How can a Jew reject Jesus as the Messiah?

[Harel13]

We need a savior,
... from this thread.

The final galut: Galut Thread.

 

[Skywalker]

I'm not saying he was saying peace, I was inserting an example of false prophecy that is given in the Tanakh to prove that lots of people did indeed follow false prophets and Jesus is no exception.

If Jesus were teaching people to follow the commandments those people would be Orthodox Jews, not anything else. They would have no need for Jesus.

The law does not override the need for the Messiah. The Old Covenant was given to Israel to set them apart from other nations.

 

[Rival]

The law does not override the need for the Messiah. The Old Covenant was given to Israel to set them apart from other nations.

You don't need a messiah to keep Torah.

 

[Skywalker]

You don't need a messiah to keep Torah.

One of the purposes of the Messiah was to teach us how to live. That's why Isaiah called him the wonderful counselor. I'm not saying Jesus being a teacher made him the Messiah, but him being a teacher doesn't override it. The two roles are not mutually exclusive. It's like how Jesus was called prophet, priest, and king.

 

[Skywalker]

You don't need a messiah to keep Torah.

How does the Torah override the need for a Messiah?

 

[TrueBeliever37]

How is this possible?

By misunderstanding what the Messiah was really supposed to do. When they put their own meanings on the xyz that he was supposed to accomplish. If they are incorrect on what God intended the xyz to be, then they think he failed.

 

[metis]

How does the Torah override the need for a Messiah?

Why are you assuming there's a supposed need for a "Messiah", unless one uses the term broadly?

 

[Skywalker]

Why are you assuming there's a supposed need for a "Messiah", unless one uses the term broadly?

The Old Testament talks about a Savior. How Did the Samaritan Woman Know About the Messiah?

In the law of Moses, we read of “the Prophet” that God would raise up (Dt. 18:15). There was to come the seed of woman (Gen. 3:15), the seed of Abraham (Gen. 22:18), and Shiloh of Judah (Gen. 49:10). Additionally, the coming Christ was typified in: the king-priest Melchizedek (Gen. 14:18-20; Heb. 7:15-17), the Passover lamb (Ex. 12; Jn. 1:29; 1 Cor. 5:7), the Day of Atonement (Lev. 16), and the brazen serpent in the wilderness (Num. 21:6-9; Jn. 3:14).

 

[Skywalker]

You don't need a messiah to keep Torah.

The Messiah didn't come so that we could keep Torah but so that we could come before God with a mediator.

 

[metis]

The Old Testament talks about a Savior. How Did the Samaritan Woman Know About the Messiah?

There have been numerous saviors in Jewish history, including "anointed ones", which is what "messiah" literally means.

 

[Skywalker]

There have been numerous saviors in Jewish history, including "anointed ones", which is what "messiah" literally means.

The Jews believe that they needed a Savior before Jesus came. The Messiah was to be someone who would die for their sins and the sins of the world. Isaiah 53:6

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

 

[metis]

The Jews believe that they needed a Savior before Jesus came. The Messiah was to be someone who would die for their sins and the sins of the world. Isaiah 53:6

Except that Isaiah has nothing directly to do with Jesus as it's focus in on returning back to eretz Israel from the Babylonian exile, plus also the need of following the Law-- all 613 of them: Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)

OTOH, Jesus can be viewed as being a messiah through using a spiritual approach.

 

[Skywalker]

Except that Isaiah has nothing directly to do with Jesus as it's focus in on returning back to eretz Israel from the Babylonian exile, plus also the need of following the Law-- all 613 of them: Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)

OTOH, Jesus can be viewed as being a messiah through using a spiritual approach.

The book of Isaiah isn't just about Israel and Babylonian captivity. The Astonishing Servant of Jehovah

Section one talks about salvation from the Babylonian captivity. Section two talks about salvation from sin. And section three, the last nine, salvation from the cursed earth. So the first has to do with the deliverance of Israel from Babylon. The middle one, as I said a lot earlier, has to do with the deliverance of sinners from sin. And the third one, the deliverance of the earth from the curse, the glorious coming Kingdom of Messiah.

So the middle one is the one we’re in. The middle section that we’re in runs from 49 to 57. And this middle one is the issue of forgiveness of sins, and it asks the question about salvation from sin. Not temporal deliverance from Babylon, and not the eschatological Kingdom to come in the future, but deliverance from sin. Now that poses a very important question. Don’t miss this; this would be worth waiting for. Why does God need to save His people from their sins? This is huge. This is huge.

