How can a Jew reject Jesus as the Messiah?

[Skywalker]

We have covered this ground before. Look at the context. Jesus was not referring to coming back to Earth in that verse. Every time a Christian sees the word "come" they think it means Jesus is coming back, but Jesus is not coming back.
How many times do I have to keep posting the same verses, 100 times or 1000 times?

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

In John 14:19 Jesus was talking about ascending to heaven. What Does John 14:19 Mean?

"After a little while the world will no longer see Me, but you will see Me; because I live, you will live also.
John 14:19(NASB)

Verse Thoughts
The sudden shock of hearing that Jesus was leaving to go back to the Father must have been desperately disturbing for the disciples, but Jesus quickly started to explain.. that although they could not go with Him at that time, their physical separation from Him would only be temporary. Jesus was going to prepare a heavenly abode for each one of them, and unless He went away the many benefits that were planned for believers.. and the glorious mysteries surrounding the Church.. which would be later revealed through the apostle Paul - would not be able to be realised.
Up to this point God was using Israel to be His witnesses to a lost and dying world, but they had rejected their Messiah Who would soon be crucified on Calvary's cross. As a result Israel was set aside until Christ's second coming. But in the meantime the Church was to be the organism through which God would now continue to carry out His sovereign plans and purposes.. for the redemption of the world.. And in this chapter Jesus begins to explain to His disciples, some of the things which would happen between the time of the cross and the coming kingdom - between Calvary and the millennial rule of Christ.. between the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ and His triumphant return as King of kings and Lord of lords.

 

[Isolde Schulz]

Insinuating that Jews are incomprehensibly stupid is both rude and thoughtless.

Don't feed it.

Do I understand correctly that Judaism recognises that there were/are many messiahs? I'd be keen on knowing the criteria for falsehood(s), since that is what in effect is holding up the circus.

 

[Skywalker]

It pretty much does. Your source did not properly research his sources. In Isaiah 53 the "suffering servant" is Israel. It is hardly messianic.

The Old Testament gives a messianic profile. The Targums are Jewish writings that interpret the Suffering Servant to be a reference to the Messiah. Chapter Two: The Suffering Servant by Mark Eastman

One of the oldest translations of the Hebrew scriptures are known as the Targums. These are aramaic translations of very ancient Hebrew manuscripts that also included commentary on the scriptures. They were translated in the first or second century B.C.E. In the Targum of Isaiah, we read this incredible quote regarding the suffering servant in Isaiah 53:

"Behold, my servant the Messiah shall prosper; he shall be exalted and great and very powerful. The righteous one shall grow up before him, lo, like sprouting plants; and like a tree that sends its roots by the water-courses, so shall the exploits of the Holy One multiply in the land which was desperate for him. His appearance shall not be a profane appearance, nor shall the awe of an ignorant person, but his countenance shall radiate with holiness, so that all who see him shall become wise through him. All of us were scattered like sheep... but it is the will of God to pardonthe sins of all of us on his account...Then I will apportion unto him the spoil of great nations...because he was ready to suffer martyrdom that the rebellious he might subjugate to the Torah. And he might seek pardon for the sins of many."
According to this commentary, the Messiah would suffer martyrdom, he would be, "The Righteous One" and would provide a way for God to forgive our sins. This forgiveness would be accomplished, not because of our goodness, but on account of the righteousness of Messiah. As we shall see, this is the very message of Jesus as recorded in the New Testament!

A reading from a Yom Kippur and Rosh Hashanah prayer book contains this passage:

"Our righteous anointed is departed from us: horror has seized us, and we have none to justify us. He has borne the yoke of our iniquities, and our transgression, and is wounded because of our transgression. He bears our sins on his shoulders, that we may find pardon for our iniquities. We shall be healed by his wound, at the time that the eternal will create the Messiah as a new creature. O bring him up from the circle of the earth. Raise him up from Seir, to assemble us the second time on mount Lebanon, by the hand of Yinon."

 

[Subduction Zone]

Isaiah 9:6 is a messianic prophecy. Something being written in past tense doesn't mean it's talking about a past event. Answering Judaism: Examining Isaiah 9:6

Nope, we went over this already. More than once. The last time you tried to use Isaiah 53 as support and that did not work out so well.

 

[Skywalker]

Then that means that Jesus is not coming back to the world.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Jesus was telling the apostles that he was going to use them to spread the gospel to the world after he ascended to heaven. What Does John 17:11 Mean?

