me in every way possible until I overcame my difficulties whether it was to do with my visa overseas or getting my wife out of Burma. The House of Justice even loaned me the money to buy her air ticket to come back to Australia when we first married. When I came back to Australia after being in Burma for 5 years the NSA helped pay for our return air fares and other expenses about $5,000 and they said I didn't have to pay it back. I still will try to because I feel bad about such kindness which it was my fault I didn't have enough for air fares.

These administrative bodies are spiritual, extremely loving and kind hearted. I have nothing but good to say of them.

When I used to be attacked at work for being a Baha'i the National Spiritual Assembly of Australia used to send me letters with rose petals from the Shrine of Baha'u'llah to comfort me in my anxiety. I think about how such loving bodies care for each and every person. How did they find time for little ol me? They have far more important things to attend to but they still were as a father to me. By the way my father abandoned me when I was 6 years old.

For the record, these are my humble experiences of the awesome Bahá'í Administration who are even as a good shepherds and a loving father who look out for their children and humanity.

That's an excellent response. Thanks.

 

[CG Didymus]

The world has been waiting for world peace for a long time. Millions have suffered so much horror and cruelty. We religionists, all of us who claim to have attained, bear upon our shoulders the responsibility of creating world peace simply because we are the ones who are such staunch supporters of things like love, justice and ahimsa.

Only by uniting can we turn this ship around as alone we just don't have the strength it requires. Thus the appeal, the constant appeal from Baha'is for the religions to unite as one out of compassion for humanity.

We are only a tiny fragment on this planet. You have a billion souls and the other religions combined have billions and can establish peace if you wanted to.

Why isn't there world peace if religion or the spirit of religion is so strong? Is it because it is not a United strength that can speak with one voice?

The world is interconnected through trade and economies. The suffering of one places a burden on all.

I really cannot fathom why the religions won't unite for the sake of humanity.

Does the world in general trust religion? With all the scandals in several religions, why trust them? Do they trust each other? Most see the other religions as the competition and as false. Even the Baha'i Faith... is a hardcore Christian going to listen to you? No, everything you say is meaningless because you don't believe the Bible in the correct way.

They won't be thinking, "Oh, we have to put aside our differences and come together to bring peace." They'll say, "Do you know Jesus as your personal savior?" and try and "save" you from your waywardness.

But aren't you thinking the same thing? "How can I get them to see that the Baha'i Faith is the truth"? So what is more important? Converting them or accepting them, as is, and working with them to make a better world?

 

[loverofhumanity]

A dogma/practice and doctrine/teaching can be truthful. You just use different words.

About cultural appropriation (I expect a like at least for effort)

Christ said He would return as a 'Thief'. He said He would come to appropriate and that's exactly what He's done.

Revelation 16:15

“Behold, I come as a thief.”

As an artist none of your ideas are original because you cannot possibly draw or paint something or a shape that you have never seen before from another artist.

So all your work is 'appropriated' or stolen. The only difference is you call it yours and an emanation from your own mind but as you cannot create and can only copy, nothing paint do is really original.

For instance you draw a circle but circles have been drawn and painted for ages so you had to appropriate how to draw a circle not from your own knowledge and did you ask the original author for permission to draw a circle or a square or even paint freehand?

But God can create so He doesn't need to borrow or steal so when He sent Baha'u'llah He didn't borrow or steal anything He just created a new Revelation out of nothing.

So everything you do is borrowed, copied or stolen or appropriated and yet you accuse God Who CAN create originals of stealing? Illogical and irrational thinking.

1. Steal like an artist.

Every artist gets asked the question, “Where do you get your ideas?”
The honest artist answers, “I steal them.” (Austin Kleon)

1+1 does = 3

 

[loverofhumanity]

Does the world in general trust religion? With all the scandals in several religions, why trust them? Do they trust each other? Most see the other religions as the competition and as false. Even the Baha'i Faith... is a hardcore Christian going to listen to you? No, everything you say is meaningless because you don't believe the Bible in the correct way.

They won't be thinking, "Oh, we have to put aside our differences and come together to bring peace." They'll say, "Do you know Jesus as your personal savior?" and try and "save" you from your waywardness.

But aren't you thinking the same thing? "How can I get them to see that the Baha'i Faith is the truth"? So what is more important? Converting them or accepting them, as is, and working with them to make a better world?

The most important thing is for us all to unite to create a better world. I don't care about conversion as the object and goal of the Baha'i Faith is the Most Great Peace not the conversion of all humanity to the Baha'i Faith.

