How are these Great Beings explained?

[loverofhumanity]

Here's another definition then.

1. a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true.
   "the Christian dogma of the Trinity"
   synonyms: teaching, belief, tenet, principle, precept, maxim, article of faith, canon; More
   creed, credo, set of beliefs, doctrine, ideology
   "a dogma of the Sikh religion"

So are you saying that Bahai does NOT have a set of principles laid down by an authority (in your case Baha'u'llah) that are true. Is it NOT ateaching, a belief, tenets, doctrine. article of faith, etc.

Once again I think you're either contradicting yourself, or changing the meaning of words to suit your opinion. It's like 'pioneers' instead of 'missionaries' or 'spreading, sharing,' instead of proselytizing.

We're talking about 'revealed' truth here not arrogant self assertiveness but the Voice of God speaking through His Chosen Vessel.

There isn't a dictionary definition to cover this fairly. All the definitions fall short of saying Christ taught dogma and attribute dogma to the followers.

Some of the definitions say things like 'arrogant conviction' which is completely false for a Prophet of God Who never chose to become a Prophet. Baha'u'llah spoke against His own wishes. He did not want to be the Voice of God at all. He was chosen and called, a far cry from these dictionary definitions like 'arrogant conviction'

"Think ye, O people, that I hold within My grasp the control of God’s ultimate Will and Purpose?… Had the ultimate destiny of God’s Faith been in Mine hands, I would have never consented, even though for one moment, to manifest Myself unto you, nor would I have allowed one word to fall from My lips. Of this God Himself is, verily, a witness"

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You have a weird way of understanding the word tradition.

Just going by this definition:

a : an inherited, established, or customary pattern of thought, action, or behavior (such as a religious practice or a social custom)b : a belief or story or a body of beliefs or stories relating to the past that are commonly accepted as historical though not verifiable


2: the handing down of information, beliefs, and customs by word of mouth or by example from one generation to another without written instruction


3: cultural continuity in social attitudes, customs, and institutions


4: characteristic manner, method, or style in the best liberal tradition

Summary: Tradition-practices passed down by generation.

Not all traditions are valuable. That's the point. Teachings, laws and traditions for one age may be a remedy but for another may be a poison. Traditions like slavery, holy war, racism and the suppression of women are teachings of bygone ages that are no longer acceptable to the wider world.

Hindu, Christian, Muslim, Zoraster, and Buddhist traditions are valuable. When you take these traditions from these religions, you no longer have a religion. You basically tore the human soul of a Hindu, Christian, and Muslim (etc) just by your vary statement and comparison that traditions are like slavery, holy war, and racism.

Tradition is: Let me know if this is correct but I posted this before. Bahai Tradition.

I would never compare your traditions to racism, slavery, and so forth. That's, um, messed up.

Do you understand that the world is abolishing racism. It was once a cape table for races to be segregated in America. That tradition has been destroyed. You want it kept? Was it good that blacks were oppressed?

You're talking about politics. I'm talking about religion. Religious tradition is valuable. Politics are not always so.

Why are you mixing the two up? That's a huge insult.

I hope not to imagine you go into a Catholic Parish, tell a believer he is praying to bread and wine, tell him how it is the same as slavery, and then put the clause "this is what we believe...you are free to believe whatever you wish."

The Bible says women should not speak or have a say in matters. Today, that's been thrown out the door although it is a part of God's Word. It is no longer relevant. Do we allow Muslims to keep the tradition of holy war once needed to prevent the genicide of Muslims, do we keep this tradition in an age of nuclear weapons?

If you relate religious tradition to wars, I can see your point. Religious tradition/spirituality are embedded.

By saying a Muslim's tradition brings holy wars is saying this his belief in god causes holy wars.

Yet, Muhammad, Christ, and Moses are in your faith. So, what's up with that?

Regardless of what Baha'u'llah says, humanity are throwing out and rejecting some traditions even the people who once were strong upholders of these traditions.

So they are valuable?

Traditions of death by stoning and crucifixion have been mostly abandoned and where not are opposed by all humanity and are on the way out. You say keep them? For what? What use is stoning, slavery, crucifixion, holy war, the oppression of women, apartheid, racism, bigotry in our age? Both the world, the UN and Baha'u'llah all are against these things. These are all part and parcel of things you call 'traditions'.

You're not listening (or reading).

When you go into a Catholic Church, you will see the Eucharist behind the altar. The tradition is to genuflect to Jesus christ with the sign of the cross. This practice has been held for years. Mass even longer than that. Parishes are trying to keep their traditions (practices passed down by generation) because they feel people like Bahai, UU, liberals, etc are diluting their teachings so much that there won't be a Mass (more than one person gathered) anymore.

