How are these Great Beings explained?

[Dawnofhope]

I don't know if you're old enough to go back to the late '60's and early '70's, but that's when this happened. Deeply spiritual people finding truth in Eastern religions, some finding "Jesus" some going back to nature, some tried the Baha'i Faith.

I was born in the 1960s so caught the tail end of this time through the great music. It wasn't until 1990 that I became a Baha'i. I'm aware that the 60s/70s was a time that many came into the faith. I have the impression that some who entered didn't really understand it so later left.

She needed and expected a more mystical experience. She was the type of person, a free spirit, that would dance and sing, go skinny dipping in the ocean... not the proper behavior of a Baha'i.

Sounds like a more memorable picnic than I've ever had. But then I missed the free love part of the 60s/70s. Too young.

I believe its very important to understand and investigate a religion before joining. Sometimes we need to take the plunge and just do it. The foundation is a belief in Baha'u'llah as the manifestation of God for this day. Some join because they like the social teachings but its a religious with a spiritual emphasis.

Whether they were right or wrong, you can tell me, but they expected a more conservative behavior. The Baha'is seemed to want to present themselves as being well educated and knowledgeable also. They had to be to read Shoghi Effendi's writings. She was the ninth adult in the community, so they needed her to form their first Spiritual Assembly. I went to the picnic she helped plan. It was great. Later some of us went skinny dipping in the ocean... she was the only Baha'i that went.

The Baha'i local assemblies will eventually be Local Houses of Justice with significant administrative responsibilities in regards to their cities and territories.

I suspect you know most of this. You know heaps about the Baha'i Faith, Its a movement that's been of interest to you for a while and that's great. I know the resurrection of Christ is something you are getting your head around. What's the main concerns for you?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Do Baha'is believe in capital punishment? If so, what is God's way of doing the deed? 'Cause stoning was his method that he told to Moses. So did God change his mind?

So let's talk about traditions, religious traditions. Where did they come from? We're they based on the teachings of the manifestation? Or, were they made up by religious leaders? And, if they are going to make up traditions, why not the whole religion and the story about the manifestation himself? Or, something more common, supposedly an angel told a man a story and a great religion grew out of the book he wrote?

Another related thing is that in other posts the Baha'i position seems to be one of encouraging cultural diversity, but how is the culture of a people separate from it's religion and it's traditions?

How about we put you in charge of a country wandering in the desert? Someone commits a crime. What do you do as others want to retaliate and their families will get into an awefull brawl with the other person's family which could involve 50 people or more getting killed.

1. Do you call 999?
2. Do you arrest the guilty party and throw him in the non existent prison in the desert?
3. Do you schedule a court appearance?

Others are watching your style of leadership and ready to steal, kill, rape and already have created a hit list if you can't keep control.

It could get real,messy unless you show strong leadership and make the punsishment a deterrent as well as make others respect your leadership.

If you're only choice to keep law and order and justice was to stone the person to death what would you do?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Also, why have Moses and Christ in your faith if you don't respect the Hebrew scriptures they written and quoted from?

You talk down about the bible and its practices, put them in your faith, pick a few out of hundreds of prophets in the Hebrew scriptures, say they support your message of peace without consulting with the people with whom you want peace with.

What has that to do with the followers of these religions discarding outdated traditions?

Both Moses and Christ are loved and revered by Baha'is. I don't know why you would try and twist what I quoted about outdated laws like stoning which were required to keep law and order then into questioning our loyalty to Moses and Jesus????

Jesus and Moses, their teachings have breathed new life into Civilisation for thousands of years. Their contribution to humanity cannot be ever repaid.

But they brought some laws only for that time which they knew would be superseded by future Manifestations.

Talking down the Bible? The Bible is the Word of God.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I'm sorry, but you simply do not understand the meaning of dogma. Maybe because so many people speak negatively of dogma, you have understood it as a 'bad' thing and are trying to distance yourself from it. I really don't know. It merely refers to a set of rules, perhaps even guidelines if used more loosely./ Surely Bahai has guidelines, or rules.

Unfortunately dogma is often associated with negative things.

The thing is we don't have man made teachings or doctrines. We don't have theologians.

For instance one definition is 'arrogant conviction'.

In a Faith which has no individual leadership or individual authoritative leadership and which makes decisions through open, frank and loving consultation with bodies that were democratically elected without nomineering, I fail to see how 'arrogant conviction' can apply to the Baha'i Faith.

Maybe imperfect individuals but definitely not the processes of the Faith which come directly from the Words of Baha'u'llah.

 

[loverofhumanity]

So he made new, more sensible rules. That's called dogma. A different dogma, yes, but still dogma.

I tried to find the post where you asked whether we believe in all the Bhagavad Gita. Authenticity is a problem with scriptures so old but we consider it sacred. Also, it is one of the Sacred Scriptures we read in our Temples all over the world.We might in differ interpretation.

 

[loverofhumanity]

@loverofhumanity

I honestly don't see how you are missing this. Your religion has tradition.

