How can a Jew reject Jesus as the Messiah?

[Rival]

The Torah is not only for Jews, it is for Israel, and has always been open to those who would forsake their wickedness and idolatry and come to YHWH.
Do not let the son of the foreigner
Who has joined himself to theLord
Speak, saying,
“The Lord has utterly separated me from His people”;
Nor let the eunuch say,
“Here I am, a dry tree.”
4 For thus says the Lord:
“To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths,
And choose what pleases Me,
And hold fast My covenant,
5 Even to them I will give in My house
And within My walls a place and a name
Better than that of sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting name
That shall not be cut off.

6 “Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to theLord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of theLord, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant—
7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
Will be accepted on My altar;
For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”
8 The Lord God, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, says,
“Yet I will gather to him
Others besides those who are gathered to him.”
Isa 56:6-8

This is talking about converts.

The Torah itself repeatedly says 'Speak to the children of Israel'. If you want to be part of Israel and therefore have your place in their covenant, you need to convert.

 

[Batya]

I regret I have to leave This conversation right now. I will get back to you at some point, I have extremely limited internet, I am in no way attempting to evade any questions.
Shalom!

 

[Rival]

I regret I have to leave This conversation right now. I will get back to you at some point, I have extremely limited internet, I am in no way attempting to evade any questions.
Shalom!

Enjoy the rest of your day

 

[rosends]

Okay, so, I don't call myself a Christian because many of their teachings are heresy according to the tanach and also NT. I keep the Torah to the best of my ability, keep the Sabbath, eat biblically clean, keep the feasts(as week as you can outside Israel, in the dispersion), believe in circumcision as a sign of the covenant, wear tsitsiyot, etc, etc. There is not really a good label, my family and I just seek to walk in the commandments, we also believe in Yeshua.

You say you keep the Torah to the best of your ability. If you don't mind my asking:

What are Totafot which you are commanded to place between your eyes?
How are you instructed to slaughter animals as referenced in Deut 12:21?
What constitutes "work" that one may not do on the sabbath?
What birds do you eat or not eat when you keep the Torah?
Do you carry out the various death penalties demanded in the text?
Do you wear tsitsiyot on a bathing suit?
If the events prompting the festivals occured outside of Israel, why would there be any difference how one keeps them when one is inside/outside Israel?

Just curious and off the cuff. Thanks.

 

[Rival]

You say you keep the Torah to the best of your ability. If you don't mind my asking:

What are Totafot which you are commanded to place between your eyes?
How are you instructed to slaughter animals as referenced in Deut 12:21?
What constitutes "work" that one may not do on the sabbath?
What birds do you eat or not eat when you keep the Torah?
Do you carry out the various death penalties demanded in the text?
Do you wear tsitsiyot on a bathing suit?
If the events prompting the festivals occured outside of Israel, why would there be any difference how one keeps them when one is inside/outside Israel?

Just curious and off the cuff. Thanks.

I was tipping that a lot of this may have something to do with 'Talmud was written by Rabbis and isn't authoritative so we don't do it like xyz.'

 

[rosends]

I was tipping that a lot of this may have something to do with 'Talmud was written by Rabbis and isn't authoritative so we don't do it like xyz.'

I'm ok with that. I want to know how it IS done, then.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

It doesnt really matter if I'm linking the rather famous M. Schneerson to the list of prophecies, because during his lifetime the Jewish population didn't go back to Israel. So that should have disqualified him?

Yes,actually the fact that Shneerson didn't rule from Jerusalem or bring all the Jews back to Israel DOES disqualify him. The Lubavitchers are our beloved heretics. I support them, actually, for their wonderful ability to bring Jews back to Judaism and encourage them in a spirit of love to do mitzvot. But all hopes of the Rebbe of blessed memory being the messiah died when he passed on.

 

[Rival]

Yes,actually the fact that Shneerson didn't rule from Jerusalem or bring all the Jews back to Israel DOES disqualify him. The Lubavitchers are our beloved heretics. I support them, actually, for their wonderful ability to bring Jews back to Judaism and encourage them in a spirit of love to do mitzvot. But all hopes of the Rebbe of blessed memory being the messiah died when he passed on.

How are they heretics?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

How are they heretics?