I guess everyone would be working towards one goal but then that sounds like hidden slavery since you tore out the soul of the person's faith to make them work in charity towards a one-party system.

You trying to tell me these traditions are 'valuable'?. Many religions have stoooee practising their own traditions why? Because times have changed and now they see them as cruel and unneeded in this age.

Ha. You need to get out more. That, or I just see things a bit more positive. I never got that when practicing tradition and I practiced three. Catholicism, Nichiren Shoshu, and SGI. Believe me, tradition cannot be separated or you will be leaving people standing around without a sense of self.

Kind of like taking the Bahai resources out your hand and telling you to forget about him all together. That feeling you just got, that's why tradition is valuable. If you want to keep your teachings, why would you want to change others rather than let them keep theirs? (the positive traditions. If you want to fix wars, consult the people not the traditions)

What about traditions like FGM? It IS a tradition like you say. A valuable one?? I beg to differ and ask for common sense to prevail when we say rtraditions across the board should all be upheld. It doesn't stand up to reason.

FGM??

Please read my posts.

The history of FGM is not well known but the practice dated back at least 2000 years. It is not known when or where the tradition of Female Genital Mutilation originated from. It was believed that it was practised in ancient Egypt as a sign of distinction amongst the aristocracy.

Yeah, please read my posts. Get the context at least.

How many more traditions are harmful? Child slavery. Child prostituion. Child marriage. The beating of wives and children. You accept all these? They have been traditions for centuries.
The world and Baha'u'llah have rejected them. If you see them as ' valuable' then that's your right to believe what you want.

We aren't talking about harmful traditions. We're talking about the ones valuable.

What's wrong with abolishment of slavery, racism, bigotry, discrimination, oppression of women, and many, many more evil traditions??

Tradition, the word itself, is not an evil word. There are many traditions. No one is saying they don't want to end these things. What we are saying is the traditions you are also changing is ones that keep religions and spirituality alive-that love, compassion, etc are shaped by traditions I keep saying again and again.

Are you reading this?

I'm not saying there aren't good innocent traditions that we should love and respect. I'm saying a lot need to be thrown out and are by the UN and other bodies and governments as no longer acceptable in our age.

Let's stick with the traditions that shape love and spirituality. Those are the ones you are throwing out. How? You are literally telling a Hindu and a Christian they will be one religion if they recognize the same god and more so telling a Buddhist that he will someday recognize a god in order to have world peace.

Your logic isn't computing.

Tradition is like medicine. If it is good for the illness ok. But if it makes the patient worse or kills him then it is a poison and some traditions of the past which might have been acceptable like stoning or severe punishments for crimes where there was only desert and no jails or prisons may have been justified then but not today when we have 'corrective facilities' to re educate criminals.

Let's focus on the good traditions. (Although a knife is a knife it's not good or bad in itself)...but, well, that point aside,... the "good" traditions are embedded in a person's faith-their love, their compassion, their quest for unity.

By making all religions one, you are doing the opposite and "killing" religions in the name of your founder's doctrine and dogma.

Try to understand that traditions are not all good or all bad but that we can't give a blank cheque to all of them.

You gave them a blank check and all I said was "traditions". I didn't say good or bad, I just said traditions are embedded in a person's spirituality.

I have no clue where you got war, killing, raping, etc. That's not even in the conversation.

 

[loverofhumanity]

All of this stuff comes right out of Islam. No wonder Baha'u'llah abhorred it. Any sensible person would. It doesn't take some prophet to see the inhumanity in that stuff. Most kids past kindergarten would see it's cruel to stone people.

There were also Jewish things like stoning but at that time His could you contain crime with no jails or prisons? So those times laws were required to be harsh.

In the Bible women are supposed to sit down and shut up, another tradition being rejected today.

Not just Islamic but FGM has been around before Islam.

Slavery was acceptable in some Holy Books so to abolish them they need to be abolished also in a Holy Book. Baha'u'llah officially abolished, slavery, holy war and priesthood and many other traditions not only of Islam. He abolished confession. Confession Ain many instances is covering up and harbouring many criminals and only encourages them to commit more crimes knowing they can get forgiveness and then offend again. These things are unhealthy for our mindset and our society and I believe Baha'u'llah is looking out for us all by abolishing things harmful to us offficially in a religious Holy Book.

