How can a Jew reject Jesus as the Messiah?

[Redemptionsong]

Yes, the mirror is that David was a righteous king.

My last point was made in response to your 'what?'. I'm interested to know whether you think of yourself as part of Jacob, or part of Israel.

Was David righteous in all his ways? Clearly not. He had blood on his hands. So, the parallels must exist elsewhere.

But what about the differences between Jacob and Israel. What are they?

 

[Tumah]

There was no reason for the stories about Jesus being the Messiah to be a fabrication. They didn't write their testimony earlier because the New Testament writers were living in a culture where the vast majority of people were illiterate, there was no initial need or utility in writing it down. First-century people in Palestine, by necessity, developed strong memories in order to remember and pass on information.

May you have a speedy recovery.

 

[Tumah]

Was David righteous in all his ways? Clearly not. He had blood on his hands. So, the parallels must exist elsewhere.

Yes, David was righteous in all his ways. He had no blood on his hands, although he did do things that were wrong. But that's ok, because he repented from them as Prov. 24:16 says, the righteous fall seven times and rise. Sinning does not detract from righteousness when it's followed by repentance.

But what about the differences between Jacob and Israel. What are they?

There are none. Jacob and Israel are the same person and his children are called by his name.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Yes, David was righteous in all his ways. He had no blood on his hands, although he did do things that were wrong. But that's ok, because he repented from them as Prov. 24:16 says, the righteous fall seven times and rise. Sinning does not detract from righteousness when it's followed by repentance.


There are none. Jacob and Israel are the same person and his children are called by his name.

Why, then, do the JPS 1985 notes on Isaiah 59:20 say that it's not the whole nation that will be saved? If only some of those that make up Jacob are penitent sinners, then it means that Jacob and Israel are not the same. For all Israel will be saved.

Since there is a distinction to be made between Jacob and Israel, it seems worthwhile to work out what that difference is. One of the obvious things that arises from the passage, in Genesis 32, is that the name Israel was given only after Jacob had had his face-to-face encounter at Peniel, described as a struggle with 'God and men' or 'beings divine and human'. So, why would an encounter with homo deus make all the difference to salvation?

 

[Redemptionsong]

There's just no getting away from it. lol. Jesus said the Father is greater than he is. No getting away from it. I don't know about you, but if a person says someone is greater than he is, it means to me that the person is greater than he is.

Who do you worship and serve? Before answering read Philippians 2:9-11.

 

[rosends]

No, the words are not about Jesus, they are about the temple.

Is the temple not of value to you? Does the destruction of the temple not have significance in Judaism?

These words of Jesus demonstrate that he was a prophet. He prophesied the destruction of the temple.

But you claim these are words "of Jesus." Two problems:

1. Maybe they aren't -- maybe they are made up
2. Jesus is irrelevant so his words are irrelevant.

If he said something about ice cream, though I'm a fan of ice cream, that doesn't make anything he said relevant to me.

 

[Audie]

May you have a speedy recovery.

From ad hocosis?

 

[Redemptionsong]

But you claim these are words "of Jesus." Two problems:

1. Maybe they aren't -- maybe they are made up
2. Jesus is irrelevant so his words are irrelevant.

If he said something about ice cream, though I'm a fan of ice cream, that doesn't make anything he said relevant to me.

This sounds like the argument of a turtle with its head under its shell!

 

[rosends]

This sounds like the argument of a turtle with its head under its shell!

It would sound like that to an ostrich with his head buried in the sand, I guess.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Jesus and Lucifer brothers... I do not know how to answer the question.

Yeah, Skywalker brought that one up. Maybe he was mistaken?

 

[Skywalker]

Do you know why there is a difference? "By" the way, if I go by route 66, it means I took route 66. Unfortunately, you're striving to support each and every proposition offered to bolster up the trinity theory. To me it's like evolution. Unsupported except for grasping straws, but striving to make it real. And people aren't going to give up the evolution theory in "essence" if they don't want to, or don't see it differently.
Many Bibles use the word through rather than by, I see. As I said, if I go by a road to get somewhere, it can mean I'm using that road to get where I'm going. Have you looked it up in an interlinear regarding the Greek? Because -- Strong's Concordance (you've heard of that, haven't you?) says -- the Greek there at John 1:3 means: through, on account of, because of.

Zechariah 12:10 in the King James Bible talks about the divinity of Jesus. It says, "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."

 

[Tumah]

From ad hocosis?

It's a terrible plague.