" Bahá’u’lláh and His Covenant provides a summary of the origins of the Bahá’í Faith, including brief descriptions of the lives of the Báb, Bahá’u’lláh, ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, and Shoghi Effendi. It also introduces the Universal House of Justice, the institution ordained by Bahá’u’lláh to which the entire Bahá’í community today turns for guidance in the application of the Bahá’í teachings."

!Bahai.org

These are dogma and doctrine.

Dogma and doctrine isn't defined by the source. Aliens could create dogma and doctrine. It's just saying they are tenants, teachings, scripture, Dharma, whatever that are given that followers use as guidelines to follow in their respective faiths.

Your traditions is in your website that describes the origin of Bahai and what they mean and goals are.

Your culture is laid out from many people around the world and the history of how and what you guys have in common is the culture of your faith.

But that does not solve the issue of using putting all religions into one. I don't see how you see no problem in this.

You have a habit of getting stuck on words which have negative connotations when talking about Bahá'í.

Do you honestly expect me to agree with a term that is described in one dictionary as 'arrogant conviction'??

I'm never going to say that about God, Baha'u'llah or Chrust, Muhammad or Buddha. They were all Perfect Beings and taught truth not dogma.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I dont see this much in the bigger faiths, but I notice new ones like Bahai, UU, and SGI probably among others have more or a political and organizational stance on spirituality. All three seem to put doctrine/dogma aside. All three promote diversity.

Baha'is are asked to consort with peoples of all faiths and backgrounds in a spirit of love and fellowship. Because of this we have adherents from all backgrounds and religions. Of course we have laws and practices as with any other religion.

To tell you honestly, if bahaullahs teachings are humanity teachings, why is it a religion? I know god is in it but what makes it a religion if you dont see the dogma/doctrines/culture that we see you have but bahais of many faiths may not see themselves?

Baha'u'llah's teachings are for humanity, that is true. But then we would argue that the teachings of all the great world religions are for humanity.

Naturally we have an emerging Baha'i culture. This is based as much as possible on Baha'u'llah's Teachings which we attribute to God rather than man made teachings.

Hope that helps.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Here is what Swami Tadgatananda says about Krishna:

"Devaki's child was but the plenitude of Brahman, pūrna brahma, manifesting its powers through the human form of an avatara, to uphold dharma and restore balance in a world afflicted with anomie. He was quick to remind his imprisoned parents about his true nature, and the parents, gifted with divine insight, were equally quick to apprehend the implications. Mother Devaki could not hide her awe:

That you the Supreme Being, who hold the whole universe within yourself at the time of your cosmic sleep, have been born of my womb is only your imitation of human ways to hide your identity—what a great joke you are playing on the world! Bhagavata

Krishna was not the first incarnation of Vishnu. So Devaki was not unaware of the special manifestation of the Divine in human form. But to have the Divine for one’s child was overwhelming even for Devaki. The incarnation is ‘the meeting point of all contradictions, the best visible expression of the invisible divine ground’, and in Krishna, the eighth major avatara of Vishnu, we find reconciled a host of paradoxes. That the apparently frail infant in Devaki’s lap could inform her of his extraordinary nature was only one of the many acts that sets apart Krishna from other humans, even as it points to the infinite potential latent in the human frame. Of the many avataras—and the Bhagavata speaks of the possibility of infinite divine incarnations- Krishna’s life remains uniquely etched in people's consciousness. Not only have his life and teachings had a major impact in the development of culture both religious and secular on the Indian sub-continent; his legend has been an integral part of the lives of numerous people down the ages. His miraculous and heroic exploits have provided the theme for numerous and varied representations in literature, art, music, sculpture, folk song, and drama. For littérateurs, artists, and spiritual seekers he is an eternal inspiration. "

By Swami Tadgatananda

Krishna - Hindupedia, the Hindu Encyclopedia

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The traditions and laws in the Bible, many of them, are no longer applied by the followers. Why? They themselves acknowledge that times have changed and the old laws have become out of date.

However things like the Ten Commandments we uphold.

Ask the Jews why they no longer stone people for adultery.

These were examples use of out of date traditions that should no longer be accepted. My argument was that not all traditions can be kept.

It's common sense that traditions which are good are worthy of being kept.

The Catholic Church holds a lot of what you call "old" traditions. What you are talking about is legal and regional law "policies" that are not binding on gentiles as they are jews. Laws change. Now in America its against the law to stone people. Yet, we kill people after their last meal in electric chairs. You can call these religious traditions but Id never relate anything bad or harmful as a religious tradition. Thats silly.

You keep talking about traditions as if they are bad. Again, I am saying love and unity are defined by their traditions.

By saying that phrase alone, I am not talking about bad "traditions."

You do need to go to a Synaguge or Mosque. Religious traditions (praying in specific languages, postrations, prayer) are all upheld today.

If you actually been to a Buddhist temple or Hindu temple taking off your shoes (especially in Japanese buddhism) is a tradition and respect. The tebanacle innthe Catholic Church mimics the Tebancle in Leviticas where levite priest were told told to protect the sacrifice. Any jew that went under the tent instantly died.