 

[Vinayaka]

We're talking about 'revealed' truth here not arrogant self assertiveness but the Voice of God speaking through His Chosen Vessel.

That is precisely what Christians say, Muslims say, etc. It is no different from that. Ask any Christian. They will tell you theirs is a revealed truth.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

All Baha'u'llah's teachings are NOT without grounds.

Some call dogma teachings.
Some call them tenants
Some commandments
Some rules
Some policies
Some guidelines
Some doctrine
Some scripture
Some suttra/sutta
Some Dharma

and the list goes on.

You have very negative bias in your definitions and that is why you cannot understand what I ask you personally.

 

[Vinayaka]

There were also Jewish things like stoning but at that time His could you contain crime with no jails or prisons? So those times laws were required to be harsh.

In the Bible women are supposed to sit down and shut up, another tradition being rejected today.

Not just Islamic but FGM has been around before Islam.

Slavery was acceptable in some Holy Books so to abolish them they need to be abolished also in a Holy Book. Baha'u'llah officially abolished, slavery, holy war and priesthood and many other traditions not only of Islam. He abolished confession. Confession Ain many instances is covering up and harbouring many criminals and only encourages them to commit more crimes knowing they can get forgiveness and then offend again. These things are unhealthy for our mindset and our society and I believe Baha'u'llah is looking out for us all by abolishing things harmful to us offficially in a religious Holy Book.

I agree that Bahai is a step up from more primitive inhumane ideas. The adoption of ahimsa from Hinduism was a smart move.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

There were also Jewish things like stoning but at that time His could you contain crime with no jails or prisons? So those times laws were required to be harsh.

In the Bible women are supposed to sit down and shut up, another tradition being rejected today.

Not just Islamic but FGM has been around before Islam.

Slavery was acceptable in some Holy Books so to abolish them they need to be abolished also in a Holy Book. Baha'u'llah officially abolished, slavery, holy war and priesthood and many other traditions not only of Islam. He abolished confession. Confession Ain many instances is covering up and harbouring many criminals and only encourages them to commit more crimes knowing they can get forgiveness and then offend again. These things are unhealthy for our mindset and our society and I believe Baha'u'llah is looking out for us all by abolishing things harmful to us offficially in a religious Holy Book.

Also, why have Moses and Christ in your faith if you don't respect the Hebrew scriptures they written and quoted from?

You talk down about the bible and its practices, put them in your faith, pick a few out of hundreds of prophets in the Hebrew scriptures, say they support your message of peace without consulting with the people with whom you want peace with.

 

[Vinayaka]

T

Slavery was acceptable in some Holy Books so to abolish them they need to be abolished also in a Holy Book. Baha'u'llah officially abolished, slavery, holy war and priesthood and many other traditions not only of Islam. He abolished confession.

So he made new, more sensible rules. That's called dogma. A different dogma, yes, but still dogma.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@loverofhumanity

I honestly don't see how you are missing this. Your religion has tradition.

" Bahá’u’lláh and His Covenant provides a summary of the origins of the Bahá’í Faith, including brief descriptions of the lives of the Báb, Bahá’u’lláh, ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, and Shoghi Effendi. It also introduces the Universal House of Justice, the institution ordained by Bahá’u’lláh to which the entire Bahá’í community today turns for guidance in the application of the Bahá’í teachings."

!Bahai.org

These are dogma and doctrine.

Dogma and doctrine isn't defined by the source. Aliens could create dogma and doctrine. It's just saying they are tenants, teachings, scripture, Dharma, whatever that are given that followers use as guidelines to follow in their respective faiths.

Your traditions is in your website that describes the origin of Bahai and what they mean and goals are.

Your culture is laid out from many people around the world and the history of how and what you guys have in common is the culture of your faith.

But that does not solve the issue of using putting all religions into one. I don't see how you see no problem in this.

 

[loverofhumanity]

You have a weird way of understanding the word tradition.

Just going by this definition:


Summary: Tradition-practices passed down by generation.



Hindu, Christian, Muslim, Zoraster, and Buddhist traditions are valuable. When you take these traditions from these religions, you no longer have a religion. You basically tore the human soul of a Hindu, Christian, and Muslim (etc) just by your vary statement and comparison that traditions are like slavery, holy war, and racism.

Tradition is: Let me know if this is correct but I posted this before. Bahai Tradition.

I would never compare your traditions to racism, slavery, and so forth. That's, um, messed up.



You're talking about politics. I'm talking about religion. Religious tradition is valuable. Politics are not always so.

Why are you mixing the two up? That's a huge insult.