 

[Tumah]

Why, then, do the JPS 1985 notes on Isaiah 59:20 say that it's not the whole nation that will be saved? If only some of those that make up Jacob are penitent sinners, then it means that Jacob and Israel are not the same. For all Israel will be saved.

Because you're looking at Romans 11:26 and assuming that he translated the original verse correctly.

Do you see the difference between what Romans says and what the verse actually says?

Since there is a distinction to be made between Jacob and Israel, it seems worthwhile to work out what that difference is. One of the obvious things that arises from the passage, in Genesis 32, is that the name Israel was given only after Jacob had had his face-to-face encounter at Peniel, described as a struggle with 'God and men' or 'beings divine and human'. So, why would an encounter with homo deus make all the difference to salvation?

You have not yet proven that there actually is a distinction between the two. The fact that the man himself received the name after fighting with the angel, doesn't mean that there's a difference between when the nation is called by one or the other.

 

[Redemptionsong]

It would sound like that to an ostrich with his head buried in the sand, I guess.

 

[YoursTrue]

There is a distinction between the role of Jesus and the role of the other members of the Trinity. Jesus incarnated, not God the Father or the Holy Spirit.

Let's do it again,shall we? Jesus could not do certain things when he was on the earth. Therefore...

 

[Skywalker]

Let's do it again,shall we? Jesus could not do certain things when he was on the earth. Therefore...

Those verses shows that the members of the Trinity had different roles.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Because you're looking at Romans 11:26 and assuming that he translated the original verse correctly.
View attachment 46585
Do you see the difference between what Romans says and what the verse actually says?


You have not yet proven that there actually is a distinction between the two. The fact that the man himself received the name after fighting with the angel, doesn't mean that there's a difference between when the nation is called by one or the other.

There is clearly a difference between Jacob and Israel, and one that the translators of JPS 1985 Edition make explicit in their notes [Isaiah 59:20 side-note]. You clearly disagree with their comment. Why?

I don't have to use Romans 11:26 to support the view expressed in Isaiah 59:20. It's based on the idea that all Israel will be saved; an idea that is scattered throughout the Tanakh.

1 Samuel 19:5. [KJV] 'For he [David] did put his life in his hand, and slew the Philistine, and the LORD wrought a great salvation for all Israel: thou [Saul] sawest it, and didst rejoice: wherefore then wilt thou sin against innocent blood, to slay David without a cause?'

1 Samuel 19:5. [JPS 1985 Edition]. 'He [David] took his life in his hands and killed the Philistine, and the LORD wrought a great victory for all Israel. You saw it and rejoiced. Why then should you incur the guilt of shedding the blood of an innocent man, killing David without cause?'

Amazing words of truth, but only if you have eyes to see!

 

[Skywalker]

Do you know why there is a difference? "By" the way, if I go by route 66, it means I took route 66. Unfortunately, you're striving to support each and every proposition offered to bolster up the trinity theory. To me it's like evolution. Unsupported except for grasping straws, but striving to make it real. And people aren't going to give up the evolution theory in "essence" if they don't want to, or don't see it differently.
Many Bibles use the word through rather than by, I see. As I said, if I go by a road to get somewhere, it can mean I'm using that road to get where I'm going. Have you looked it up in an interlinear regarding the Greek? Because -- Strong's Concordance (you've heard of that, haven't you?) says -- the Greek there at John 1:3 means: through, on account of, because of.

In the NIV in Matthew 18:11 the entire verse, "For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost" was removed. In Matthew 18:26, the expression, "and worshiped him" was removed, a key verse showing that only Jesus is worshiped in the New Testament.

 

[ayin]

 

[robocop (actually)]

Yeah, Skywalker brought that one up. Maybe he was mistaken?

As best I know:

We lived as spirits before coming to earth. There was God and His created spirits. Jesus and Lucifer were the two oldest... I think Lucifer was the oldest.

Lucifer said we could come to Earth and He'd make sure everyone would do the right thing and get saved in the kingdom of God. Lucifer would receive the glory.

Jesus Christ said He would set an example for them, but they could choose whether to be saved or not. God would receive the glory.

God chose Jesus Christ's plan. Lucifer was angry and took 1/3 of the spirits with Him. They would never receive bodies but would try to antagonize people to not accept Jesus' plan.

When we came to earth, a curtain over this previous life covered it so we would have a fair test.

Once we die, we go to spirit paradise or spirit prison. Those in the paradise preach to those who arr in prison, and they can still repent but it's more difficult without bodies.

Then there is a judgement and there are multiple Heavens to which one might go.