And now the hour had arrived for the God-Man, Jesus Christ the righteous, to finish the work the Father had prepared for Him to do, before He departed His earthly abode and returned to His heavenly home. He would have to leave the little band of disciples who had recognised Him as the Christ - the Son of the Most High God, and He knew that this would cause them deep confusion and bitter pain - for a time.
And so it was that Jesus prayed His wonderful High Priestly prayer and much of His petition to the Father was in connection with those He would leave behind in this God-hating, Christ-rejecting, sinful world - which is in the control and clutches of satanic forces.
I am no longer in the world, He prayed, for He was returning to the Holy Father in heaven, and yet they themselves are in the world. His faithful followers were to remain in the word and continue the work that Jesus Himself had begun - a ministry of reconciliation. They were the ones that God would use to spread the good news of the glorious gospel of redemption to a lost and dying world - a world that was drowning in trespasses; dead in their sin and eternally separated from the almighty God.

 

[Skywalker]

No, it doesn't. You can read it in context here:

Bible Gateway passage: John 12 - New International Version

John 21:22 Jesus said to him, “If I will that he remain till I come, what is thatto you? You follow Me."

 

[Skywalker]

Nope, we went over this already. More than once. The last time you tried to use Isaiah 53 as support and that did not work out so well.

People believe that Israel 53 is about Israel because they misunderstand the messianic prophecies of the Bible. Chapter Two: The Suffering Servant by Mark Eastman

Again, 20th century Jewish author Samuel Levine regarding the suffering servant in Isaiah 53:

"Many Jewish commentators feel that it [Isaiah 53] refers to the Jewish people on the whole. We find many instances in the Bible where the Jewish people on the whole are addressed to, or are described, in the singulary....Thus, Isaiah 53 could very well be describing the history of the Jewish people - despised by the world, persecuted by the crusaders and the Spanish Inquisition and the Nazis, while the world silently watched...The verses therefore do not point exclusively to Jesus, or to a Messiah."[3]
However popular this belief has become in modern Jewish scholarship, it has not been held throughout the history of rabbinical thought. There is abundant written evidence, from ancient rabbinical sources, that the suffering servant is indeed the Messiah.[4] In fact, by the time of the writing of the Mishna and the Talmud, the paradoxical destiny of the Messiah had created a struggle in the minds of the rabbis. In addition to the suffering servant prophecies, the Bible had woven throughout its text the prophecies of a triumphant, ruling and reigning king who would bring everlasting righteousness to the earth and restore Israel to its place of prominence among the nations. This contradiction was too much for the rabbis to unite into one person. So, they began to speculate that there were to be two or possibly three Messiahs!

According to their speculations, the suffering servant, called Messiah Ben Joseph, would be killed in the war of Gog and Magog. The triumphant, ruling and reigning servant, called Messiah Ben David, would rebuild the temple and rule and reign in Jerusalem. This belief eventually became firmly rooted in the Talmud.[5]

Does the Bible teach that there would be two comings of the Messiah? | GotQuestions.org

The second coming of Christ is a major tenet of Christian theology, and we eagerly look forward to our “blessed hope” (Titus 2:13). But the knowledge that the Messiah would have two comings came to humanity gradually, as God’s revelation to mankind was progressive.

 

[Subduction Zone]

People believe that Israel 53 is about Israel because they misunderstand the messianic prophecies of the Bible. Chapter Two: The Suffering Servant by Mark Eastman



Does the Bible teach that there would be two comings of the Messiah? | GotQuestions.org

How do Jews misunderstand that passage? Their understanding requires much less doctoring than the Christian interpretation does.

 

[rosends]

Do I understand correctly that Judaism recognises that there were/are many messiahs? I'd be keen on knowing the criteria for falsehood(s), since that is what in effect is holding up the circus.

In Judaism being anointed simply meant having a role as a king or a priest (or, possibly, a prophet). It was a role that a number of people held over time. Their being more than one was not all that spectacular -- there were a bunch of kings and high priests.

 

[Skywalker]

How do Jews misunderstand that passage? Their understanding requires much less doctoring than the Christian interpretation does.

