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How can a Jew reject Jesus as the Messiah?

S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
metis said:
Many theologians believe that it was first used as a sarcastic reference to the Church by outsiders, thus not used by the Church as a reference to itself until into the 2nd century.
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Thats why I don't believe that following Jesus is a new religion from the Torah, because it's a relationship not a religion and the term Christian didn't really exist until later on.
 
metis

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Skywalker said:
Thats why I don't believe that following Jesus is a new religion from the Torah, because it's a relationship not a religion and the term Christian didn't really exist until later on.
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This would largely depend on how one defines "religion". In my use of the term, I view Christianity as a religion separate, but still very much related, to Judaism, especially because both the leaderships are separate and because of the effects of a 2000 year separation that has been far less than harmonious.
 
Batya

Batya

Always Forward
dybmh said:
The term Christian is irrelevant.

From my perspective, now, in 2021, when I read about communion, it sounds like a different religious practice. I haven't encountered anything like it in modern Judaism or Tanach. Even if I look at it symbolically, there is nothing comparable.

And, as I said, when I look for comparable practices, I find them in other religions. Indwelling with Dionysus can involve drinking blood or wine.

Because of this, I cannot accept a Jewish prophet who adovactes for this literal or metaphorical practice without something from a Jewish source which gives it credibility.
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Actually, I think that the whole communion idea is a misconstrued version of what originally intended. I believe Yeshua was actually referring to Passover, not something that was done weekly or however often.
 
S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
metis said:
This would largely depend on how one defines "religion". In my use of the term, I view Christianity as a religion separate, but still very much related, to Judaism, especially because both the leaderships are separate and because of the effects of a 2000 year separation that has been far less than harmonious.
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That shows that the idea of Christian and Jewish being mutually exclusive is related to the separation between Christianity and Judaism, and not anything inherent about following Jesus.
 
metis

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Skywalker said:
That shows that the idea of Christian and Jewish being mutually exclusive is related to the separation between Christianity and Judaism, and not anything inherent about following Jesus.
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"Jewish" is a nationality, not a religion. Nor are they necessarily "exclusive".
 
S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
metis said:
It is not. There are numerous Jews who are Christian, some whom are Buddhists, etc.

Where there is some interplay is that the theology of Judaism has it that if one is a Jew, then they fall under Jewish Law: Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments) There's also the issue of "return" in regards to Israel.
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Jewish is an ethnicity, a religion, and a culture. Jewish is a nationality if one considers Israelis to be Jewish. but diaspora ethnic groups use different terminology from their country of origin. For example, the term African applies to African immigrants, but it's generally not used for African Americans.
 
S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
dybmh said:
The term Christian is irrelevant.

From my perspective, now, in 2021, when I read about communion, it sounds like a different religious practice. I haven't encountered anything like it in modern Judaism or Tanach. Even if I look at it symbolically, there is nothing comparable.

And, as I said, when I look for comparable practices, I find them in other religions. Indwelling with Dionysus can involve drinking blood or wine.

Because of this, I cannot accept a Jewish prophet who adovactes for this literal or metaphorical practice without something from a Jewish source which gives it credibility.
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Communion is a different practice from ceremonies done in Mithraism. It can't be compared to remembering Jesus. Jesus Vs Mithra – Debunking The Alleged Parallels | Reasons for Jesus

13. His religion had a eucharist or “Lord’s Supper,” at which Mithra said, “He who shall not eat of my body nor drink of my blood so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved.”
It took me some digging to discover the actual origin of this saying. Godwin says that the reference is from a “Persian Mithraic text,” but does not give the dating of this text, nor does he say where it was found, nor is any documentation offered. I finally found something in Vermaseren [Verm.MSG, 103] — the source of this saying is a medieval text; and the speaker is not Mithras, but Zarathustra!

Although Vermaseren suggested that this might be the formula that Justin referred to (but did not describe at all) as being part of the Mithraic “Eucharist,” there is no evidence for the saying prior to this medieval text.

Critics try to give the rite some ancestry by claiming that it derives from an Iranian Mithraic ceremony using a psychadelic plant called Haoma, but they are clearly grasping at straws and adding speculations of meaning in order to make this rite seem similar to the Eucharist.

This piece of “evidence” is far, far too late to be useful — except as possible proof that Mithraism borrowed from Christianity! (Christianity of course was in Persia far earlier than this medieval text; see Martin Palmer’s Jesus Sutras for details.)

The closest thing that Mithraism had to a “Last Supper” was the taking of staples (bread, water, wine and meat) by the Mithraic initiates, which was perhaps a celebration of the meal that Mithra had with the sun deity after slaying the bull. However, the meal of the initiates is usually seen as no more than a general fellowship meal of the sort that was practiced by groups all over the Roman world — from religious groups to funeral societies. [MS.348]
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R

rational experiences

Veteran Member
O God earth. Man human theist said planet is an entity. But created as a creator it's own gas spirits. It's owned heavens.

Against satanic origin sin cosmos a God planet plus sun thesis.

Burning consuming bodies origin of sin. Fallen O bodies self destroying

A science human stated thesis.

Said a percentage of O God bodies rebelled and are suns.

Some planets in universe not stone.

Galaxy says O sun should have own more planets.

O earth not a God man. Was theoried by a man about God

Word use. Explanation. Feedback encoded by machine. Brain mind disturbed did not use words descriptive analogies correctly.

Possessed by science causes AI effect.

Known.

Said God scattered the language.

Meaning brain mind effect.

Most humans can say no man is God. Possessed AI machine psyche cause effect however cannot comprehend.

That O energy is held only as mass.

O mass a God in held state.

Science gains energy from mass only.

Then thinks UFO.

Says energy in space.

Which is planet O mass core owned.

Even the sun only core mass released in O God earth attack.

Attack earth stopped earth sealed flood.

UFO gets removed by vacuum.

Science tried to reinvent natural light
O science factored O whole not half.

UFO core put extra mass into burning gases as I will invent light myself as if it never existed.

So he doubled up on burning gases.

As a human did not invent the light constant.
 
S

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
dybmh said:
And what did he do?
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Jesus died for our sins on the cross. When people commit crimes, they go to jail. Even the most fair judge has to be just. That's why Jesus took our place on the cross. It's because Jesus is love, but He is also just.
 
IndigoChild5559

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Skywalker said:
Even though not everyone who believes in Jesus has a conviction to follow Jewish law, it's not incompatible with following Jesus and isn't the reason that I believe people reject Jesus. I believe that people reject Jesus because believing that we need a Savior isn't an easy truth.
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I just successfully exposed the illogic of this position. Simply repeating it does nothing to answer me.
 
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