How can a Jew reject Jesus as the Messiah?

[Rival]

also, the era of prophecy had ended 300 years earlier.

I was going to say this but then I read that it doesn't seem as simple as that.

 

[rosends]

I was going to say this but then I read that it doesn't seem as simple as that.

Well, nothing is ever simple, especially as it relates to Judaism

 

[Batya]

Jesus was not a recognised prophet, nor did he present himself to be accounted as one.

If indeed he was the messiah (I know you disagree), then he was a prophet like into Moses, he was considered a prophet by the people of the time as well. I'm sure many of the prophets in the tanach were not considered prophets at the time, in fact it is almost a hallmark of a true prophet to be rejected by the people

 

[Rival]

If indeed he was the messiah (I know you disagree), then he was a prophet like into Moses, he was considered a prophet by the people of the time as well. I'm sure many of the prophets in the tanach were not considered prophets at the time, in fact it is almost a hallmark of a true prophet to be rejected by the people

Many false prophets were also considered prophets by unlearned and gullible people as well, when they wanted to believe better things than what the real prophets were telling them ('They say 'peace, peace' when there is no peace'!), such as those who said Israel would not be exiled to Bavel. A real prophet needs to be tested first and has to have a prediction come true.

 

[rosends]

If indeed he was the messiah (I know you disagree), then he was a prophet like into Moses, he was considered a prophet by the people of the time as well. I'm sure many of the prophets in the tanach were not considered prophets at the time, in fact it is almost a hallmark of a true prophet to be rejected by the people

Do you happen to have any particular proof that the messiah is a prophet so that the logical conclusion you draw (if he was the messiah then he was a prophet) is substantiated?

Also, knowing how many prophets there were in the tanach, do you have any evidence that many were not considered prophets or that it was any sort of hallmark of a prophet to be rejected? Thanks.

 

[Batya]

Many false prophets were also considered prophets by unlearned and gullible people as well, when they wanted to believe better things than what the real prophets were telling them ('They say 'peace, peace' when there is no peace'!), such as those who said Israel would not be exiled to Bavel. A real prophet needs to be tested first and has to have a prediction come true.

Yeshua wasn't saying peace, peace, in fact part of the reason many rejected him was because he taught that the kingdom would not be immediately restored to Israel. The he is presented in modern Christianity would definitely make him a false prophet, on the basis of Deu 13 alone, for example. They teach that he was leading people away from the commandments.

 

[Rival]

Yeshua wasn't saying peace, peace, in fact part of the reason many rejected him was because he taught that the kingdom would not be immediately restored to Israel. The he is presented in modern Christianity would definitely make him a false prophet, on the basis of Deu 13 alone, for example. They teach that he was leading people away from the commandments.

I'm not saying he was saying peace, I was inserting an example of false prophecy that is given in the Tanakh to prove that lots of people did indeed follow false prophets and Jesus is no exception.

If Jesus were teaching people to follow the commandments those people would be Orthodox Jews, not anything else. They would have no need for Jesus.

 

[Batya]

Do you happen to have any particular proof that the messiah is a prophet so that the logical conclusion you draw (if he was the messiah then he was a prophet) is substantiated?

Also, knowing how many prophets there were in the tanach, do you have any evidence that many were not considered prophets or that it was any sort of hallmark of a prophet to be rejected? Thanks.

Many (I don't know if all) of the messianic figures (Joseph, Moses David) were prophets to some extent.
Jeremiah was rejected, thrown on prison, threatened with death, as was Micaiah, Eliyah, , perhaps not most, but some.

 

[rosends]

Many (I don't know if all) of the messianic figures (Joseph, Moses David) were prophets to some extent.

But that doesn't establish any relationship as proof. There were plenty of prophets who were not messianic figures (and the 3 you list are not all "messianic" and those who are, aren't in the same way as each other). In fact, most actual "messianic" figures were NOT prophets.

Jeremiah was rejected, thrown on prison, threatened with death, as was Micaiah, Eliyah, , perhaps not most, but some.

So reducing from "many" to 3 -- but were these three victimized because they "were not considered prophets at the time"? Or were they victimized because they were acknowledged as prophets but the people didn't like the content of their prophecy?

 

[Batya]

If Jesus were teaching people to follow the commandments, those people would be Orthodox Jews, not anything else. They would have no need for Jesus.

He was sent to all of Israel, and especially to the exiled house of Israel to restore then to the covenant. Tell me, how could Israel (northern kingdom who was divorced) return to the covenant, as per the Torah, seeing she went after other gods?

 

[rosends]

He was sent to all of Israel, and especially to the exiled house of Israel to restore then to the covenant. Tell me, how could Israel (northern kingdom who was divorced) return to the covenant, as per the Torah, seeing she went after other gods?

