How can you be a True Christian™ if you don't take the Eden story literally?

[ppp]

And too bad some people fill it with sex? What is she talking about?

It's the typical abrahamic stuff. Sex is base or negatively animalistic or something. And that any sex that does not comport with the strictures of their book and tenets is unsavory in some manner or another. It's the standard baseless derogation of the physical world.

 

[metis]

I believe different times require different criteria. We are in the end time so we require end time criteria. As for those who went before, I believe with re-incarnation they are with us now. Everyone has heard the gospel at least once.

I've lived through many "end times" and yet we're still here.

I don't believe in reincarnation but neither do I believe that it's wrong, so whatever happens, happens, imo.

Not everyone has heard the Gospel.

 

[CG Didymus]

It's the typical abrahamic stuff. Sex is base or negatively animalistic or something. And that any sex that does not comport with the strictures of their book and tenets is unsavory in some manner or another. It's the standard baseless derogation of the physical world.

With things like men being able to have multiple wives, I think that could be an indicator, (evidence), that the people in a particular culture made up the moral rules and not the supposed one true God. Or... God couldn't get it straight on how many wives was okay for a man to have. Even the Baha'i prophet couldn't get it right. He said two, but he himself had three. But Baha'is say that's okay, because he was going by what God said was alright for Islamic men. Then it sounds like Abdul Baha said a man should only have one wife? But whatever... Maybe Baha'is can explain all this...

The Baha’i justification for Baha’u’llah marrying his first cousin and a woman given to him by a Babi in addition to the teenager he first married has always been “It was a different time” or “He was following the rules of Islam.”​

​

The first issue with this justification is that the Bab reduced the number of wives allowed to two, and since Baha’u’llah was a Babi when he married Gawhar (the third wife) doing so violated the law of the Bab he should have been adhering too.​

​

The second issue is that while most Baha’is don’t know this ‘Abdu’l-Baha’s explanation that when Baha’u’llah said two wives in the Aqdas he secretly meant one is an explanation which was also retroactively applied to Islam’s four wife limit by Shoghi Effendi:​

​

“Concerning the question of plurality of wives among the Muslims: This practice current in all Islamic countries does not conform with the explicit teachings of the Prophet Muhammad. For the Qur’an, while permitting the marriage of more than one wife, positively states that this is conditioned upon absolute justice. And since absolute justice is impossible to enforce, it follows, therefore, that polygamy cannot and should not be practiced. The Qur’an, therefore, enjoins monogamy and not polygamy as has hitherto been understood.” (From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, January 29, 1939, in Lights of Guidance, no. 1672)​

​

In light of this the justification of following the customs of his (Baha’u’llah) time even in regards to Islam is not true, since Shoghi Effendi argues Islam advocated for monogamy.​

​

As such Baha’u’llah, according to Shoghi Effendi’s commentary, did not understand the Qur’an or was disobeying it. Furthermore, Baha’u’llah is meant to be the Almighty. The argument he HAD to follow custom and marry his first cousin certainly is not in keeping with the view he has command over all creation. Maybe one could argue as Baha’u’llah was superhuman he could uphold absolute justice this doesn’t fit the facts, which are that in Israel Baha’u’llah lived with his cousin in an opulent Mansion while his first wife was kept in the city, and his third wife he abandoned in the Ottoman Empire for years before summoning her to join him in Israel.​

​

As such the only REAL justification for Baha’u’llah having three wives is that he felt he could do whatever he wanted and that no rules applied to him. He was telling others to do as he said but not as he did. “God works in mysterious ways” indeed​

 

[Audie]

With things like men being able to have multiple wives, I think that could be an indicator, (evidence), that the people in a particular culture made up the moral rules and not the supposed one true God. Or... God couldn't get it straight on how many wives was okay for a man to have. Even the Baha'i prophet couldn't get it right. He said two, but he himself had three. But Baha'is say that's okay, because he was going by what God said was alright for Islamic men. Then it sounds like Abdul Baha said a man should only have one wife? But whatever... Maybe Baha'is can explain all this...

