How are these Great Beings explained?

[loverofhumanity]

Hmmm? Okay then... How specifically did each manifestation build on the previous one? If the official Baha'i belief includes Adam, Noah and Abraham then include them too. So which ever goes first, state what they taught, then go to the next and show how they built on the teachings of the previous one.

This PDF goes into most of the Manifestations.

Noah is mentioned in the Book of Certitude by Baha'u'llah.

Adam is mentioned by the Bab as founding a religion.

“For had the embryo not existed, how could he have reached his present state? Likewise had the religion taught by Adam not existed, this Faith would not have attained its present state....”

The Bab

 

[Esoqq]

Ooh gosh!

Ive always been relunctant to even call myself pagan just by coming on to this site alone. But if someone asked "what do pagans believe" Id probably laugh. Not out loud. We believe a whole bunch of, um, stuff, that even Pagans on RF dont want to talk about their pagan beliefs outside of academics and little p and big P.

A lot of genelizations going on.

Since Bahai can be more than one religion, its hard to know what Bahai believe without the mixture of other faiths. Id like to see you talk with a bahai hindu. That would be an interesting conversation.

I think that is an incredible idea, I'd love to listen to a religious discussion between a Hindu Baha'i, a Moslem Baha'i, a Christian Baha'i, a Hebrew Beha'i, a Buddhist Baha'i etc.

 

[Vinayaka]

Effendi)

We don't know all the dates. All we know is that there were always Manifestations.

I think that it would go a lot better if you started these kinds of statements with 'The Bahai belief is" rather than 'we know' . "We Know" just comes across as condescending and rude, a fundamentalist, 'I'm right, and you're wrong,' sort of attitude.

Just a suggestion, for better dialogue.

 

[Esoqq]

Not according to archeology, but according to Snorri Sturlsson in his Prose Eddas. Woden is also the Germanic god typically paired to Odin - akin to Zeus and Jupiter.

According to an article I read in Archeology Today several years ago evidence was found supporting the existence of Woden. That's what I was referring too.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Got a link?

 

[Esoqq]

Yeah, another Baha'i to join the fun. Now for some questions for you. You say "revealed" religions: could you define that? Especially focusing how the "revealed" religions differ from the others.

Since it is often brought up, Hinduism was not founded by anyone but still gets attributed to Krishna. So where did it come from? Why does it change? Was it tied to the culture and the way India was governed? Not only in Hinduism, but in other religions that had a major influence on the governing of the people, how and why has that changed? 'Cause it seems like ancient religions were everything to the people. Rulers, priests, daily life, everything was part of the religion wasn't it?

Then, something changed. Questioning and doubting... seeing that religious rules weren't just and equal to all people. So what I'm thinking is that ancient religions were more a construct of some people to maintain and control and keep order in their societies. Since I don't think the Baha'is believe in a "Rain God" or "War God" etc, then where did these concepts come from? I'm thinking people... That early religion was invented by people... not "revealed" by a manifestation.

Like I've been saying some religions have animal sacrifices, some even human sacrifices, which manifestation authorized that? As unbelievable to me, it was the supposed "True" God. He told his people to sacrifice animals.

Some manifestations are so wrapped up in myth and legend that it is hard to believe they ever even existed... and that includes Jesus. And what's more hard to swallow, God is invisible. Where is he? He walked and spoke in the Bible. Why not now?

So what do we got? Different religions, with different stories and beliefs and you, the Baha'i, saying that all this is from one God and is part of a systematic progression. Good luck. It would have been much easier to say that all the religions are wrong and that a new messenger from the true God has come to set things straight. Wait, that is, in essence, what you are saying.

The Baha'i loop holes: Original teachings and words of the manifestations are what is true. Except where are they, and what were they? The leaders of the religion misinterpreted those "original" teachings. They took symbolic things as literal. So none of the religions, as practiced today, are true. They are all wrong. And you, the Baha'is have the real truth from God. Except you do, somehow, believe and see the truth in all religions?

What is that truth? The love of God and to love one another? That is so Abrahamic. And even in the Abrahamic religions, they killed other people for having false gods. Where's the love? But the big point is... there was such a thing as a false religion, not all were true.

Anyway, so glad you're here and joined the conversation.