I hope not to imagine you go into a Catholic Parish, tell a believer he is praying to bread and wine, tell him how it is the same as slavery, and then put the clause "this is what we believe...you are free to believe whatever you wish."



If you relate religious tradition to wars, I can see your point. Religious tradition/spirituality are embedded.

By saying a Muslim's tradition brings holy wars is saying this his belief in god causes holy wars.

Yet, Muhammad, Christ, and Moses are in your faith. So, what's up with that?



So they are valuable?



You're not listening (or reading).

When you go into a Catholic Church, you will see the Eucharist behind the altar. The tradition is to genuflect to Jesus christ with the sign of the cross. This practice has been held for years. Mass even longer than that. Parishes are trying to keep their traditions (practices passed down by generation) because they feel people like Bahai, UU, liberals, etc are diluting their teachings so much that there won't be a Mass (more than one person gathered) anymore.

I guess everyone would be working towards one goal but then that sounds like hidden slavery since you tore out the soul of the person's faith to make them work in charity towards a one-party system.



Ha. You need to get out more. That, or I just see things a bit more positive. I never got that when practicing tradition and I practiced three. Catholicism, Nichiren Shoshu, and SGI. Believe me, tradition cannot be separated or you will be leaving people standing around without a sense of self.

Kind of like taking the Bahai resources out your hand and telling you to forget about him all together. That feeling you just got, that's why tradition is valuable. If you want to keep your teachings, why would you want to change others rather than let them keep theirs? (the positive traditions. If you want to fix wars, consult the people not the traditions)



FGM??

Please read my posts.



Yeah, please read my posts. Get the context at least.



We aren't talking about harmful traditions. We're talking about the ones valuable.



Tradition, the word itself, is not an evil word. There are many traditions. No one is saying they don't want to end these things. What we are saying is the traditions you are also changing is ones that keep religions and spirituality alive-that love, compassion, etc are shaped by traditions I keep saying again and again.

Are you reading this?



Let's stick with the traditions that shape love and spirituality. Those are the ones you are throwing out. How? You are literally telling a Hindu and a Christian they will be one religion if they recognize the same god and more so telling a Buddhist that he will someday recognize a god in order to have world peace.

Your logic isn't computing.



Let's focus on the good traditions. (Although a knife is a knife it's not good or bad in itself)...but, well, that point aside,... the "good" traditions are embedded in a person's faith-their love, their compassion, their quest for unity.

By making all religions one, you are doing the opposite and "killing" religions in the name of your founder's doctrine and dogma.

You gave them a blank check and all I said was "traditions". I didn't say good or bad, I just said traditions are embedded in a person's spirituality.

I have no clue where you got war, killing, raping, etc. That's not even in the conversation.

I mentioned that there are good traditions and bad ones, you just said traditions without clarifying and we need to distinguish between good and bad traditions which I tried to do and I said we should keep the good ones so I am not against tradition only harmful ones which I gave some examples of which are embedded in the Holy Books of the past and were required at that time. Harsh penalties for crime were because there were no jails over prisons so examples had to be made to deter crime.

Good traditions such as love and spirituality we uphold and defend. As I said, you just said traditions which to me included the bad ones too. You didn't say only good traditions because if yuh said that I could agree in a second with you that we should support and uphold all the good traditions of the past.

So without distinguishing clearly between good and bad traditions why are you assuming I am against all traditions?

How will all religions become one Faith. One day maybe 600 years from now, people will have gradually come to know Who Baha'u'llah really is and it will be a no brainier He is their Promised One.

When Buddhist realise that He is Amitabhe and Maitreya then they will accept that Buddha originally taught there was a God but that the teachings was replaced and lost.

When the religions come to know Who Baha'u'llah is they will accept His Authority and laws. It may take 600-800 years but we believe it will happen but it will be through the choice of the other religions nothing else.

In the future when Catholics en masses become Baha'is they themselves will abandon mass. They will see no need for it. It's for them to decide if they want to be Baha'is and give up mass etc. we let them alone to believe how they'd wish and love them just the same.

I didn't tear the soul out of anything. I just said there are traditions which were of use in the past which humanity is discarding now.

As I said it will be the people's choice to become one in Faith not the Baha'is.

When the victory arriveth, every man shall profess himself as believer and shall hasten to the shelter of God’s Faith. Happy are they who in the days of world-encompassing trials have stood fast in the Cause and refused to swerve from its truth. - Bahaullah

The entire world is going to embrace this Cause voluntarily

No ones killing religions. They have already killed themselves. Where is their unity and peace? They are split into thousands of confusing sects. Tell me, did the Baha'is do this? Who split Christianity into over 40,00 sects, us Baha'is or Bahaullah Who hadn't even been born yet?