The believe that the Rebbe is the Messiah even though he doesn't meet the criteria. So they are a little meshugenah... they are OURS. We love them. If there were a Chabad House near me, that's where I'd go.

 

[Rival]

The believe that the Rebbe is the Messiah even though he doesn't meet the criteria. So they are a little meshugenah... they are OURS. We love them. If there were a Chabad House near me, that's where I'd go.

They don't all believe that though. Most of them don't, as far as I know.

 

[Jedster]

They don't all believe that though. Most of them don't, as far as I know.

(As a former Chabadnik) I can assure you that you are correct.
Although, I am far from being a religious Jew, I ask myself how any (practising)Jew can believe that Moshiach could be a dead person?

 

[Rival]

(As a former Chabadnik) I can assure you that you are correct.
Although, I am far from being a religious Jew, I ask myself how any (practising)Jew can believe that Moshiach could be a dead person?

I wish I had any clue.

Or, actually, no I don't.

 

[dybmh]

How are they heretics?

This explains it. Not that I agree with it.

Misnagdim - Wikipedia

"The Vilna Gaon, Elijah ben Solomon Zalman, a prominent rabbi, galvanized opposition to Hasidic Judaism. He believed that the claims of miracles and visions made by Hasidic Jews were lies and delusions. A key point of opposition was that the Vilna Gaon maintained that greatness in Torah and observance must come through natural human efforts at Torah study without relying on any external "miracles" and "wonders", whereas the Ba'al Shem Tov was more focused on bringing encouragement and raising the morale of the Jewish people, especially following the Chmelnitzki pogroms (1648–1654) and the aftermath of disillusionment in the Jewish masses following the millennial excitement heightened by the failed messianic claims of Sabbatai Zevi and Jacob Frank. Opponents of Hasidim held that Hasidim viewed their rebbes in an idolatrous fashion."

 

[Rival]

This explains it. Not that I agree with it.

Misnagdim - Wikipedia

"The Vilna Gaon, Elijah ben Solomon Zalman, a prominent rabbi, galvanized opposition to Hasidic Judaism. He believed that the claims of miracles and visions made by Hasidic Jews were lies and delusions. A key point of opposition was that the Vilna Gaon maintained that greatness in Torah and observance must come through natural human efforts at Torah study without relying on any external "miracles" and "wonders", whereas the Ba'al Shem Tov was more focused on bringing encouragement and raising the morale of the Jewish people, especially following the Chmelnitzki pogroms (1648–1654) and the aftermath of disillusionment in the Jewish masses following the millennial excitement heightened by the failed messianic claims of Sabbatai Zevi and Jacob Frank. Opponents of Hasidim held that Hasidim viewed their rebbes in an idolatrous fashion."

Yeah I'd heard of this. Rabbi Pini Dunner did a shiur on it, on the Vilna Gaon. It's on YT. Worth checking out.

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes,actually the fact that Shneerson didn't rule from Jerusalem or bring all the Jews back to Israel DOES disqualify him. The Lubavitchers are our beloved heretics. I support them, actually, for their wonderful ability to bring Jews back to Judaism and encourage them in a spirit of love to do mitzvot. But all hopes of the Rebbe of blessed memory being the messiah died when he passed on.

How can they bring Jews back to Judaism if they are considered heretics. Everything you say makes me firmer in my belief that Jesus is the Messiah. Or was the Messiah, however you want to phrase it.

 

[Batya]

This is talking about converts.

The Torah itself repeatedly says 'Speak to the children of Israel'. If you want to be part of Israel and therefore have your place in their covenant, you need to convert.

What all is involved in converting, then?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

They don't all believe that though. Most of them don't, as far as I know.

Could be that they have changed since I was last involved in their shul. Those who still hold to the Rebbe being the Messiah, though loved, would still technically be heretics.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

How can they bring Jews back to Judaism if they are considered heretics. Everything you say makes me firmer in my belief that Jesus is the Messiah. Or was the Messiah, however you want to phrase it.

They teach Judaism because Judaism is obedience to the covenant, and Chabad is 100% behind that. They graciously and lovingly invite Jews to "do just one more mitzvah," welcoming all Jews regardless of their level of observance. They are gems.

 

[Harel13]

I can't believe this thread has been going on for 75 pages...

 

[dybmh]

I can't believe this thread has been going on for 75 pages...

We need a savior,
... from this thread.