How Can We Identify True Worship?

[jeager106]

Well said Saint!

 

[Deeje]

@Deeje[/USER] you really can't have it both ways. If nobody deluded knows that they are then nobody knows for real if they aren't deluded. Do you understand?

Well, isn't that the whole point of 2 Thess 2:9-12? Why does God allow people to be deluded?
"...because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness." (ESV)

Do you understand? Someone who loves the truth will come to Jehovah....those who don't will get what they ask for....their heart's desire.

Jehovah does not want those who despise his truth or his servants who are appointed by him to care for his sheep. As a reader of hearts he allows us all to believe whatever our hearts incline us to believe. That way we have a judgment that is dependent upon who we really are in God's eyes...not necessarily the person "we" think we are.

Come the judgment, the delusion will be exposed. (Matt 7:21-23) We will all be where we have chosen to be for our own reasons. God knows those who truly belong to him.....sometimes we do not.

 

[Deeje]

Also, if you go around insulting other people by telling them their beliefs are corrupt, a lie from Satan, "the world" is evil and is controlled by Satan, they're delusional, they're not God's children because they're not part of some small cult, the end of the world is coming soon and they're on the side of evil, etc. you're going to get negative reactions from people. That's anti-social behavior and anti-social behavior has negative social consequences. It also creates a self-fulfilling prophecy in that such people already believe that they are "persecuted by the world" and then their anti-social, nasty behavior causes people to dislike them, which only reinforces their already held presumption. Unfortunate that they cannot think clearly enough to see it from a more objective point of view.

Funny....but that is exactly what Jesus did....why do you think the Jews wanted to be rid of him? The only toes he stepped on were the ones who needed to be stepped on.

There is truth and there is falsehood.....how will people ever know the difference unless they exposed to both? We have to make a choice and soon. Hearts are speaking to God every day, just by how we think and act. Nothing escapes his notice...that is why his judgment is perfect. (Heb 4:13)

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Funny....but that is exactly what Jesus did....why do you think the Jews wanted to be rid of him? The only toes he stepped on were the ones who needed to be stepped on.

There is truth and there is falsehood.....how will people ever know the difference unless they exposed to both? We have to make a choice and soon. Hearts are speaking to God every day, just by how we think and act. Nothing escapes his notice...that is why his judgment is perfect. (Heb 4:13)

Yeah, I know that's what Jesus did. He was (if he existed) the prototypical doomsday cult leader, after all:

To be fair, Jesus isn't all that kind in the NT, himself. He makes demons go into a herd of pigs which run off a cliff (animal cruelty), he curses a fig tree (that's just mean), he's rude to his mother, he tells a parable that ends with a command to bring disobedient people to him and kill them in front of him, he encourages self-mutilation, he encourages apocalyptic end of the world beliefs, he tells his followers that they must love him more than their own parents and children (that's extremely dysfunctional), he encouraged his followers to leave their families behind and follow him (that's abandonment), he told a person who had to bury his father to forget about that and join his traveling cult, he's racist towards non-Jews who approach him for help and only helps them after they degrade themselves before him, etc.

The actual Jesus of the Gospel stories is more akin to Charles Manson, David Koresh or Jim Jones than the sanitized, romanticized version we're used to hearing about. No surprise that many of these modern cult leaders either claim to be the second coming of Christ or are heavily influenced by him. He's a prototypical narcissistic charismatic cult leader with a megalomanical bent who encourages his followers to disassociate from society and their own families and formed a sort of traveling commune (creates an insular setting of reinforcement of belief that often turns into a trap), the world outside of the cult is to be shunned as it is viewed as being under the influence of an evil force (promotes paranoia and distrust of outsiders and outside points of view), he taught that the end of the world is nigh and was supposed to have happened at any moment (promotes more paranoia and fanaticism), malevolent spiritual beings are believed to be around every corner (promotes delusion), sick or ill people were believed to be possessed by demons (promotes delusion and a shunning of actual medicine), etc.

If Jesus was wandering around today, we'd think he was a crank. Most of us would, anyway.