My understanding of what makes a revealed religion is the belief that the founder of that religion is in direct contact with a divine presence. I believe that Buddhism also qualifies since the Buddha appears to have encountered something unusual when he was sitting under the Bodhi Tree.
I agree with most of what you wrote and both as a Baha'i and as an independent researcher I think I have an answer for you.
Humanity is evolving. We're evolving physically, intellectually and spiritually. As we evolve we're gain in our ability to understand things that which we were incapable of comprehending previously.
When a manifestation appears their ability to teach is directly related to our ability to learn and that is influenced by our life experiences, (Here I'm expressing my personal belief, not Baha'i teachings,) and that includes the messengers life experiences. This is why Jesus's focus was on reforming Judaism and Baha'u'llah's teachings focused so much on Islam.

 

[loverofhumanity]

="Carlita, post: 5137972, member: 55631"]1. I know you believe divinely revealed religions comes from the same root.

My posts are asking you.

Do you understand that a Hindu (with whom Krishna comes from, Hinduism) roots is not the same at all with any other revealed religion?

Krishna we believe was a Divine Manifestation Who brought a religion. I cannot speak for other sects of Hinduism which do not accept Krishna.

Do you understand that the traditions, culture, and language of christ (another revealed person) in his time does not speak of the same root and not of the same root as a Hindu, Buddhist, or god, person, or prophet outside of scripture?

We understand that all the Manifestations are one. Christ brought different teachings as all Manifestations do but their one same aim is to educate the souls and spirits of men. Their message is meant for their age which could be from 500-1,000 years until another Teacher comes.

Do you understand that these revealed religious are telling you their religions are not the same at the core?

You are telling me that but many others have told me the opposite. Many people believe we all believe in basically the same things just expressed differently.​

They are surface level. Of course, people want peace, love, and all of that but don't you understand

That if you are putting off the doctrine/dogma of these revealed religions, you are not respecting these religions because their TLC IS their spirituality.

They are completely free to practice their own dogmas and doctrines. We are Baha'is so we are not bound to the dogmas and traditions of other religions just as they are not bound by our laws and teachings.

This is your belief but do you understand that if you want to make one-truth of humanity, it must include more than five or six religions?

It will take centuries for all religions to become one religion.

Are you taking interest to understand who Krishna, Christ, Muhammad, Zoarastar, and The Buddha actually are and how they see your religion, how their views of their own religion in their sacred text and their followers contradict with what you are telling them about them?

Krishna, Christ, Muhammad, Zoroaster and Buddha all fully and unequivocally endorse Baha'u'llah and wish They could return to serve Him.

There is absolutely no contradiction in our minds.

The followers of these Faiths have so far rejected the return of their Founder and by doing so, we believe, have rejected their own Founder and now instead only follow their own man made doctrines.​

Not just from their text but from their followers who identify as soley of their religions as well?

The followers are not the authority. The texts are.

Do you understand that if you are asking for unity among people of various faiths you have to accept there is no Promise one and there is no yet?[/QUOTE]

Every Holy Book prophecies the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

That's like my saying, I believe that Bahaullah, Krishna, and Yamaya came at different type periods and they said you, as a Bahai, have yet to believe the words of these different prophets have to say via the words of Muhammad?

Can you see anything conflicting about this idea or concept that I just said?

Your grammar is a bit confusing?

It's all or none. By rejecting any one of the Teachers or Manifestations we are also rejecting our own Teacher.

This is exactly why world peace cannot happen. Bahaullah, The Church, and Muslims to name a few do not respect the traditions of other people. This is what builds wars and such.

God sent Baha'u'llah as the Judge, the Lawgiver, the Unifier and Redeemer of mankind. He is invested with authority from God and is well able to unite humanity.

Again, you are not discussing and have interest to learn about why traditions are important to the revealed religions you are changing just by this post alone.

Do you understand their point of view?

Yes, I understand fully. They are free to believe whatever they like. That us their right just as it is ours.

Who gave him the right to do this if you are seeking unity among other faiths?

"I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing. And He bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven, and for this there befell Me what hath caused the tears of every man of understanding to flow. The learning current amongst men I studied not; their schools I entered not. Ask of the city wherein I dwelt, that thou mayest be well assured that I am not of them who speak falsely."

Baha'u'llah

The issue is:

Your belief says peace among diversity

but you can't have that at all with anything you just wrote in this post.

It's black and white.

It will take time but peace is inevitable nothing is impossible if you have faith.

 

[Vinayaka]

Krishna we believe was a Divine Manifestation Who brought a religion. I cannot speak for other sects if Hinduism which do not accept Krishna.