The Baha’i justification for Baha’u’llah marrying his first cousin and a woman given to him by a Babi in addition to the teenager he first married has always been “It was a different time” or “He was following the rules of Islam.”​

​

The first issue with this justification is that the Bab reduced the number of wives allowed to two, and since Baha’u’llah was a Babi when he married Gawhar (the third wife) doing so violated the law of the Bab he should have been adhering too.​

​

The second issue is that while most Baha’is don’t know this ‘Abdu’l-Baha’s explanation that when Baha’u’llah said two wives in the Aqdas he secretly meant one is an explanation which was also retroactively applied to Islam’s four wife limit by Shoghi Effendi:​

​

“Concerning the question of plurality of wives among the Muslims: This practice current in all Islamic countries does not conform with the explicit teachings of the Prophet Muhammad. For the Qur’an, while permitting the marriage of more than one wife, positively states that this is conditioned upon absolute justice. And since absolute justice is impossible to enforce, it follows, therefore, that polygamy cannot and should not be practiced. The Qur’an, therefore, enjoins monogamy and not polygamy as has hitherto been understood.” (From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer, January 29, 1939, in Lights of Guidance, no. 1672)​

​

In light of this the justification of following the customs of his (Baha’u’llah) time even in regards to Islam is not true, since Shoghi Effendi argues Islam advocated for monogamy.​

​

As such Baha’u’llah, according to Shoghi Effendi’s commentary, did not understand the Qur’an or was disobeying it. Furthermore, Baha’u’llah is meant to be the Almighty. The argument he HAD to follow custom and marry his first cousin certainly is not in keeping with the view he has command over all creation. Maybe one could argue as Baha’u’llah was superhuman he could uphold absolute justice this doesn’t fit the facts, which are that in Israel Baha’u’llah lived with his cousin in an opulent Mansion while his first wife was kept in the city, and his third wife he abandoned in the Ottoman Empire for years before summoning her to join him in Israel.​

​

As such the only REAL justification for Baha’u’llah having three wives is that he felt he could do whatever he wanted and that no rules applied to him. He was telling others to do as he said but not as he did. “God works in mysterious ways” indeed​

Kind of repulsive, actually

 

[paarsurrey]

How can you be a True Christian™ if you don't take the Eden story literally?

Did Jesus/Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah ever say that Eden story is to be believed literally, please?
If yes then kindly quote from him in this connection, please, right?
If not then one can be a true follower of him without believing in the story of Eden literally, please. Right?

Regards

 

[Trailblazer]

But whatever... Maybe Baha'is can explain all this...

Maybe @Truthseeker can explain it if he can tear himself away from watching Trump go down on TV.

Meanwhile I can add my two cents, what I know, although @Truthseeker knows more than I do by a long-shot.

 

[Trailblazer]

Even the Baha'i prophet couldn't get it right. He said two, but he himself had three. But Baha'is say that's okay, because he was going by what God said was alright for Islamic men.

That is correct according to my understanding. Since Baha'u'llah was a Muslim, not a Baha'i, He was bound by Muslim laws, not Baha'i Laws.

As such the only REAL justification for Baha’u’llah having three wives is that he felt he could do whatever he wanted and that no rules applied to him. He was telling others to do as he said but not as he did. “God works in mysterious ways” indeed

Baha'u'llah was bound by the laws of Islam that permit four wives so he was not breaking any laws.

I suppose you think that Baha'u'llah had that many wives so he could have more sex. That just shows how your mind works, on one track.
Muslim men did not have a lot of wives so they could have more sex and Baha'u'llah certainly did not have time for sex, but you are going to imagine whatever you want to imagine.

Why does Islam allow many wives?

That context was a period of tragedy in Islam after the battle of Uhud, when dozens of men from the still formative Muslim community in Medina were killed in one day. Numerous women and children were left without support. To deal with this problem, Allah revealed the verse permitting men to be polygamous.

Global Connections . How Many Wives? - PBS​

 

[CG Didymus]

Kind of repulsive, actually

Yes, but can we reject all the good things he said just because of a few things that aren't so good? For me, yes. He's supposed to be the perfect reflection of God and in communication with God. Then two of the wives and I think all of their kids, this is Baha'u'llah's kids, got kick out of the Baha'i Faith?

Naturally, when I was taught about the Baha'i Faith by Baha'is, they only told me the good stuff. We are all one and are going to live in peace and harmony. And all we have to do is follow a few simple God-given rules.

 

[Audie]

Yes, but can we reject all the good things he said just because of a few things that aren't so good? For me, yes. He's supposed to be the perfect reflection of God and in communication with God. Then two of the wives and I think all of their kids, this is Baha'u'llah's kids, got kick out of the Baha'i Faith?

Naturally, when I was taught about the Baha'i Faith by Baha'is, they only told me the good stuff. We are all one and are going to live in peace and harmony. And all we have to do is follow a few simple God-given rules.

Fair enough.

But theres no special wisdom. Nothing original.
So much to wade through looking for something.

 

[CG Didymus]

Fair enough.

But theres no special wisdom. Nothing original.
So much to wade through looking for something.