It makes me recall a funny memory. One time I was in line at the store and I was wearing one of my Charles Manson shirts and this dude says to me "Jesus loves you". I just chuckled. I should've responded with "Jesus is just the world's best known cult leader" and/or "Charlie and Jesus are more far more alike than you think".

 

[Deeje]

I can respect that. But...any strong religious opinion will always be someone's target, whether your Baptist ,Mormon or Jehovah's witness etc.

True...and so we need to be able to show from the scriptures why we believe what we do and open those beliefs up to scrutiny and see if they harmonize with the rest of the Bible.

I will gladly do that and discuss any scriptural issue. I am not about arguing for argument's sake, I am about telling the truth. When something goes contrary to scripture, I want to let people know about it so that they can evaluate the information and check the scriptures for themselves.

 

[Deeje]

Yeah, I know that's what Jesus did. He was (if he existed) the prototypical doomsday cult leader, after all:

Did you believe he was real when you were Catholic?

I can see by your comment that you have no need to get into his good books at the moment? Your choice of course....but its not a good idea to bite the hand that is trying to save you.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Did you believe he was real when you were Catholic?

At the beginning, sure. But then I started to doubt, consider things logically and do some reading.

I can see by your comment that you have no need to get into his good books at the moment? Your choice of course....but its not a good idea to bite the hand that is trying to save you.

The only person who can save me is myself, through taking positive action to change my life.

 

[David1967]

True...and so we need to be able to show from the scriptures why we believe what we do and open those beliefs up to scrutiny and see if they harmonize with the rest of the Bible.

I will gladly do that and discuss any scriptural issue. I am not about arguing for argument's sake, I am about telling the truth. When something goes contrary to scripture, I want to let people know about it so that they can evaluate the information and check the scriptures for themselves.

Agreed. Apologetics is very important. The problem I see (my own denomination included) is that people generally study in a way supportive of their particular denomination. When studying scripture without denominational literature, I often find that some scripture doesn't always fit with what is taught. Sometimes our theology gives us a square peg to try and fit into a round hole.

 

[Deeje]

At the beginning, sure. But then I started to doubt, consider things logically and do some reading.

Satan loves doubt...it is one of his favorite weapons......the other is divided loyalties. Either way, he gets you, creating a barrier between you and your Creator.
I have seen a lot of indecision in your posts regarding your position spiritually speaking....so how do you ever come to any conclusions about anything? (Eph 4:13, 15)
Swithering between satan and Yahweh is a precarious place to be found if Jesus truly is the judge of all.

The only person who can save me is myself, through taking positive action to change my life.

Can't argue with that.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Satan loves doubt...it is one of his favorite weapons......the other is divided loyalties. Either way, he gets you, creating a barrier between you and your Creator.
I have seen a lot of indecision in your posts regarding your position spiritually speaking....so how do you ever come to any conclusions about anything? (Eph 4:13, 15)
Swithering between satan and Yahweh is a precarious place to be found if Jesus truly is the judge of all.

I don't believe in Satan or Yahweh. I told you that before that I'm agnostic. The closest to a deity I believe in is Kali, but that's in a pantheistic/panentheistic fashion. She is my preferred spiritual conceptualization of the Cosmos. I believe in Satanism/Luciferianism, but in a philosophical or archetypal way only - i.e. the Satanism part is an internal psychological thing and a way of viewing and approaching society, but I do not believe there is a literal "devil" to worship or revere. I don't really pray to anything or do rituals.

I don't believe in Jesus so I'm hardly worried about what a mythological character may think about me. I'm more concerned about getting on with my life.

 

[Deeje]

Agreed. Apologetics is very important. The problem I see (my own denomination included) is that people generally study in a way supportive of their particular denomination. When studying scripture without denominational literature, I often find that some scripture doesn't always fit with what is taught. Sometimes our theology gives us a square peg to try and fit into a round hole.

You know, that is how I always felt about my own church. We were never shown any kind of counter arguments to accepted church doctrine. Yet the scriptures that were read seemed to mock the church as if it had no idea that they were breaking God's law on a regular basis.