Some rabbis interpreted Isaiah 53 in a way that understood the verse was talking about Yeshua. Chapter Two: The Suffering Servant by Mark Eastman

These remarkable references from the ancient rabbis leave no doubt that the suffering servant in Isaiah 52:13-53:12 was indeed believed to be the Messiah. Even more remarkable is the fact that the suffering servant of Isaiah is connected with the suffering servant of Psalm 22. Finally, we find the ancient rabbis claiming that the suffering and death of the Messiah would have the effect of freeing us from our sins. This is in complete agreement with the Christian concept of the Messiah!

Even without these ancient references, there are several other reasons why the suffering servant in Isaiah 53 could not be the nation of Israel.

First, the suffering servant is an innocent person without sin:

"And they made his grave with the wicked; but with the rich at his death, because he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth." Isaiah 53:9

 

[Skywalker]

Here are just a few contradictions in the Bible:

Biblical Contradictions | American Atheists

Too bad that the BibViz page no longer works.

Oh wait! Good news. I found a working copy of it:

BibViz Project - Bible Contradictions, Misogyny, Violence, Inaccuracies interactively visualized

God used other nations to judge Israel when they walked away from God and into idolatry. Just because God used other nations to judge Israel for idolatry doesn't mean he condoned what the other nations did to Israel. Real Messiah

First of all, those who claim to be "Christians," but persecute, torture, or kill other human beings in Jesus' name, cannot really know Jesus and are falsely claiming to follow him. Not only does the Torah forbid murder, but Jesus himself pronounced a blessing upon the meek and those who seek peace, and he commanded his followers to love their enemies, to pray for those who persecute them, and to do good to those who hate them (see Matt. 5:44; Luke 6:35). There are many examples in the New Testament that show that the true followers of Jesus are not those who do the persecuting, but those who are persecuted for their faith in him. Jesus warned that there would be disingenuous people who would be his followers in name only since their actions would betray their hardened hearts and evil deeds (see Matt. 7:21-23). God is very aware of the utter hypocrisy of these false followers of his Messiah and will judge them accordingly.

Secondly, even though the Bible informs us that God's punishment on the disobedient people of Israel is often meted out through the actions of other nations (see Isa. 10:5-7, 12), this does not mean that those nations are given free reign over us. When they punish us too severely, they become the recipient of God's wrath on behalf of his people (see Zech. 1:15) so that the punishers are punished by God.

 

[Subduction Zone]

God used other nations to judge Israel when they walked away from God and into idolatry. Just because God used other nations to judge Israel for idolatry doesn't mean he condoned what the other nations did to Israel. Real Messiah

This is quite the non sequitur. It has nothing to do with my post.

 

[Isolde Schulz]

This is quite the non sequitur. It has nothing to do with my post.

I derived no sensical answer either.
What is the ***** criteria for the Jewish Messiah?

 

[Trailblazer]

In John 14:19 Jesus was talking about ascending to heaven. What Does John 14:19 Mean?

That is why the world would see Jesus no more but that is not what Jesus was talking about in that verse.
Why can't Christians just face reality? Jesus is not coming back to this world.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

 

[Trailblazer]

The last time you tried to use Isaiah 53 as support and that did not work out so well.

And it never will because it does not refer to Jesus.

 

[Trailblazer]

Jesus was telling the apostles that he was going to use them to spread the gospel to the world after he ascended to heaven. What Does John 17:11 Mean?

"I am no longer in the world, He prayed, for He was returning to the Holy Father in heaven, and yet they themselves are in the world. His faithful followers were to remain in the word and continue the work that Jesus Himself had begun - a ministry of reconciliation. They were the ones that God would use to spread the good news of the glorious gospel of redemption to a lost and dying world - a world that was drowning in trespasses; dead in their sin and eternally separated from the almighty God."

Source: What Does John 17:11 Mean?

But that is not what the verse says. This verse has nothing to do with Jesus telling the apostles that He was going to use them to spread the gospel to the world after he ascended to heaven.... NOTHING.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

 

[Isolde Schulz]

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

The world does seeth.

 

[Trailblazer]

The world does seeth.

It does, but it does not see the physical body of Jesus in the world again and it never will.

 

[Isolde Schulz]

Sorry, I meant it ironically: the world does seethe. But I appreciate that the physical body of Christ may never be seen again, perhaps a good thing so that we can marvel at what does come "next".

 

[Rival]

I derived no sensical answer either.
What is the ***** criteria for the Jewish Messiah?

See my post 73 here in the spoiler Theosis, Salvation, and Jesus