​

Correction: Even pure Vaishnavites who do accept Krishna view Him as God, not as a manifestation. He did not 'bring' the religion' according to Vaishnavite Hindus.​

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Krishna we believe was a Divine Manifestation Who brought a religion. I cannot speak for other sects of Hinduism which do not accept Krishna.



We understand that all the Manifestations are one. Christ brought different teachings as all Manifestations do but their one same aim is to educate the souls and spirits of men. Their message is meant for their age which could be from 500-1,000 years until another Teacher comes.



You are telling me that but many others have told me the opposite. Many people believe we all believe in basically the same things just expressed differently.​

They are completely free to practice their own dogmas and doctrines. We are Baha'is so we are not bound to the dogmas and traditions of other religions just as they are not bound by our laws and teachings.



It will take centuries for all religions to become one religion.

Krishna, Christ, Muhammad, Zoroaster and Buddha all fully and unequivocally endorse Baha'u'llah and wish They could return to serve Him.

There is absolutely no contradiction in our minds.

The followers of these Faiths have so far rejected the return of their Founder and by doing so, we believe, have rejected their own Founder and now instead only follow their own man made doctrines.​

The followers are not the authority. The texts are.

​

Take out Bahaullah, Bahai, etc.


Do you understand that traditions, culture, and language IS the sprirituality of Hindu, Buddhist, Christians, and Muslims and to separate their TLC is to separate their spirituality?

Also, you said Bahaullah will abaolis

Krishna we believe was a Divine Manifestation Who brought a religion. I cannot speak for other sects of Hinduism which do not accept Krishna.



We understand that all the Manifestations are one. Christ brought different teachings as all Manifestations do but their one same aim is to educate the souls and spirits of men. Their message is meant for their age which could be from 500-1,000 years until another Teacher comes.



You are telling me that but many others have told me the opposite. Many people believe we all believe in basically the same things just expressed differently.​

They are completely free to practice their own dogmas and doctrines. We are Baha'is so we are not bound to the dogmas and traditions of other religions just as they are not bound by our laws and teachings.



It will take centuries for all religions to become one religion.

Krishna, Christ, Muhammad, Zoroaster and Buddha all fully and unequivocally endorse Baha'u'llah and wish They could return to serve Him.

There is absolutely no contradiction in our minds.

The followers of these Faiths have so far rejected the return of their Founder and by doing so, we believe, have rejected their own Founder and now instead only follow their own man made doctrines.​

The followers are not the authority. The texts are.

​

You have to edit your last post. I can't quote it and it's mixing what Im saying with yours.

 

[Kelly Chilson]

How do we explain these Great Beings: Buddha, Moses, Krishna, Christ, Zoroaster, Muhammad, the Bab & Bahaullah? They are somewhat unique and unparalleled in human history and were clearly not ordinary people.

There are famous people in history, famous artists, musicians and scientists but none can compare to the influence of the Educator, Teacher, Messiah or Prophet.

But Who were they? And why were they and still are so influential throughout history? Why did they inspire civilizations? Why have their scriptures become patterns of life followed daily by billions of people for thousands of years?

What gift did they possess to be able to be persecuted, oppressed, tortured, exiled and crucified by the most despotic and powerful leaders of their age with but a handful of followers and yet eventually triumph over adversity and establish Their Cause all over the world?

Statues, Churches, Temples, Pagodas, Mosques and Synagogues are built all over the world to pay tribute to these Great Souls.

Are they from another world? Did they pre exist? Without a special power how could they have accomplished what they did and who is their equal in influence?

And aren't we in dire need of another Great Spiritual Teacher to revive us spiritually?

Hey there!

I certainly hope I am wrong, but it seems as though someone with the influence to persuade a Country like Gandhi did, would have their voice muffled in this current world of inequity. I think Mother Theresa would have been the last. Although I really like the new Pope, he seems to be a great champion of People. I hope and have faith that if someone worthy would come along with a Holy message that they would be able to be heard.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Correction: Even pure Vaishnavites who do accept Krishna view Him as God, not as a manifestation. He did not 'bring' the religion' according to Vaishnavite Hindus.​

I was just stating to Carlita what we believe which is based on the Bhagavad -Gita. He does speak in the person of God. We believe that is the voice of God speaking through Him. In that sense we can say He is God. He says when religion decays He comes to renew religion. We understand that as bringing a new religion not Hinduism again.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Take out Bahaullah, Bahai, etc.


Do you understand that traditions, culture, and language IS the sprirituality of Hindu, Buddhist, Christians, and Muslims and to separate their TLC is to separate their spirituality?