All deepened Baha'is understand very clearly that we are about appealing to all the religions and people to unite to establish world peace.

I'm happy for Christians to be strong Christians and be,Ivor's in Christ why shouldn't I. He is my saviour as much as theirs.

The refugees, the chemical attacks, the world starvation, all these things are top of our agenda.

The problem is corruption. A lot of aid that is donated never reaches 80% of the people who really need it. It goes to bribes and corruption so no matter how much we give to the poor, poverty never ceases.

We need an honest and just system that will 'empower' people and train and educate them to be able to sustain themselves.

To me a lot of these poverty campaigns are scams. Even the UN has been involved in scams. So we must also look at having another system which will actually make sure help gets to those who really need it and not fill the pockets of corrupt politicians and administrators.

So the priority is people and peace not conversion but why do they always seem to have $trillions for armaments and military budgets worldwide but cant solve poverty? We need a new system not based on greed and wars.

Look at just what the USA alone spent on war in 2016 while we have millions starving!!

http://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/files/cow/imce/papers/2016/Costs of War through 2016 FINAL final v2.pdf

What's going on here? Is there a world war going on that so much money is being committed to war or is it just filling the coffers of corrupt and greedy arms dealers?

This has to change.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Does the world in general trust religion? With all the scandals in several religions, why trust them? Do they trust each other? Most see the other religions as the competition and as false. Even the Baha'i Faith... is a hardcore Christian going to listen to you? No, everything you say is meaningless because you don't believe the Bible in the correct way.

They won't be thinking, "Oh, we have to put aside our differences and come together to bring peace." They'll say, "Do you know Jesus as your personal savior?" and try and "save" you from your waywardness.

But aren't you thinking the same thing? "How can I get them to see that the Baha'i Faith is the truth"? So what is more important? Converting them or accepting them, as is, and working with them to make a better world?

Here's a beautiful statement about peace from Abdul-Bahá on peace.

“During the last six thousand years nations have hated one another, it is now time to stop. War must cease. Let us be united and love one another and await the result. We know the effects of war are bad. So let us try, as an experiment, peace, and if the results of peace are bad, then we can choose if it would be better to go back to the old state of war! Let us in any case make the experiment. If we see that unity brings Light we shall continue it. For six thousand years we have been walking on the left-hand path; let us walk on the right-hand path now. We have passed many centuries in darkness, let us advance towards the light.

 

[Dawnofhope]

This gets interesting because we are examining core Christian beliefs and comparing them to what the Bible actually taught.

I'm scratching my head now. Remember, though, I don't see scripture as metaphorical. If scripture is right, I do believe Jesus is in the Eucharist. I do believe there was such things as sacrificial offerings (that still happen today from people I speak with. Who actually sacrifice animals for sin absolving.)

I do recall you have this tendency to take scripture literally and have reservations about allegory, symbolism, and metaphor.

We've discussed previously our different experiences of communion for me, and the Eucharist for you. We have different understandings. My understanding is biblically based. The last supper and what it means to eat the bread which represents to body and the wine symbolic of the new covenant shed for the remission of sins.

And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
Matthew 26:26-29

They were not literally eating Jesus's body or drinking His blood. The bread represented His body. The fluid in the cup represented His blood of the New Testament.

This drink representing His blood of the New testament would be shed for the remission of sins. These are clearly profound spiritual concepts including a metaphor for Christ's crucifixion. Christ's crucifixion is linked to remission of sins. The concept of sacrifice is clear.

The most famous is "I am the way, truth, and the light. The only way to the father is through me."

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

There is too many scriptures to quote, actually. According to jesus, to know god is to come through him. That's how people are saved is by jesus sacrifice. I don't see it as a metaphor. If it is true, to me, it would be literal. I find it odd any christian would think their salvation is symbolic.

I have explained John14:6. It is not a case of metaphor but historic context that we come to understand the most obvious meaning, that He is the Promised One or the Jewish Messiah prophesised in the OT (do you think this is cultural appropriation by Christ?).

The concept of Jesus being the 'Son of God' is profound and has symbolism and allegory that relates to both the OT and New Covenant/Testament.

When you say we are saved through Jesus sacrifice we need to understand what is meant otherwise it starts to sound like a human sacrifice in the sense that animals were slaughtered to appease the gods of old. It is not literally like that.

The reason Jesus was crucified by the Romans after being interrogated by Caiaphas the chief priest of the Jews, was not because they were performing a human sacrifice. It was because of a rejection of Jesus's claim to be the Messiah. Jesus knew this would happen and agreed to be crucified. It was part of a Divine plan and provided us with one of the most potent symbols in religious history, pregnant with many meanings.