If you are referring to what I think you are, then this website answers your question

Did God Divorce Israel? What does Jeremiah Mean by the Promise of a "New Covenant"? | Outreach Judaism

 

[Batya]

So reducing from "many" to 3 -- but were these three victimized because they "were not considered prophets at the time"? Or were they victimized because they were acknowledged as prophets but the people didn't like the content of their prophecy?

Yeshua wad considered a prophet by many, hence the Pharisees hesitation to act against him ("because of the masses")

 

[Rival]

He was sent to all of Israel, and especially to the exiled house of Israel to restore then to the covenant. Tell me, how could Israel (northern kingdom who was divorced) return to the covenant, as per the Torah, seeing she went after other gods?

G-d will bring them back. They were not 'divorced' forever, as Scripture clearly states:

Thus says the LORD,
Who gives the sun for light by day
And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night,
Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar;
The LORD of hosts is His name:
If this fixed order departs
From before Me,” declares the LORD,
“Then the offspring of Israel also will cease
From being a nation before Me forever.”
Thus says the LORD,
“If the heavens above can be measured
And the foundations of the earth searched out below,
Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel
For all that they have done,” declares the LORD.

And

Behold I will gather them from all the lands where I have driven them with My anger and with My wrath and with great fury, and I will restore them to this place and I will cause them to dwell safely.
And they shall be My people, and I will be their God.

 

[Harel13]

Yeshua wad considered a prophet by many,

Odd that these "many" just happen to be a bunch of people who had no idea what prophecy looked or sounded like, considering it hadn't been around for several centuries...just sayin'.

 

[Batya]

G-d will bring them back. They were not 'divorced' forever, as Scripture clearly states:

Thus says the LORD,
Who gives the sun for light by day
And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night,
Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar;
The LORD of hosts is His name:
If this fixed order departs
From before Me,” declares the LORD,
“Then the offspring of Israel also will cease
From being a nation before Me forever.”
Thus says the LORD,
“If the heavens above can be measured
And the foundations of the earth searched out below,
Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel
For all that they have done,” declares the LORD.

And

Behold I will gather them from all the lands where I have driven them with My anger and with My wrath and with great fury, and I will restore them to this place and I will cause them to dwell safely.
And they shall be My people, and I will be their God.

Oh I absolutely agree that they were not divorced forever. I don't believe the NT seeks to exclude Jews in any way, it always has been and will be about Israel, Israel as a people is central to both the tanach and NT.

 

[Rival]

Oh I absolutely agree that they were not divorced forever. I don't believe the NT seeks to exclude Jews in any way, it always has been and will be about Israel, Israel as a people is central to both the tanach and NT.

So I'm confused about what your religion is.

 

[rosends]

Yeshua wad considered a prophet by many, hence the Pharisees hesitation to act against him ("because of the masses")

So we have gone from many to 3 to one who wasn't considered a prophet by many and still isn't.

 

[Batya]

If you are referring to what I think you are, then this website answers your question

Did God Divorce Israel? What does Jeremiah Mean by the Promise of a "New Covenant"? | Outreach Judaism

So I'm confused about what your religion is.

Okay, so, I don't call myself a Christian because many of their teachings are heresy according to the tanach and also NT. I keep the Torah to the best of my ability, keep the Sabbath, eat biblically clean, keep the feasts(as week as you can outside Israel, in the dispersion), believe in circumcision as a sign of the covenant, wear tsitsiyot, etc, etc. There is not really a good label, my family and I just seek to walk in the commandments, we also believe in Yeshua.

 

[Rival]

Okay, so, I don't call myself a Christian because many of their teachings are heresy according to the tanach and also NT. I keep the Torah to the best of my ability, keep the Sabbath, eat biblically clean, keep the feasts(as week as you can outside Israel, in the dispersion), believe in circumcision as a sign of the covenant, wear tsitsiyot, etc, etc. There is not really a good label, my family and I just seek to walk in the commandments, we also believe in Yeshua.

You realise the Torah is only for Jews. Are you a Jew?

If you do these things, why do you need Jesus?

 

[Batya]

You realise the Torah is only for Jews. Are you a Jew?

If you do these things, why do you need Jesus?

The Torah is not only for Jews, it is for Israel, and has always been open to those who would forsake their wickedness and idolatry and come to YHWH.
Do not let the son of the foreigner
Who has joined himself to theLord
Speak, saying,
“The Lord has utterly separated me from His people”;
Nor let the eunuch say,
“Here I am, a dry tree.”
4 For thus says the Lord:
“To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths,
And choose what pleases Me,
And hold fast My covenant,
5 Even to them I will give in My house
And within My walls a place and a name
Better than that of sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting name
That shall not be cut off.

6 “Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to theLord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of theLord, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant—
7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
Will be accepted on My altar;
For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”
8 The Lord God, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, says,
“Yet I will gather to him
Others besides those who are gathered to him.”
Isa 56:6-8