Who ripped each religion apart Abdul-Bahá'?

You guys did this to yourselves through selfish ambitious leaders and now Baha'u'llah comes along and wants to bring you guys together. You have fought the Crusades, had the Inquisitiin and now accuse us of killing you? Ha!

Judging by history, if anyone has been killing these religions it's been the believers themselves not Baha'is.

Read history how Christian fought and killed Christian and how religious wars between religions have broken out and continue to this day.

Mullas Order suicide bombers to go and kill, Buddhist monks in Burma incite Buddhists to burn homes of Rohinga. Christian nations are bombing Muslim nations. Baha'is fault I suppose.

You know clearly that we are intent on stoooing these atrocities and history proves that believers have discredited and been killing their own religion not the Baha'is.

This is a debating forum but I have nothing but reference and respect when I go into any church as I feel the presence of God in a Catholic Church, a Synagogue or a Buddhist temple. I love them all.

We are only openly discussing and debating but I see God and beauty in all religions. Whatever is good and true in organism, that is in my heart too.

I only am against injustices and evil but whatever is good and helpful for humanity no matter monotheistic or otherwise which serve humanity is cherished very deeply by me.

My lack of eloquence betrays me. You don't know just how much I adore diversity and good tradition more than you can imagine but I am bad at getting that across so you may think I'm some monster out to destroy. Nothing could be furtyer from the truth.

If only I could meet you, you would see that's not the case but my words are very poor translations of what is in my heart.

I love, treasure and cherish as my own belief, every good tradition which serves the common good and I love all religions which teach good.

Regardless I am a Baha'i I see you and everyone here as better and more knowledgeable than myself. Looking past our debates I see only beautiful people here.

I really appreciate you all putting up with my 'rankings and ravings' for so long!!! Please don't ever think I'm not learning from you. I see truth in many things you say so please don't ever assume the worst.

I struggle with my own ignorance and lack of eloquence so this would be why I'm so difficult to communcate with.

 

[loverofhumanity]

So he made new, more sensible rules. That's called dogma. A different dogma, yes, but still dogma.

This is either blackmail or 'white mail'. Or should I call it 'sweet and sour' dialogue?as I said you sometimes say brilliant things and I stand by that. But I love you reply!!

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I can't quote you all. Since we are talking about religion, I assumed religious traditions. To me, if religious traditions do not bring out the positive in someone, they are not the religious traditions I'm referring to. Again and again, I keep saying that spirituality and love are embedded in traditions. That alone should tell you I am not talking about wars, rapes, and killing.

Good traditions such as love and spirituality we uphold and defend. As I said, you just said traditions which to me included the bad ones too. You didn't say only good traditions because if yuh said that I could agree in a second with you that we should support and uphold all the good traditions of the past.

Love and spirituality are beliefs that come from traditions.

You are not defending love as a tradition because you are constantly trying to make a Christian's source the same as a Hindu source. As long as you continue to do that, you are not upholding or defending other people's love and spirituality.

It is not because you do not want to. It's that you have so much negative bias over other people's traditions and mixing politics and spirituality that to see anything positive in traditions today is near but none.

My whole point is to get you to understand how the unity you are describing isn't possible unless you have the agreement of people who are not Bahais. But if you are telling others that they will "one day be awakened to god" that is not unity.​

So without distinguishing clearly between good and bad traditions why are you assuming I am against all traditions?

I've said that traditions are embedded in spirituality-the love and compassion. You keep saying that traditions are wars, racism, and such. I never mentioned any of these things, so why would you be talking about a definition of tradition I never even brought up?

So I gave you definitions of tradition and for some reason you still see it negative. Same as dogma and doctrine. I don't get it.

How will all religions become one Faith. One day maybe 600 years from now, people will have gradually come to know Who Baha'u'llah really is and it will be a no brainier He is their Promised One.

This is not unity among diversity. It is not world peace. It is exactly what Catholics did.

I don't see why you are missing this.

When Buddhist realise that He is Amitabhe and Maitreya then they will accept that Buddha originally taught there was a God but that the teachings was replaced and lost.

There are thousands of Buddhas. In Mahayana alone, there are thousands that will come and many bodhisattvas already here aspiring to help us to be buddhas in this life. You are separating The Buddha and his incarnations as if he is great and it isn't about The Buddha, Amita (which is completely off), and Maitreya at all but the Dharma. Anyway, just like Hinduism, you have to know it from the Buddhist eyes not your own.