Also, you said Bahaullah will abaolis


You have to edit your last post. I can't quote it and it's mixing what Im saying with yours.

Sorry about that it was long and I tried to edit the last bit but it wouldn't save my editing. Not sure what to do about that.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Hey there!

I certainly hope I am wrong, but it seems as though someone with the influence to persuade a Country like Gandhi did, would have their voice muffled in this current world of inequity. I think Mother Theresa would have been the last. Although I really like the new Pope, he seems to be a great champion of People. I hope and have faith that if someone worthy would come along with a Holy message that they would be able to be heard.

Hi Kelly. welcome. You're a Mormon. My wife and I loved having the Mormons visit but they haven't been around for many years now.

 

[Vinayaka]

I was just stating to Carlita what we believe which is based on the Bhagavad -Gita. He does speak in the person of God. We believe that is the voice of God speaking through Him. In that sense we can say He is God. He says when religion decays He comes to renew religion. We understand that as bringing a new religion not Hinduism again.

So you believe in the entire Bhagavad Gita, or just a couple of verses that can be misinterpeted to suit the Bahai agenda?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I do not mean to be rude but I have to laugh. Okay. Two questions.

You answer it as a Bahai. @adrian009 for example is Christian, so he sees it different than you. @arthra as well. So....

Just you as a Bahai and no one else...

You are telling me that but many others have told me the opposite. Many people believe we all believe in basically the same things just expressed differently.

If I went off what you said, I am a (or a mind of a) Catholic, Nichiren Buddhist, Zen, Southern Baptist, Presbyterian, Pentecostal, Pagan, New Age, Witch, pagan, Muslim, SGI, and I'll throw in Hindu since I been to their temple, talked with them, and share the same level of respect from my practices in Buddhism, so I'll throw that in too.

Loverofhumanity: Expression is spirituality​

I can't make it any more simple than that.

Unless you have been around many new age Hindu practitioners, most religions, Catholics included, will not turn you away from their Church, temple, or mosque and they do have boundaries on who is who not based on just believe but traditions and initiations.

The followers are not the authority. The texts are.

The text are written by followers.

Apostles wrote the gospels
Moses wrote the Torah
The Buddha suttras was written by his disciples
The only one you're getting off completely is Hinduism. If I were Hindu, I'd be, well, pretty mad, for lack of better words.

You must listen to the followers.

Ooh, another contradiction.

"You are telling me that but many others have told me the opposite."

Yes, because people also make up the religion. However, since people doesn't matter to you rather than their scriptures, then why would you trust the people who told you one thing when their scriptures say something else?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

They are completely free to practice their own dogmas and doctrines. We are Baha'is so we are not bound to the dogmas and traditions of other religions just as they are not bound by our laws and teachings.

Another contradiction.

You have laws and teachings? If so, that is dogma/doctrine.

You have different expressions and your expressions are your religions.

And becuase they are, a Buddhist who has no god and a Bahai that does has no common foundation/expression regardless if you guys want love and unity. That's your lesser peace.

The greater peace, if one likes, can't be established if Bahaullah is abolishing people's traditions. That is just like the Church with paganism.

 

[CG Didymus]

Thanks for these questions. I'm learning a lot from you.

“The Ark and the Flood we believe are symbolical.”
(Shoghi Effendi)

We don't know all the dates. All we know is that there were always Manifestations. In progressive Revelation charts estimates are given which most historians accept in general but the further we go back th less we can verify.

There were many Manifestations before Moses. Also we don't know the time between them. Baha'u'llah says 'about once in a thousand years' but some Revelations appeared at shorter intervals.

This may or may not help. But gives an idea of the scope of history.

“And now regarding thy question, “How is it that no records are to be found concerning the Prophets that have preceded Adam, the Father of Mankind, or of the kings that lived in the days of those Prophets?” Know thou that the absence of any reference to them is no proof that they did not actually exist. That no records concerning them are now available, should be attributed to their extreme remoteness, as well as to the vast changes which the earth hath undergone since their time.

Moreover such forms and modes of writing as are now current amongst men were unknown to the generations that were before Adam. There was even a time when men were wholly ignorant of the art of writing, and had adopted a system entirely different from the one which they now use. For a proper exposition of this an elaborate explanation would be required.”