Based on your experience, was your experienced based on a metaphor or something that actually happened to you as a christian?

I go off my experience. If I went off my knowledge, well, I disagree with a lot of what scripture says but it doesn't mean it's a metaphor just means to me, it's false. To many christians it is not. Since christians make up the body of christ, they should have some authority to speak about christ. If the apostles can, why can't christians?

I am eternally grateful for the sacrifice Jesus made to save my soul. However His life was a sacrifice, not just the crucifixion and in that manner we should all pick up our crosses and walk with Him (Matthew 10:38). We do not literally pick up a cross as Jesus did and ask the authorities to reinstate capital punishment Roman style. We sacrifice our lower nature (ego, desire, and passions) so the qualities of Christ become manifest in us. We become loving, compassionate, just, kind, and steadfast in His ways. That is not a head thing but living the life. That is walking the spiritual path with practical feet. It is also starting to sound very much like what people of other faiths do.

The apostles were inspired by God's unerring spirit. Some Christians can aspire to great heights too, but many fall short. What a Christian says or believes does not carry the same weight as the words and actions of either Jesus himself or His apostles.

Think about it, though. Unless your salvation is metaphorical, I'm kinda confused.

If jesus actually existed as a historical figure and the Romans existed and did crucify him, I'd assume that the Jews existed to accuse him and the Romans actually did the killing. I don't see any reason to doubt this historical nature of this if it is true.

We are agreed about the history around the crucifixion and there is no good reason I have to doubt it.

Since jesus said he was the only way to god and god continuously said that jesus is their salvation in one way or another, I would also assume that unlike metaphors, he actually said he takes the sins upon himself as people have died or crucified their sins in christ so they can live.

Jesus also said there are many sheep not of this fold. John 10:16

Salvation is about both faith and deeds. Jesus on the cross helps us to understand this and the sacrifice we need to make in our lives.

We can not understand this, unless we live it. It must be a living part of our lives, not a memory of how things used to be when we called ourselves Christians. Our experience of Jesus within us is ever changing and must be responsive to the changes in our lives as well as the changes of these times we live in.

In other words, jesus is flesh. Flesh is sin (literal because we do sin, of course). Jesus teachings teach christians about god and the nature of sin. He also teaches that through himself-his flesh-that people are crucified in/in him, they die to their flesh-which people actually do-they are saved.

Jesus was a human like us, but it was His Divine qualities that enabled His perfection. This Divine qualities were reflected in His Life and teachings of which the crucifixion was only a part.

They aren't saved by the apostles, none of the jews, the pharisee, no one else but jesus.

However the apostles help us understand the significance of Jesus and the meaning of His teachings and Life. They assist our understanding and therefore to live the life. Our salvation through Christ is on a weak foundation if we reject the apostles who were profoundly inspired by Him.

So, when jesus died the Church/body of believers formed and spread Christ's teachings (the Father's Words) to neighboring lands in Acts.

The Church became the new body of Christ. That is affirmed when we have communion. We are in the body of Christ and Christ is in us.

His resurrection was a confirmation that when people die in their sins, live like christ, they will be in union with god.

His resurrection unlike His crucifixion could not possibly have happened as recorded in the gospels. Regardless it is allegorical for the Eternal life we all can have through Christ. I know you do not believe in God or an eternal soul so just explaining how I see it. I know you disagree with how I view the resurrection. Yet your belief in a physical resurrection assumes a Powerful God that you don't seem to believe in.

These things people actually do. They actually repent to die to their sins and live a new life. It isn't metaphorical. Their association with jesus' death and his words isn't metaphorical. They literally do believe that jesus, through his flesh, lead the way for them to live his teachings by faith so they can be resurrected. Jesus taught this in light during the Lesurath event. The faith brought the man alive. When people put faith in jesus because his words is of his father, they will be resurrected. They can't be resurrected without sacrifice.

Sure they repent but how many times can you say sorry until it becomes meaningless. If your partner is violent towards you, says sorry, and then does the same thing all over again the next time and the day after? How many ties should you forgive him? Seven times seventy? Matthew 18:21-22

No I'm not advocating domestic violence. We need to change our ways if we are truly to repent. We need to look deeper to understand the words of Jesus, otherwise are conclusions will be false.

In the OT, people actually sacrifice lambs so that their sins will die/blood of the lamb/life of the lamb dies so they are in union with god. Sacrifice like this is done today. It's all literal.