When the religions come to know Who Baha'u'llah is they will accept His Authority and laws. It may take 600-800 years but we believe it will happen but it will be through the choice of the other religions nothing else.

This is not unity among diversity.

In the future when Catholics en masses become Baha'is they themselves will abandon mass. They will see no need for it. It's for them to decide if they want to be Baha'is and give up mass etc. we let them alone to believe how they'd wish and love them just the same.

This is not unity among diversity

I didn't tear the soul out of anything. I just said there are traditions which were of use in the past which humanity is discarding now.

You just did above. You don't need to discard good traditions like the Eucharist and the Gohonzon etc. These aren't "old" teachings. They have been passed down and preserved or a reason. Followers don't want their traditions to die out because their traditions are embedded in their spirituality. They are one.

Do you understand what you are doing?

As I said it will be the people's choice to become one in Faith not the Baha'is.

This contradicts your statements above. If that's true, there does not need to be one-religion under Bahallah's teachings.

When the victory arriveth, every man shall profess himself as believer and shall hasten to the shelter of God’s Faith. Happy are they who in the days of world-encompassing trials have stood fast in the Cause and refused to swerve from its truth. - Bahaullah

Remember, diversity means respecting other religions at their differing foundations. It also means if you want to bring unity to world kind, god is not included at all.

Take out Bahullah's words. He cannot bring peace and unity with people who disagree with him. If that is his goal, he should take a different approach and talk with the people themselves rather than disregard their traditions.

The entire world is going to embrace this Cause voluntarily

Another way of saying "one day the world would be like us"

No ones killing religions. They have already killed themselves. Where is their unity and peace? They are split into thousands of confusing sects. Tell me, did the Baha'is do this? Who split Christianity into over 40,00 sects, us Baha'is or Bahaullah Who hadn't even been born yet?

Sometimes words hurt more than being hit. Your belief system, just going by your posts only, kills the nature of a Hindu, Christian, and Buddhist belief system. Of course all of you want to end war, but not by disregarding their traditions in doing so as if what they believe is old and you have something better. Why you, anyhow? Buddhist don't believe in god, so they'd be wondering where you're going to do to fix the problem if you aren't using your mind (not god's word) to do it.

Who ripped each religion apart Abdul-Bahá'?

Who?

You guys did this to yourselves through selfish ambitious leaders and now Baha'u'llah comes along and wants to bring you guys together. You have fought the Crusades, had the Inquisitiin and now accuse us of killing you? Ha!

Your prejudicism coming out. All I said was traditions are embedded in spirituality. People value their traditions. When you take away their traditions, you take away their religion. That is tearing the heart out of the person.

If you keep good traditions in, they contradict each other. You don't understand how they do. We keep telling you how but you are not comfortable (or read) our reasons and learn from them or even take interest in learning from them.

Judging by history, if anyone has been killing these religions it's been the believers themselves not Baha'is.

That's why you don't judge by their history or what's on the news. If you want to understand Christian truth, convert to christianity body, heart, and soul. If you want to understand Hindu truth, follow Hindu teachings. Don't do it all at once. They conflict. Take interest in other people's faiths. Not just knowledge but their experience as well.

Read history how Christian fought and killed Christian and how religious wars between religions have broken out and continue to this day.

Lover, history does not define a person's relationship with christ. If i went off of history, I'd be wondering why you believe in god in the first place.

You know clearly that we are intent on stoooing these atrocities and history proves that believers have discredited and been killing their own religion not the Baha'is.

Bahai don't need to pick up a murder weapon to kill someone's heart by taking their traditions.

I rather someone pinch me and say they are sorry than keep calling me names and say "but this is my belief and you can believe how you will, but what I say comes from god."

But instead of repeating myself, I asked you questions and didn't get answers. If you can reply to a long discussion post, why cant you instead, reply to the questions. They are sectioned out evenly and they are straight to the point.

As long as you don't go around the bush before an answer is given.

My question to you was, if we have the same truth, what is my truth.

You have yet to answer this. Mystical experiences aren't truth and I don't have these experiences.

 

[CG Didymus]

Not all traditions are valuable. That's the point. Teachings, laws and traditions for one age may be a remedy but for another may be a poison...

Regardless of what Baha'u'llah says, humanity are throwing out and rejecting some traditions even the people who once were strong upholders of these traditions.

...Traditions of death by stoning ...