My father fought in WW2 and the church always had a high regard for the armed services and always had clergy in the military. The churches were even used as recruiting stations for enlistment. I always struggled with this. How could the church advocate what Christ condemned? The war even pitted Catholic against Catholic and Protestant against Protestant when this is not a position a Christian should ever promote. (1 John 4:20, 21)

Jesus never meddled in politics because he said that his kingdom was "NO part of this world". Yet the churches made themselves very much a part of this world by always having a strong presence with world leaders in supporting their agendas. (James 4:4)

These are just a couple of square pegs I struggled with. Do you have specifics yourself?

 

[Deeje]

I don't believe in Satan or Yahweh. I told you that before that I'm agnostic. The closest to a deity I believe in is Kali, but that's in a pantheistic/panentheistic fashion. She is my preferred spiritual conceptualization of the Cosmos. I believe in Satanism/Luciferianism, but in a philosophical or archetypal way only - i.e. the Satanism part is an internal psychological thing and a way of viewing and approaching society, but I do not believe there is a literal "devil" to worship or revere. I don't really pray to anything or do rituals.

I don't believe in Jesus so I'm hardly worried about what a mythological character may think about me. I'm more concerned about getting on with my life.

And that is entirely your choice to make. We are all granted that freedom. Though some might see it as 'enough rope'....

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

And that is entirely your choice to make. We are all granted that freedom. Though some might see it as 'enough rope'....

Oh, stop it with the melodramatics. It's quite annoying and condescending.

 

[David1967]

You know, that is how I always felt about my own church. We were never shown any kind of counter arguments to accepted church doctrine. Yet the scriptures that were read seemed to mock the church as if it had no idea that they were breaking God's law on a regular basis.

My father fought in WW2 and the church always had a high regard for the armed services and always had clergy in the military. The churches were even used as recruiting stations for enlistment. I always struggled with this. How could the church advocate what Christ condemned? The war even pitted Catholic against Catholic and Protestant against Protestant when this is not a position a Christian should ever promote. (1 John 4:20, 21)

Jesus never meddled in politics because he said that his kingdom was "NO part of this world". Yet the churches made themselves very much a part of this world by always having a strong presence with world leaders in supporting their agendas. (James 4:4)

These are just a couple of square pegs I struggled with. Do you have specifics yourself?

Hmm. Well let's see. Being raised in a fundamentalist type of denomination, most of what to me were square pegs had to do with denominational superiority and eternal torture in hell which I have a hard time with still. That being said, presently discussions are much more open.

 

[Katzpur]

I don't believe that I am in a deluded state.If I was deluded I would be convinced that I was correct in all my opinions.

Right on!

On the contrary I consider myself very much a work in progress.

And that's what I like about you. We're all pretty much in the same boat, and it takes humility to recognize that.

I am curious though. I know you are a Jehovah's witness. I have no problem with that in itself. Why so reluctant to just come out and say it?

Well, I've been told that Jehovah's Witnesses aren't supposed to be posting here. That would probably be why.

 

[Deeje]

Hmm. Well let's see. Being raised in a fundamentalist type of denomination, most of what to me were square pegs had to do with denominational superiority and eternal torture in hell which I have a hard time with still. That being said, presently discussions are much more open.

I struggled with the whole hell-fire thing too. It seemed more devilish to me than something a loving God would do.

When I saw in the Bible that the dead are not alive somewhere else but are just peacefully "sleeping", it was a comfort to me. (Eccl 9:5, 10; John 11:11-14)

Having lost our father at a young age it was always upsetting to my sister and I that he was somewhere in a distressed state wanting to be with his wife and family and not being able to. I knew what we were feeling so if he was alive and not able to be with us, I know it would be torture for him. I wondered how heaven could ever be a happy place if our loved ones were seeing what is happening to us down here and not being able to do a thing to prevent bad things from happening to us.