I wasn't being serious about the rules being simple. Or that they are God-given. Like other religions that seek converts, Baha'is are told to go out and "teach" the Faith. So, they become like salespeople, trying to sell you their product.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I wasn't being serious about the rules being simple. Or that they are God-given. Like other religions that seek converts, Baha'is are told to go out and "teach" the Faith. So, they become like salespeople, trying to sell you their product.

The Amway of religions.

 

[Truthseeker]

Maybe @Truthseeker can explain it if he can tear himself away from watching Trump go down on TV.

That's not the only way I'm wasting my time. Well, actually I'm more of a Jack Smith twitter watcher and Glenn Kirshner video watcher as far as Trump goes.

 

[Truthseeker]

That is correct according to my understanding. Since Baha'u'llah was a Muslim, not a Baha'i, He was bound by Muslim laws, not Baha'i Laws.

Technically he was a Babi when he got his 2nd and 3rd wives, but that law by the Bab was not in operation apparently. It's similar to today when the Universal House of Justice decides when Baha'u'llah's laws go into operation. For instance the Huququ'llah law on our possession didn't come into effect until the 1990s. @CG Didymus take note.

That context was a period of tragedy in Islam after the battle of Uhud, when dozens of men from the still formative Muslim community in Medina were killed in one day. Numerous women and children were left without support. To deal with this problem, Allah revealed the verse permitting men to be polygamous.

That is correct. That was the occasion when the number of wives were ordained. Also see this:

In fact, at the advent of Islam the number of wives was set at a maximum of 4 to counteract the then prevalent practice of having large numbers of wives. In pre-Islamic Arabian society a man could and often did have 10-20 wives.

Islam, polygamy and family planning in Nigeria - PubMed.

 

[Ponder This]

This isn't relevant to anyone outside of the Abrahamic religions. Do you agree?

From the point of view of Christianity, it is relevant to everyone, including those not part of an Abrahamic religion.

Every one knows what is right and what is wrong according to the rules of society or country. It does not require a God's decision. And if a person has done right, not even a God can deny him the rewards, the religion that the person follows is immaterial. That is how it is in theist Hinduism. I am an atheist Hindu. I do not believe in existence of God or soul.

Not everyone knows what is right and wrong according to the rules of society or country. In fact, entrapment occurs when a law enforcement agent or agent of the state induces a defendant to engage in a criminal act. But even if a person did what is right according to society and country, there is no guarantee the person would be rewarded by society or country. He could be denied those material rewards.
The spiritual is not the material. The reward of the spirit is of the spirit.

I think there's enough variety in Christianity that at some point a line has to be drawn, and the people below it are not "true" Christians. Except, the line is drawn by those that think that they are the "true" Christians... and they do take the Eden story and the Fall literally. And they leave off people who sincerely believe like JW's, Mormon, some liberal Christian Churches, Seventh-Day Adventists and some might even put Catholics on that list.

Now even among those that have the "right" beliefs, might not be sincere. And they don't make the cut either. But, for me, now on the outside looking in, sincerity was always a problem and there was no way to tell who really was sincere about being a "true" believer. It was too easy to just appear to be a good Christian.

Indeed, the ultimate judgement of sincerity is God's and people do draw lines here and there to separate one from another. But speaking sensibly, who knows the Eden story and the Fall literally? If it is necessary to know this story word for word, surely there are so very few that qualify as to make the claim of "Christian" a lie in almost every case. A person who is true is honest and if he calls himself "Christian" it is because he truly believes that he is. Moreover, the story is not the event and neither the event nor the story is the spirit. To know the story is not to know the event, nor is to know the event to know the spirit. Yet the spirit is the essence of the story and of the event. The finger points at the moon, but the finger is not the moon.

 

[YoursTrue]

I've lived through many "end times" and yet we're still here.

I don't believe in reincarnation but neither do I believe that it's wrong, so whatever happens, happens, imo.

Not everyone has heard the Gospel.

In a war such as WWII, not everyone survives either.

 

[YoursTrue]

Some believe in the inevitability of evolution and death of the individual, so judgment by God doesn't come into the issue.

 

[CG Didymus]

Technically he was a Babi when he got his 2nd and 3rd wives, but that law by the Bab was not in operation apparently. It's similar to today when the Universal House of Justice decides when Baha'u'llah's laws go into operation. For instance the Huququ'llah law on our possession didn't come into effect until the 1990s. @CG Didymus take note.

That is correct. That was the occasion when the number of wives were ordained. Also see this:

In fact, at the advent of Islam the number of wives was set at a maximum of 4 to counteract the then prevalent practice of having large numbers of wives. In pre-Islamic Arabian society a man could and often did have 10-20 wives.