Do Baha'is believe in capital punishment? If so, what is God's way of doing the deed? 'Cause stoning was his method that he told to Moses. So did God change his mind?

So let's talk about traditions, religious traditions. Where did they come from? We're they based on the teachings of the manifestation? Or, were they made up by religious leaders? And, if they are going to make up traditions, why not the whole religion and the story about the manifestation himself? Or, something more common, supposedly an angel told a man a story and a great religion grew out of the book he wrote?

Another related thing is that in other posts the Baha'i position seems to be one of encouraging cultural diversity, but how is the culture of a people separate from it's religion and it's traditions?

 

[CG Didymus]

When Buddhist realise that He is Amitabhe and Maitreya then they will accept that Buddha originally taught there was a God but that the teachings was replaced and lost.

...The entire world is going to embrace this Cause voluntarily..

...You don't know just how much I adore diversity and good tradition more than you can imagine...

Replaced and lost? Hmmm? He came out of a culture that had many gods, believed in reincarnation, had a tradition of sitting still for hours meditating? Sure, I see how what he taught must have been exactly like the Baha'i Faith, originally. Too bad it got lost somewhere.

Okay, you know how you guys been talking about dogma, well, so far nobody's brought up the sexual teachings of the Baha'i Faith. I live near San Francisco and there is a cultural thing that's big over there. Those people, you know who I'm talking about, have been in the closet for years. Traditionally religion has been the one to put them down. And the Baha'i Faith will keep that tradition.

So why does God hate gays? Will the Baha'is be dogmatic about Baha'u'llah's teaching that forbids being gay? Hmmm? If a person is gay... how do you forbid them from being who they are? Oh well, I'm glad I'm not the one that has to support that dogma.

 

[loverofhumanity]

That is precisely what Christians say, Muslims say, etc. It is no different from that. Ask any Christian. They will tell you theirs is a revealed truth.

We fully agree with them that the Bible and the Quran is the revealed Word of God.

 

[Esoqq]

The only thing I disagree about this is the generalization that there is a divine source in everyone and that The Buddha's enlightenment somehow mirrors or is this divine source. Enlightenment is a fancy word for understanding rebirth. Rebirth is fancy for understanding kamma. Kamma is fancy for laws of cause and affect.

Life is a verb rather than a noun (person/place/thing). It is in constant motion from the energy, heat, and so forth to our emotions and personality some call spirit.

Enlightenment is the understanding of this. It is wisdom it isn't "compassion, love, and unity." That's the benefits of understanding.

In my opinion, there are no "great" beings. Once I make someone greater or lesser than me, it throws me off balance. It's being a hypocrite and that ego-thinking is what The Buddha spoke against.

Why does the divine spark have to be divine? What is keeping god-believers being one with everything rather than in submission to it?

Things like that I think about.

The only thing I disagree about this is the generalization that there is a divine source in everyone and that The Buddha's enlightenment somehow mirrors or is this divine source. Enlightenment is a fancy word for understanding rebirth. Rebirth is fancy for understanding kamma. Kamma is fancy for laws of cause and affect.

Life is a verb rather than a noun (person/place/thing). It is in constant motion from the energy, heat, and so forth to our emotions and personality some call spirit.

Enlightenment is the understanding of this. It is wisdom it isn't "compassion, love, and unity." That's the benefits of understanding.

In my opinion, there are no "great" beings. Once I make someone greater or lesser than me, it throws me off balance. It's being a hypocrite and that ego-thinking is what The Buddha spoke against.

Why does the divine spark have to be divine? What is keeping god-believers being one with everything rather than in submission to it?

Things like that I think about.

This is where it gets sticky. I have had spiritual experiences that were so powerful, so intense that I simply can not deny them or the things I've learned from them. There are many things I know to be true, but I'm also wise enough to know that what I learned there can't be translated into any human language because of the limitation our minds have.
To be fair though, Before I had these experiences I was an agnostic leaning towards Atheism and only by having my first experience did my perspective on life change.
As to the Buddha, enlightenment as I was using the word means a spiritual awakening,
One final item. My faith is mine and mine alone, I align myself with the Baha'i faith because it agrees with what I already know to be true. There are areas that I disagree with but I consider them unimportant when viewed in the context of what the faith stands for and is trying to accomplish.

 

[Esoqq]

The only thing I disagree about this is the generalization that there is a divine source in everyone and that The Buddha's enlightenment somehow mirrors or is this divine source. Enlightenment is a fancy word for understanding rebirth. Rebirth is fancy for understanding kamma. Kamma is fancy for laws of cause and affect.