I also saw how God felt about the Israelites who fell to worshipping the Baals and began to sacrifice their children in the fire to false gods.
This is God's response....
Jer 7:31
"And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind." (ESV)

If burning their children in a fire was not something that would even enter God's mind, why would he think to do such a thing to his own children?

It is against his perfect justice to torture anyone for any reason and it is not loving to give sinners no opportunity to repent. The punishment does not fit the crime at all.
When you really get to know Jehovah, you can see how twisted the churches' teachings have become.

I see that the 'ol fire and brimstone preaching has diminished somewhat these days. Some have put a hose on hell and changed their thinking on the issue.

There is no doubt that "hell' exists...but what does the Bible say it is?

 

[kerndog]

Right on!

And that's what I like about you. We're all pretty much in the same boat, and it takes humility to recognize that.

Well, I've been told that Jehovah's Witnesses aren't supposed to be posting here. That would probably be why.

We are warned to the dangers of the internet, it is very much like a power tool, if your are careful, it is a very usefull and time saving tool, used carelessly , it can bring disaster, SPIRITUALLY AND PHYSICALLY. We are also warned about the amount of time we get involved with it, it CAN be a real obsession for a lot of people, that is why i am on here very sparingly, much more usefull things to spend my free time on.....BUT.....like Deeje, if just one thing the bible shows, helps just 1 person, then we are happy !

 

[savagewind]

Well, isn't that the whole point of 2 Thess 2:9-12? Why does God allow people to be deluded?
"...because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness." (ESV)

Do you understand? Someone who loves the truth will come to Jehovah....those who don't will get what they ask for....their heart's desire.

Now, be honest. I hear you have said more than once that someone who loves the truth will go to the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses to obey their governing body about truth.

Jehovah does not want

Prove it by scripture. I can prove by scripture that is a false statement. Romans 11:33

those who despise his truth

One truth? Which one would that be?

or his servants who are appointed by him to care for his sheep.

Why not tell us once and for all why to disagree with the governing body of JWs on a certain point of scripture is despising them?

As a reader of hearts he allows us all to believe whatever our hearts incline us to believe. That way we have a judgment that is dependent upon who we really are in God's eyes...not necessarily the person "we" think we are.

OK. The people on forum have said again and again that very thing. GB didn't tell them that. But you will be judged on who you think the governing body is. We have and will escape that judgement.

Come the judgment, the delusion will be exposed. (Matt 7:21-23)

You say we are delusional but don't know it. But our delusion is that we DO NOT believe in the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses. You say that you are not delusional believing in them. See how it is YOU who is actually believing in something?*,

We will all be where we have chosen to be for our own reasons. God knows those who truly belong to him.....sometimes we do not.

How can you deny that you belong to the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses? Matthew 6:24 No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other

*delusion: an idiosyncratic belief or impression that is firmly maintained despite being contradicted by what is generally accepted as reality or rational argument

 

[savagewind]

If to disagree really does mean to despise, then on the one hand you have Abraham despising Jehovah before fire came down on Sodom, and on the other hand you have the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses training people to despise almost everyone who has ever existed.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

I also saw how God felt about the Israelites who fell to worshipping the Baals and began to sacrifice their children in the fire to false gods.
This is God's response....
Jer 7:31
"And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind." (ESV)

If burning their children in a fire was not something that would even enter God's mind, why would he think to do such a thing to his own children?

It is against his perfect justice to torture anyone for any reason and it is not loving to give sinners no opportunity to repent. The punishment does not fit the crime at all.
When you really get to know Jehovah, you can see how twisted the churches' teachings have become.

First off, you're comparing the Israelites sacrificing their children to baal with God punishing the wicked. God did not command or even think about sacrificing children to Himself or any other god.

Second, not everyone is God's child.

Jn 8:41-44 (ESVST) 41 You are doing the works your father did." They said to him, " We were not born of sexual immorality. We have one Father —even God." 42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. 43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him.

Rom 8:8-9 (ESVST) 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

Since God has perfect justice, He can punish in any way He deems fit, couldn't He? Should He be limited to only the justice we can accept that He should have?