Baha'u'llah

Okay, flood symbolic. The resurrection... symbolic. Then how about Adam? The Bible has all the generations listed, people have added up the numbers... just a few thousands years. So can we add Adam to the symbolic list and say that the time frame is off? So, if we do that, how do you come up with a starting date for the "Adamic" cycle?

So now how do we add in Hinduism into the mix? They have their own cycles. I think we better check those out. Oh my God, then there's the Mayan calendar? And who knows what else is out there? But, I'll take a quick search and see what I can find on the cycles in Hinduism.

 

[CG Didymus]

Thank you for your warm welcome. My experience and research has given me an answer to your question.
I find the best description of the soul is "that which is aware of being aware." It exists in another reality. It uses the mind to interact with this reality. The mind is not the brain but rather a link between the spirit and the brain which is basically a glorified switchboard. The human ego and personality are products of the mind as is the concept of Heaven and Hell. These are products of the subjects life experiences, especially their childhood. I believe our purpose for being here is educational, to gain life experiences and then to understand the mechanics behind them.

Then what would be so bad about some sort of reincarnation scheme? Since all religions are "one", but we're whittling out the things that we don't like, why whittle out reincarnation? It gives the spirit/soul, whatever it is, a chance for more experiences.

 

[CG Didymus]

This PDF goes into most of the Manifestations.

Noah is mentioned in the Book of Certitude by Baha'u'llah.

Adam is mentioned by the Bab as founding a religion.

“For had the embryo not existed, how could he have reached his present state? Likewise had the religion taught by Adam not existed, this Faith would not have attained its present state....”

The Bab

Thanks, now we're really getting somewhere... where that is I don't know... but we're going.

Adam in the Christian Bible didn't start anything... he started a mess... and God had to send Jesus to die to fix it.

Adam in Judaism I doubt would be considered the founder of a religion, Besides, what would it be? It wasn't Judaism. He was part of the Jewish "mythology". And, also, a manifestation better be smarter than Adam to get fooled so easily. Everybody knows not to eat forbidden fruit... not even if it's organic.

Noah? Same thing. He had flaws. Not to mentioned he is the hero of a mythic tale about a great flood, but was he a real person? What did Baha'u'llah say about him? And didn't we already decide that the flood itself was a myth?

So we have still a lot of problems. Oh, I took a quick look at Jainism, and their founder may qualify as a manifestation too. As if we need to argue about another one.

 

[Esoqq]

I feel we all havd a purpose or calling and these people are not different. The Buddha talks about him coming from his rich living to humble himself among the poor. He himself did not ask for people to bow to him but he gave knowledge others he felt did not have. I have respect for The Buddha because he didnt advocate worship nor did he set himself apart from others. To consider him great is a mark of respect but a person to be revered he spoke against that.

Jesus was no greater in that he placed the greatest as god the father himself. Because of his teachings and the apostles many people have gone into wars. Other people have been indoctrinated unhealthily innthe christian faith. Jesus did not promote anyone to worship him. The way is not the same as the source. Someone claimed jesus god, and jesus sd the only one who is good is the father. If he did not see himself as good why would christians see him as great. He is just like us.

Moses submited to god. He did not place himself more than a human. To see him as a prophet is putting him above others. Where is his place given he is not god? How is he great when even jesus said he was not good.

Mummhamad would Never place himself at a higher position to where he is not Just a prophet. Like jesus he is human and like jesus they believed in one god. Whether he made himself great i dont know.

The general consensus is god is the only great person, prophet, teacher, and creator.

I dont see how they are different than the authors of my favorite books and artists. They are teachers and educators. To me, nothing more.

Most of what you write I agree with, the main exception is that they were either possessed by, or influenced by what their followers believe was a divine source. I share that belief and I also believe that this divine source is available to many, perhaps all, of us if we pursue it with sufficient devotion and dedication.
The path isn't that complicated but it is extremely difficult. I've found one way that works for me but it took me over a decade to master it and I'm not sure I would recommend it for others.
In my opinion what makes the messengers different from other mystics is that they were chosen by this source for a specific mission, Moses, Jesus, and Mohammad weren't exactly volunteers, each expressed doubts and a certain degree of reluctance.
The Buddha on the other hand sought enlightenment with an incredible intensity and failed to achieve it. Only after he gave up on his quest was his quest fulfilled and enlightenment was granted to him. I view that enlightenment to be from the same divine source as the others since it teaches the same basic spiritual lessons which is designed to free up the love that lives withingeach of us and not just for each other but for life in all it's diversities. I consider this to be the divine spark that motivates and activates us.