Life is a verb rather than a noun (person/place/thing). It is in constant motion from the energy, heat, and so forth to our emotions and personality some call spirit.

Enlightenment is the understanding of this. It is wisdom it isn't "compassion, love, and unity." That's the benefits of understanding.

In my opinion, there are no "great" beings. Once I make someone greater or lesser than me, it throws me off balance. It's being a hypocrite and that ego-thinking is what The Buddha spoke against.

Why does the divine spark have to be divine? What is keeping god-believers being one with everything rather than in submission to it?

Things like that I think about.

The only thing I disagree about this is the generalization that there is a divine source in everyone and that The Buddha's enlightenment somehow mirrors or is this divine source. Enlightenment is a fancy word for understanding rebirth. Rebirth is fancy for understanding kamma. Kamma is fancy for laws of cause and affect.

Life is a verb rather than a noun (person/place/thing). It is in constant motion from the energy, heat, and so forth to our emotions and personality some call spirit.

Enlightenment is the understanding of this. It is wisdom it isn't "compassion, love, and unity." That's the benefits of understanding.

In my opinion, there are no "great" beings. Once I make someone greater or lesser than me, it throws me off balance. It's being a hypocrite and that ego-thinking is what The Buddha spoke against.

Why does the divine spark have to be divine? What is keeping god-believers being one with everything rather than in submission to it?

Things like that I think about.

This is where it gets sticky. I have had spiritual experiences that were so powerful, so intense that I simply can not deny them or the things I've learned from them. There are many things I know to be true, but I'm also wise enough to know that what I learned there can't be translated into any human language because of the limitation our minds have.
To be fair though, Before I had these experiences I was an agnostic leaning towards Atheism and only by having my first experience did my perspective on life change.
As to the Buddha, enlightenment as I was using the word means a spiritual awakening,
One final item. My faith is mine and mine alone, I align myself with the Baha'i faith because it agrees with what I already know to be true. There are areas that I disagree with but I consider them unimportant when viewed in the context of what the faith stands for and is trying to accomplish.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Replaced and lost? Hmmm? He came out of a culture that had many gods, believed in reincarnation, had a tradition of sitting still for hours meditating? Sure, I see how what he taught must have been exactly like the Baha'i Faith, originally. Too bad it got lost somewhere.

Okay, you know how you guys been talking about dogma, well, so far nobody's brought up the sexual teachings of the Baha'i Faith. I live near San Francisco and there is a cultural thing that's big over there. Those people, you know who I'm talking about, have been in the closet for years. Traditionally religion has been the one to put them down. And the Baha'i Faith will keep that tradition.

So why does God hate gays? Will the Baha'is be dogmatic about Baha'u'llah's teaching that forbids being gay? Hmmm? If a person is gay... how do you forbid them from being who they are? Oh well, I'm glad I'm not the one that has to support that dogma.

I don't understand. Hate who? Oh you mean FELLOW HUMAN BEINGS". They are a part of the family of humanity. Everybody in this world is a person with a heart that can be hurt and we try not to hurt or harm anyone or allow ourselves to judge anyone but our own selves, our own mistakes.

To me, everyone is human first, human middle and human last.
I abhor, detest and it sickens me that such beautiful people have been so oppressed and mistreated for so long.

Our laws only permit marriage between a man and a woman but that doesn't give us a carte blanch to hate anyone because of their sexual preferences or to discriminate against them.

We Baha'is are instructed to love all humanity unconditionally. I don't know every Baha'i in the world but they were the FIRST people who took me into their home after my 6th suicide attempt and I owe them my life for giving me unconditional acceptance.

I don't like using any labels for people who have different sexual orientations as they are my fellow human beings and that's how I always want to see them.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I said you know much more than me and are far more eloquent.

The difference is to me is that God reveals truth. Man creates dogma.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Also, why have Moses and Christ in your faith if you don't respect the Hebrew scriptures they written and quoted from?

You talk down about the bible and its practices, put them in your faith, pick a few out of hundreds of prophets in the Hebrew scriptures, say they support your message of peace without consulting with the people with whom you want peace with.

The traditions and laws in the Bible, many of them, are no longer applied by the followers. Why? They themselves acknowledge that times have changed and the old laws have become out of date.

However things like the Ten Commandments we uphold.

Ask the Jews why they no longer stone people for adultery.

These were examples use of out of date traditions that should no longer be accepted. My argument was that not all traditions can be kept.

It's common sense that traditions which are good are worthy of being kept.