If it was metaphorical, why would we need to do anything to be saved. Why would scripture say god judges by people's works if his plan was metaphorical?

Ahh, the metaphor of the slain lamb or the blood of the lamb. Was Jesus physically a lamb?

Catholicism is a pretty literal faith because, unlike protestant christianity where symbolism is hightened, in Catholicism, the literal sacraments and experience is emphasised. When you are baptized, you are literally baptized not metaphorically. Repentence (or confessing one's sins) is actually confession. When people take bread and wine (the sacrificial meal) they do so literally because it literally (if you look at the people in Mass) brings more than one person together and this, in scripture, makes jesus present in his body which, in Catholicism, is seen through jesus last meal.

I just love the Catholics.

The resurrection after taking the Eucharist is a confirmation of the promised to be with god forever.

Eternal life you mean?

I don't see how a relationship with christ can be metaphorical. Sacrifice plays a huge part in christianity. To me, it is barbaric, but at least we don't put people in electric chairs because they disagree with our religious and political views. But that is now. Back then outside of America was quite different.

If sacrifice to you is barbaric, is it possible you have the wrong understanding of what Jesus and the apostles really taught in regards sacrifice?

 

[Dawnofhope]

My opinion is that secularism has been a disaster for India. We now have an entire version of Hinduism that is weak in tradition, called liberal Hinduism. It's nothing more than a cultural center, God is not there much. In my city people flock to the traditional temple for God, but will go to a liberal Hindu temple to eat.

But liberal Christianity is like that too. Not much more than a social hall, gathering place.

But that's just me. Whatever works. I like my energy dancing.

The consequences of a spiritual decline in the West are multifaceted ranging from an increase in family breakdown, addictions, and mental health problems, and materialism generally. How about in India? What do you think is required to revitalise spirituality for the Indian community?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Yes but the Word also has negative connotations which are not applicable to a Manifestation of God.

Why not stick with postive and point blank definitions. When going off of other peoples bias, your views reflect it.

Also, I notice you dont read my posts even for its context. To have a discussiom and learn you at least gotta be interesred in my point of view. I read amd reply to all your bahai posts but see no interest in return.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Artists dont appropriate. We share because of like interest and passion. However, if an artist drew a pink circle and copy right it and I drew the same and tried to copyright, I cant. It is his copyright. I cant duplicate his art no matter his art no matter how much I try. In art, writing, etc you "get permission" to appropriate by asking. Until then, I cant make the same painting even if I tried.

In your case, it is not an art. You are litterally "reinterpreting" on purpose and without mutual agreement other peoples religious beliefs. Unlike me who may try to create the same circle, you, in comparison, are changing that circle shape tonfit your own needs.

That--- is cultural appropriation.

Stealing when it comes to anything is only considered stolen if created item is copyrighted and used without permission.

Same as with you. Each religion has their own copyrighted truth. Its copyrighted because their truth is shaped on same experiences, traditions, and practice.

You take these things out and dont even identify with these religions. That is cultural appropriation. Appropriating someone elses beliefs into your own.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I'm glad to hear that there has been changes. The people that had problems were David Langness, Steven Scroll, Juan R.I. Cole.
I met Steven and I think I heard the other two speak at Baha'i meeting before. The article: "A Modest Proposal" is at the heart of the problem. It was published in "Dialogue", a magazine edited by Steven Scroll. Here's a link to a letter from Steven to UHofJ.

Thanks for all your time. I'm going to jam on the guitar a little bit now. See you.

Thank you for sharing the documents. Its really hard to discuss as neither of us have all the available information. There are always three sides to every story. What he said, what she said, and what actually happened. It all concerns events that happened about 20 years ago.

What were the specific concerns you had?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Why not stick with postive and point blank definitions. When going off of other peoples bias, your views reflect it.

Also, I notice you dont read my posts even for its context. To have a discussiom and learn you at least gotta be interesred in my point of view. I read amd reply to all your bahai posts but see no interest in return.

Carlita I can't understand why you keep saying I'm not reading your posts. I read every post and reply.

I was away the other day and couldn't find new posts as they rolled over so I don't know if I missed some but I'm flabbergasted that you keep saying this as I've been making efforts to reply to all your statements and questions.

Are you maybe misunderstanding my replies as irrelevant or the answers not what you expect?

I don't understand. I wouldn't be able sleep at night if I upset you deliberately so I have no idea if I missed some posts the other day or my answers made you felt I wasn't understanding you.

