How can a Jew reject Jesus as the Messiah?

[Rival]

Yes, converted to conforming with YHWH's ways.

They could have been conforming with G-d's Will before converting, but yes; they became Torah observant.

 

[Batya]

And to the first point, it was directed at them because of who they were, not because of their deeds. If it were anti-Semitic, it would have been towards them as Jews. He was not saying that because they were Jewish

 

[Rival]

And to the first point, it was directed at them because of who they were, not because of their deeds. If it were anti-Semitic, it would have been towards them as Jews. He was not saying that because they were Jewish

Uhm? It opens with this:

I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but ...

and then...

They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”

and then...

Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham.

and then...

Then they said to him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”

The fact that they're Jews is the whole point, here.

 

[Batya]

Uhm? It opens with this:

I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but ...

and then...

They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”

and then...

Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham.

and then...

Then they said to him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”

The fact that they're Jews is the whole point, here.

Abraham was not a Jew though.

 

[Rival]

Abraham was not a Jew though.

No, but he was the father of the Jewish people.

 

[Batya]

I hope I'm not coming across as antagonistic, I don't intend to.

 

[Rival]

I hope I'm not coming across as antagonistic, I don't intend to.

You're fine.

 

[Batya]

No, but he was the father of the Jewish people.

Definitely. I think we could go around in circles with this, but the whole message of the NT is about Israel coming back to YHWH. It is full of his love for His people, Yeshua himself was a Jew.

 

[Batya]

To bring them back to the Torah.

 

[Rival]

Definitely. I think we could go around in circles with this, but the whole message of the NT is about Israel coming back to YHWH. It is full of his love for His people, Yeshua himself was a Jew.

To bring them back to the Torah.

Bringing Jews back to Torah observance didn't and doesn't require any of what Jesus did, though. The prophets are stellar examples of how one goes about this and the formula is already laid out several times in their writings. G-d repeatedly asks the nation to repent, turn from wickedness and engage in justice (follow Torah) - if not, they end up exiled or otherwise punished, then G-d takes them back and the cycle repeats. This is laid out time after time in the prophetical books. By the time Jesus was around, these works were already old and well-known.

 

[YoursTrue]

It.

Did.

Disqualify.

Him.

What are you missing here exactly? A tiny portion of a Jewish sect believed/s he was/is the Messiah. Literally no-one else does. What point are you trying to make?

What I am linking here is that it is said in order to ascertain who the Messiah is, the Jews will have to all go back to Israel. And that did not happen before or after he, M. Schneerson, died. Yes, it disqualified him according to your set of prophecies re the messiah, but it should have or could have been apparent before he died. I guess some were hoping he'd be resurrected but by now I think that hope is gone, although he is revered by some and I guess they think he's alive somewhere to listen to their prayers? Not sure about that.
Going back to what are considered by some as vital pointers to a messiah, Micah 5:2 comes to mind. How do you feel about that in reference to needed qualifications?

 

[rosends]

What I am linking here is that it is said in order to ascertain who the Messiah is, the Jews will have to all go back to Israel. And that did not happen before or after he died. Yes, it disqualified him according to your set of prophecies re the messiah, but it should have or could have been apparent before he died. I guess some were hoping he'd be resurrected but by now I think that hope is gone, although he is revered by some and I guess they think he's alive somewhere to listen to their prayers? Not sure about that.
Going back to what are considered by some as vital pointers to a messiah, Micah 5:2 comes to mind. How do you feel about that in reference to needed qualifications?

You might be confusing elements of the messianic era vs. things that are "done" by the messiah, himself. The specific time line is well argued in the various Jewish texts as it is subject to interpretation and object of various opinions. Whether elements are sine qua nons or contemporaneous events is another subject of discussion.

The Pre-Messianic Era

edit - some additional reading

Will Moshiach know that he is Moshiach?

 

[YoursTrue]

You might be confusing elements of the messianic era vs. things that are "done" by the messiah, himself. The specific time line is well argued in the various Jewish texts as it is subject to interpretation and object of various opinions. Whether elements are sine qua nons or contemporaneous events is another subject of discussion.

The Pre-Messianic Era

edit - some additional reading

Will Moshiach know that he is Moshiach?

So from what I have read, there is no agreement.

 

[YoursTrue]

You might be confusing elements of the messianic era vs. things that are "done" by the messiah, himself. The specific time line is well argued in the various Jewish texts as it is subject to interpretation and object of various opinions. Whether elements are sine qua nons or contemporaneous events is another subject of discussion.

The Pre-Messianic Era

edit - some additional reading

Will Moshiach know that he is Moshiach?

I really wouldn't have said anything about M. Schneerson but for the big billboard sign I saw on a New York State highway with the phone number for 1800Moshiach. It was evidently a headquarters in Brooklyn for M. Schneerson. While he was alive, of course. I guess the idea was abandoned among these scholars of that community after he has not come out of grave. He got a lot of publicity. Do you think people, his devotees, are praying to him?

 

[YoursTrue]

I'm not. Just a little surprised.

We have a tradition that when Eliyahu the prophet will come, he'll answer the unsolvable questions. Same for lineage, tribal affiliation, etc. DNA is a problematic issue in halacha because it's never at 100% certainty.

It's about 2000 years now since temple was destroyed. The Bible's prophecies and history in the first century C.E. make a lot of sense to me. Thanks for conversation.

 

[Batya]

Bringing Jews back to Torah observance didn't and doesn't require any of what Jesus did, though. The prophets are stellar examples of how one goes about this and the formula is already laid out several times in their writings. G-d repeatedly asks the nation to repent, turn from wickedness and engage in justice (follow Torah) - if not, they end up exiled or otherwise punished, then G-d takes them back and the cycle repeats. This is laid out time after time in the prophetical books. By the time Jesus was around, these works were already old and well-known.

Yes, they had the prophets, but at the time of Yeshua, the northern kingdom was(and is) still in exile, there were some Jews in the land, but they were under Roman rule obviously. Therefore, could we say they were not listening to the prophets, so YHWH sent them another.

 

[Rival]

Yes, they had the prophets, but at the time of Yeshua, the northern kingdom was(and is) still in exile, there were some Jews in the land, but they were under Roman rule obviously. Therefore, could we say they were not listening to the prophets, so YHWH sent them another.

Jesus was not a recognised prophet, nor did he present himself to be accounted as one.

 

[rosends]

So from what I have read, there is no agreement.

there is always SOME agreement, but there is also a lot of disagreement. What all agree on is that we don't know definitively.

 

[rosends]

Do you think people, his devotees, are praying to him?

In Judaism, one does not pray to a person, dead or alive. One might pray invoking his merit, but that happens by virtue of his being a great man.

 

[rosends]

Jesus was not a recognised prophet, nor did he present himself to be accounted as one.

also, the era of prophecy had ended 300 years earlier.