These are things god did not man. Traditions adapt but shoukd not be discarded. You are talking about the wrong "traditions." Get rid of politics and

Try to take interest in what I say.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

These things are unhealthy for our mindset and our society and I believe Baha'u'llah is looking out for us all by abolishing things harmful to us offficially in a religious Holy Book

@loverofhumanity

If you take these things out the bible, christians and jews wouldnt have understanding of gods full nature. They are part of the bible. I dont know why you are relating crimes in the bible to religious traditions. These are laws.

Laws change.

Im talking about religious traditions. You are talking about politics.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You have a habit of getting stuck on words which have negative connotations when talking about Bahá'í.

Do you honestly expect me to agree with a term that is described in one dictionary as 'arrogant conviction'??

I'm never going to say that about God, Baha'u'llah or Chrust, Muhammad or Buddha. They were all Perfect Beings and taught truth not dogma.

Dogma are religious tenants and traditions. Whether they come from god or man has nothing to donwith the definition.

You have dogma and doctrine in your religion. Call it teachings if you like but the fact you have tenants and scripture and other religions scripture, you have dogma and doctrine.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@loverofhumanity

The point is you are dropping religious traditions to make religions into one. That is not possible unless you get rid kf good traditions too.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

No you dont. Bahaullah is no where in the scriptures and quran. That point alone

 

[Unveiled Artist]

We fully agree with them that the Bible and the Quran is the revealed Word of God.

No you dont.

Scripture and quran does not speak of bahaullah.

They have to agree with you not just you agree with them.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The difference is to me is that God reveals truth. Man creates dogma.

The definition of dogma has nothing to do with who gave it.

They are just teachings and practices you do in your faith. You have dogma.

 

[Vinayaka]

We fully agree with them that the Bible and the Quran is the revealed Word of God.

No, you can't. Christians say the ONLY way to God is through Christ, and Christ alone. There are many parts you don't believe in. I'm no biblical scholar but I do know that much.

 

[Vinayaka]

I tried to find the post where you asked whether we believe in all the Bhagavad Gita. Authenticity is a problem with scriptures so old but we consider it sacred. Also, it is one of the Sacred Scriptures we read in our Temples all over the world.We might in differ interpretation.

Considering something sacred, and believing in it all are two different things. I can live with 'considering it sacred'. That's similar to how most Hindus view the Vedas, after all.

But for me, the Bible would be another matter. Just as Bahai would consider some teachings from the religions that don't have books, more the oral traditions, I would say it's just irrelevant to me, a stance of neutrality.

Now ... this arrogant conviction' stuff. An individual can't make that determination for himself. It is the others watching him that make it. 'Too proud of your humility' comes to mind. Yes, I see anyone who constantly refrains, "I'm right and you're wrong' as having arrogant conviction. And this includes people of all faiths that I have met. Some, but not even most.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Words of Baha'u'llah.

This is doctrine. Your practices are dogma.

Instead of going by the bias of the word, go by its definition.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Considering something sacred, and believing in it all are two different things. I can live with 'considering it sacred'. That's similar to how most Hindus view the Vedas, after all.

But for me, the Bible would be another matter. Just as Bahai would consider some teachings from the religions that don't have books, more the oral traditions, I wouldn't say it's just irrelevant to me, a stance of neutrality.

Now ... this arrogant conviction' stuff. An individual can't make that determination for himself. It is the others watching him that make it. 'Too proud of your humility' comes to mind. Yes, I see anyone who constantly refrains, "I'm right and you're wrong' as having arrogant conviction. And this includes people of all faiths that I have met. Some, but not even most.

There's so much still to learn. For me personally I can accept a lot of things. Things like terrorism or holy war or racism are things I'm against but most people I believe are good and believe in goodness and truth and so the door is open for me to welcome all and reject none except things which destroy human dignity.

I believe a human is a noble being with a higher spiritual self and a baser self to look after bodily needs and that it is when the baser or lower self and passions control us that we can become worse than the animals who don't kill without good reason.

Ahimsa is on a different level that you would have better mastered than me because you have been living in its aura for so long. I'm just beginning to wake up.

Just one thing. I was reading where Krishna said the Vedas emanated from Him and also that somewhere in the Vedas Krishna was mentioned? He said yoga of the Vedas i think was originally taught to His ancestors Manu etc then lost, then taught again by Him.

And also, do you know of the Two Asvins Who are supposed to be two Divine Physicians? They receive a lot of praise in the Vedas. I'm wondering if, as they are seen as Gods then they might not be Twin Manifestations because there is not a real difference.

With interpretations and things like that, there's always a different way of seeing things other than the traditional popular viewpoint. Sometimes more than one understanding has truth in it.

 

[Vinayaka]

Just one thing. I was reading where Krishna said the Vedas emanated from Him and also that somewhere in the Vedas Krishna was mentioned? He said yoga of the Vedas i think was originally taught to His ancestors Manu etc then lost, then taught again by Him.

And also, do you know of the Two Asvins Who are supposed to be two Divine Physicians? They receive a lot of praise in the Vedas. I'm wondering if, as they are seen as Gods then they might not be Twin Manifestations because there is not a real difference.

I don't know those stories.