And this was the issue with the Jews. They were not convinced that they needed, listen, a savior. They thought they just needed a righteous King. They thought that by virtue of their Abrahamic descent, by virtue of the Covenants and the promises and all of that, that they were in the place of blessing by virtue of their goodness and their religiosity, by virtue of their efforts at religious activities, ceremonies, rituals, attempts to obey the Law of God, they had earned their favor with God so they had it by race and they had it by merit.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The book of Isaiah isn't just about Israel and Babylonian captivity. The Astonishing Servant of Jehovah

Which is identified by Isaiah NUMEROUS times as Israel.

 

[metis]

The book of Isaiah isn't just about Israel and Babylonian captivity. The Astonishing Servant of Jehovah

That's a Christian "take" on Isaiah that true Biblical scholars well know is a sort of "reworking" of the text. For example, in "Jerome's Bible Commentary", it notes that Isaiah isn't referring to Jesus but that it sorta "prefigures" [the term the authors use] Jesus, but not in any direct manner.

Even though the Jewish and Christian scriptures are "linear" when it comes to time and events, there's often "circular" references used that make associations with previous events and certain figures as if there's a direct connection. Jesus, for example, is sometimes compared to Adam and Moses, and the Gospel writers often do this, thus the narratives are not to be taken literally but figuratively, and this would be understood by a discerning reader.

 

[metis]

Which is identified by Isaiah NUMEROUS times as Israel.

Exactly, and which makes much more sense in that the reason Israel was being punished was because of being careless in regards to the Law, thus being punished through exile, and then at the end of Isaiah there's the demand by haShem that they must obey the Law-- or else.

Obviously, that pattern cannot literally be applied to Jesus, but that by using a more circular pattern the issue of "salvation" can take on a meaning that's not literally the same as what Isaiah was referring to, but a parallel could be drawn dealing with "salvation" in a spiritual sense.

I'm sorta stumbling over words above, so does any of that make sense to you?

 

[TrueBeliever37]

You don't need a messiah to keep Torah.

Deuteronomy 18:15-19 - You were supposed to listen to him when he came.

Question: How can you keep Torah when there are commands that would require a temple?

 

[Skywalker]

That's a Christian "take" on Isaiah that true Biblical scholars well know is a sort of "reworking" of the text. For example, in "Jerome's Bible Commentary", it notes that Isaiah isn't referring to Jesus but that it sorta "prefigures" [the term the authors use] Jesus, but not in any direct manner.

Even though the Jewish and Christian scriptures are "linear" when it comes to time and events, there's often "circular" references used that make associations with previous events and certain figures as if there's a direct connection. Jesus, for example, is sometimes compared to Adam and Moses, and the Gospel writers often do this, thus the narratives are not to be taken literally but figuratively, and this would be understood by a discerning reader.

The Suffering Servant is described as one who would offer his life as an atoning for sins. Is Jesus God’s Servant or Son? Pt. 4

Jesus as the Suffering Servant of Yahweh

The second reason why pais is better rendered as servant is because the context of Acts makes it clear that Jesus is being referred to as the Suffering Servant mentioned in the book of Isaiah, the One whom God appointed and empowered by his Spirit to bring justice and salvation to all the nations and to offer his life as an atoning for sins. These prophecies are commonly referred to as the Servant Songs and are four in number (cf. Isaiah 42:1-7; 49:1-10; 50:4-10; 52:13-53:12).

 

[metis]

The Suffering Servant is described as one who would offer his life as an atoning for sins. Is Jesus God’s Servant or Son? Pt. 4

The Suffering Servant is Israel personified, thus having no direct connection to Jesus.

Again, serious theologians know this, but Pastor Joe may not.

Reminds me of something Billy Graham once wrote, namely that the Christian message is simple enough that even one dull-of-mind can understand but complicated enough to turn theologians' hair grey.

 

[rosends]

Deuteronomy 18:15-19 - You were supposed to listen to him when he came.

Question: How can you keep Torah when there are commands that would require a temple?

The Torah has many laws. If I don't own a car, I can follow American law even though I'm not buckling my seatbelt. I can keep the Torah by following the laws that apply to me based on who and where (and when) I am. And we continue reading and pay close attention to Deut 18:20-22.