Islam, polygamy and family planning in Nigeria - PubMed.

If the Bab's laws from God didn't go into effect, what good were they? And did they ever go into effect? But besides that, Baha'u'llah and the other Babi's new the laws but kept the Islamic laws instead? But my point was that I think there is evidence that maybe it's the people and culture play a big part in making up the moral laws and then attribute it to God.

Otherwise, the world over, since the beginning of Islam, should have allowed men to have four wives... Since this was, supposedly, God's new law for all people until the coming of the next manifestation. And anyone not believing in Muhammad and the Quran was not following and obeying God's new directives?

 

[CG Didymus]

From the point of view of Christianity, it is relevant to everyone, including those not part of an Abrahamic religion.


Not everyone knows what is right and wrong according to the rules of society or country. In fact, entrapment occurs when a law enforcement agent or agent of the state induces a defendant to engage in a criminal act. But even if a person did what is right according to society and country, there is no guarantee the person would be rewarded by society or country. He could be denied those material rewards.
The spiritual is not the material. The reward of the spirit is of the spirit.


Indeed, the ultimate judgement of sincerity is God's and people do draw lines here and there to separate one from another. But speaking sensibly, who knows the Eden story and the Fall literally? If it is necessary to know this story word for word, surely there are so very few that qualify as to make the claim of "Christian" a lie in almost every case. A person who is true is honest and if he calls himself "Christian" it is because he truly believes that he is. Moreover, the story is not the event and neither the event nor the story is the spirit. To know the story is not to know the event, nor is to know the event to know the spirit. Yet the spirit is the essence of the story and of the event. The finger points at the moon, but the finger is not the moon.

I think the point was that a "true" Christian needs to believe that there had to be a fall where sin and death entered the world in order to make it necessary for Jesus to come and sacrifice himself to pay the penalty for the sins of the world.

 

[Truthseeker]

But my point was that I think there is evidence that maybe it's the people and culture play a big part in making up the moral laws and then attribute it to God.

That's close to the mark. God makes the laws according to the people and culture involved as a factor.

If the Bab's laws from God didn't go into effect, what good were they? And did they ever go into effect? But besides that, Baha'u'llah and the other Babi's new the laws but kept the Islamic laws instead?

I think it depended on the law. It seems somewhere within the Persian Bayan this was stipulated in some way. But it is all murky to me since the Persian Bayan is so long, and does not have an "authorized" translation, just a provisional translation in English based on a provisional translation in French. I depend on Shoghi Effendi who said that Baha'u'llah was following Islamic law, which logically means the two wives thing was not in effect.

Otherwise, the world over, since the beginning of Islam, should have allowed men to have four wives... Since this was, supposedly, God's new law for all people until the coming of the next manifestation. And anyone not believing in Muhammad and the Quran was not following and obeying God's new directives?

If someone had not heard of Islamic law or the Qur'an, which was in a lot of the world at the time, they would not be bound by that law.

 

[Aupmanyav]

From the point of view of Christianity, it is relevant to everyone, including those not part of an Abrahamic religion.


Not everyone knows what is right and wrong according to the rules of society or country. In fact, entrapment occurs when a law enforcement agent or agent of the state induces a defendant to engage in a criminal act. But even if a person did what is right according to society and country, there is no guarantee the person would be rewarded by society or country. He could be denied those material rewards.
The spiritual is not the material. The reward of the spirit is of the spirit.


Indeed, the ultimate judgement of sincerity is God's and people do draw lines here and there to separate one from another. But speaking sensibly, who knows the Eden story and the Fall literally? If it is necessary to know this story word for word, surely there are so very few that qualify as to make the claim of "Christian" a lie in almost every case. A person who is true is honest and if he calls himself "Christian" it is because he truly believes that he is. Moreover, the story is not the event and neither the event nor the story is the spirit. To know the story is not to know the event, nor is to know the event to know the spirit. Yet the spirit is the essence of the story and of the event. The finger points at the moon, but the finger is not the moon.

Do you mean that even if the person is good, God can deny rewards (heaven as the theists say)? If one chooses nopt to worship a particular God or accepts the prophet/son/messenger/manifestation/mahdi, then that particular God will deny the reward but the other Gods and Goddesses may provide the said reward.

A person is required to follow the rules of his society and country because he gets the benefits of participating in that society or country. Being a member itself is a reward and following the law is an obligation 'dharma' on him. The person is already reaping the rewards of that. Is your country not safe-guarding you, your family or your property? If one does not do that, the person could be punished.