I'm married to a person who's language I cannot fully understand and she is not fluent in mine yet we can communicate perfectly.

Please don't always assume the worst. I respect you more than you think.

I've NEVER deliberately ignored or neglected your posts so I'm very sorry you feel that I'm not reading them but I am.

Sometimes your grammar is not clear so I just answer the best I can. Anyway sincerest apologies. I'll accept the blame although I don't know for what as I haven't been deliberately not reading your posts at all.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Symbolism is more "I take the Eucharist and now Im in symbolic or mimicking communion of jesus supper."

Literal is more christians are actually coming to communion, actually participating in a shared meal, and actually bring the spirit of Christ by doing so. Unless christ is a metaphor, it is a literal event.

Unless I go in the parish and hear someone say "we are having Mass" and everyone is bowing their head. I'd be more, "but what are they doing?"

"Oh, we're having a symbolic Mass. It's all in our heads. Don't worry, that's what Christ taught. He also bowed his head at his own table with the disciples. They didn't have a real meal. It was all symbolic."

Understand the difference?

So everything you do is borrowed, copied or stolen or appropriated and yet you accuse God Who CAN create originals of stealing? Illogical and irrational thinking.

Yep. It is not logical thinking. Cultural appropriation is taking someone else's beliefs and/or culture and putting it into your own fair and simple.

Stealing is taking things that do not belong to you. You can't "steal" beliefs, if going literally.

Also, the problem appropriation, though I personally feel that is wrong for any culture to do. It's actually reinterpreting that culture you are appropriating without checking if it is right according to their scriptures and their believers.

God has nothing to do with it.

This drink representing His blood of the New testament would be shed for the remission of sins. These are clearly profound spiritual concepts including a metaphor for Christ's crucifixion. Christ's crucifixion is linked to remission of sins. The concept of sacrifice is clear.

We are actually drinking wine and actually drinking bread. A Catholic will say blood but he is referring to the spirit of christ rather than the actual drink. The Crucifixion in the wind and resurrection in the bread.

Catholics are actually coming together. They are literally breaking the bread and literally passing it around (or giving it) to practitioners or disciples of christs. It's not symbolic. Mass is not symbolic, it is an actual event based on what they believe is an actual last supper. Catholics know they are not the actual disciples and the priest knows he is not christ. They are seeing it literal because they are doing these things themselves not pretending they are mimicking the last supper. That's an insult to christ.

I have explained John14:6. It is not a case of metaphor but historic context that we come to understand the most obvious meaning, that He is the Promised One or the Jewish Messiah prophesised in the OT (do you think this is cultural appropriation by Christ?).

Jewish view is cultural appropriation from christians. Christ didn't culturally appropriate, according to NT scripture. He just summarized Moses law. Unlike Bahai, he didn't misinterpret it or changed it. It was the same.

We do not literally pick up a cross as Jesus did and ask the authorities to reinstate capital punishment Roman style. We sacrifice our lower nature (ego, desire, and passions) so the qualities of Christ become manifest in us.

Christ explains the meaning of the cross and what it actually means to pick up one's sins. Catholics, well all christians that I know, don't see the cross itself as means for them to be crucified. The literal nature of crucifiction, like communion, is the actual event of what they do. When jesus died he knew his death in and of itself didn't wash away sins. He told people it does so by faith. Faith is a literal act not symbolic. It is shown in the lesurreth story among others that faith (literal faith) saves a person from death. No Christian I know thinks an actual cross is on their back. That isn't what jesus taught.

Jesus was a human like us, but it was His Divine qualities that enabled His perfection. This Divine qualities were reflected in His Life and teachings of which the crucifixion was only a part.

According to scripture, yes. His life incorporated his full Passion. You need all components (death to sin, life of christ, and being born again all literal) for it to be what christ taught.

However the apostles help us understand the significance of Jesus and the meaning of His teachings and Life. They assist our understanding and therefore to live the life. Our salvation through Christ is on a weak foundation if w

The apostles are not jesus. This is my point.

The Church became the new body of Christ. That is affirmed when we have communion. We are in the body of Christ and Christ is in us.

The body of christ is not just in you. When more than one person literally come together, that is the body (a group of people) of christ. That is when christ (his body) is actually/literally present. Of course it is in christians. Catholics believe they are also the body of christ not just symbolically in them as in a new age thing.

Ahh, the metaphor of the slain lamb or the blood of the lamb. Was Jesus physical

If history is right, jesus was actually slain. Whether one wants to attribute his actual death to theirs, to me, that's creepy. However, jesus never taught to mimic his death. He taught to die to themselves. It's a literal event. He didn't say copy him. He said do it yourself.

Have your own communion.
Your own baptism.
Your own salvation.

Yes, you do this through me but without your action in these sacraments (sacred acts) then you will not be one with the father.

Eternal life you mean?

Either or. I'm not christian. I just go by experience. Christian words aren't my forte unless I can interpret it literally. I don't believe in eternal life so...

If sacrifice to you is barbaric, is it possible you have the wrong understanding of what Jesus and the apostles really taught in regards sacrifice?

Symbolic or literal, human sacrifice (the actual sacrifice of one's flesh) is barbaric. To me, to use Jesus as a means to this sacrifice is barbaric. It's literally taking someone else's flesh in order for that christian to die. It's using a person. However you see it, I don't agree with using people as scapegoats. In the OT it was done all the time. Christian's do it by christ.

What christ actually taught? He didn't teach it symbolic. Just some christians see it that way. Kind of odd, then they say they have real salvation.

Weird... really.

 

[Vinayaka]

I really cannot fathom why the religions won't unite for the sake of humanity.

But many are 'united' in that spirit, just not under the leadership of Bahai. The U Thant Peace award is presented, all the various world Peace tours by Hindu Gurus keep happening. Much is being attempted, and there is much success. Even if Bahai wasn't here at all there would be much progress. People all around this planet are making great efforts. If you'd look around, you'd see it.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Carlita I can't understand why you keep saying I'm not reading your posts. I read every post and reply.

I was away the other day and couldn't find new posts as they rolled over so I don't know if I missed some but I'm flabbergasted that you keep saying this as I've been making efforts to reply to all your statements and questions.

Are you maybe misunderstanding my replies as irrelevant or the answers not what you expect?

I don't understand. I wouldn't be able sleep at night if I upset you deliberately so I have no idea if I missed some posts the other day or my answers made you felt I wasn't understanding you.

I'm married to a person who's language I cannot fully understand and she is not fluent in mine yet we can communicate perfectly.

Please don't always assume the worst. I respect you more than you think.

I've NEVER deliberately ignored or neglected your posts so I'm very sorry you feel that I'm not reading them but I am.

Sometimes your grammar is not clear so I just answer the best I can. Anyway sincerest apologies. I'll accept the blame although I don't know for what as I haven't been deliberately not reading your posts at all.

I have responsibilities too. I have to read all posts because I can't reply in one setting. It's too much information at once and my brain because of disability has to work in sections. Not many people do that because they can do points in their head. I can't.

I mean, it took awhile just to even get as far as "if your truth is my truth, what is my truth?"

and you have yet to answer the question. Yes, many people have mystical experiences but I have not experienced them. They aren't mystical, supernatural, or spiritual. It's life just the tree growing in front of my apartment building. Once I see it as sacred, I put it above me. It makes me imbalance.

I say you don't read everything I say because reading, taking interest in what I say, and wanting to learn my point of view all goes together. If you don't have interest in the meaning and context in what I say especially when it conflicts with your own views, how will you learn other people's perspectives.

For example, when I talk about cultural appropriation, I keep asking you do you at least understand what I am talking about and how do you understand it. I asked many times about your understanding. I can't change your mind and don't want to. I just find it odd you either don't understand and don't say so or understand and just tell me what you believe rather than addressing what I believe.

I mean, I read all these Bahai quotes and what you guys say and it still stumps me.

Like the artist thing. I can never duplicate someone else's circle. If they copyrighted, it is their art not my own. If I came over, stole it, put it in my art, and interpret it how I feel, then that is art appropriation.

Cultural appropriation is taking things from other cultures and putting it into your own. It has a negative connotation because it disrespect other people's cultural values without respect. Many cultural values and traditions are not just given. They have certain initiation rites and other things one must go through to gain information they consider truth.

Even by telling them they all have one truth is an insult. Whether you think it is or not, that's your belief. But to understand what I say, again, you have to take interest in the accusation not defend it with your own beliefs.

 

[Vinayaka]

The consequences of a spiritual decline in the West are multifaceted ranging from an increase in family breakdown, addictions, and mental health problems, and materialism generally. How about in India? What do you think is required to revitalise spirituality for the Indian community?

We have to get back to seeing the great strength in all the peaceful traditional parts of Hinduism, and realise the western influence wasn't 'progress' at all. I think it will happen once infrastructure and other situations that lead to poverty improves. Once some of the adharma like rice conversion is removed, things can only get better.