How can you be a True Christian™ if you don't take the Eden story literally?

[Hockeycowboy]

Naturally, when I was taught about the Baha'i Faith by Baha'is, they only told me the good stuff.

You present a good point: to impress others, we all do that to some degree.

That’s one thing I appreciate about the Bible…
God wants you to love Him (Deuteronomy 6:5; Matthew 22:37), but He has never hid His actions; He even had His actions recorded, some that people may call heinous.

But yet, they’re recorded.

That’s called candor & honesty.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

How can you be a True Christian™ if you don't take the Eden story literally?

Did Jesus/Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah ever say that Eden story is to be believed literally, please?
If yes then kindly quote from him in this connection, please, right?
If not then one can be a true follower of him without believing in the story of Eden literally, please. Right?

Regards

Yes, he did… Matthew 19:4-6.

 

[Audie]

You present a good point: to impress others, we all do that to some degree.

That’s one thing I appreciate about the Bible…
God wants you to love Him (Deuteronomy 6:5; Matthew 22:37), but He has never hid His actions; He even had His actions recorded, some that people may call heinous.

But yet, they’re recorded.

That’s called candor & honesty.

Huh. I call it unconscionable slaughter and cruelty.

 

[CG Didymus]

You present a good point: to impress others, we all do that to some degree.

That’s one thing I appreciate about the Bible…
God wants you to love Him (Deuteronomy 6:5; Matthew 22:37), but He has never hid His actions; He even had His actions recorded, some that people may call heinous.

But yet, they’re recorded.

That’s called candor & honesty.

But, if the Baha'is are correct, where is the honesty? They say God didn't literally create the world in six days, Adam and Eve didn't literally fall. Satan is literally real. Jesus didn't literally resurrect. But God literally did send several manifestations, like Krishna, Buddha, Jesus, Moses, Muhammad and Baha'u'llah.

Because of the differences in beliefs, Baha'is believe their prophet has told them the honest to God truth. That most all the other religion, maybe not Islam, have corrupted their Scriptures by adding things in and misinterpreting their meaning. Each religion and each sect within a religion has their reasons that explain why their beliefs are the ones that are true. And most give us the reasons why the others aren't.

No matter which one someone falls for, I have no doubt, that in many ways, it helps them and makes them better, more spiritual people and gives them confidence that what they believe is true. They all work to a degree. But they all have several reasons why a person can doubt them and believe them to be false.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Huh. I call it unconscionable slaughter and cruelty.

Yes, I’d probably feel the same way, too.

But I wanted to learn why, so I searched, found out & accepted the reasons.

I think we’ve had this same discussion before.

 

[Audie]

Yes, I’d probably feel the same way, too.

But I wanted to learn why, so I searched, found out & accepted the reasons.

I think...

Never doubted what you'd think, that choosing to accept it that your chosen interpretation of the book you choose indicates that slaughtering innocent children is terrif.

It's called Stockholm syndrome
or battered wife syndrome.
Among other things.

I ran across a guy who said he is waiting for his
" god's" word that it's time to start slaughtering
all the atheists. Hed hang me from a lamp post.

I've an uncle who took part in a lot
of killings, for Mao.

He's searched his conscience, and, found
the reasons.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Never doubted you'd think slaughtering
innocent children is terrif.

I NEVER said that!

I’ve learned 2 things:
1) You have the unmitigated gall to twist my words,
&
2)You don’t want to learn why, or gain any understanding…..you'd rather wallow in ignorance.

 

[Audie]

I NEVER said that!

I’ve learned 2 things:
1) You have the unmitigated gall to twist my words,
&
2)You don’t want to learn why, or gain any understanding…..you'd rather wallow in ignorance.

Not at all.

You find no prob with your "god" slaughtering
countless children.
Now you are on my case for putting it in stark terms
in front of your face?

You don't seem to understand what it is you choose to
believe.

 

[CG Didymus]

Not at all.

You find no prob with your "god" slaughtering
countless children.
Now you are on my case for putting it in stark terms
in front of your face?

You don't seem to understand what it is you choose to
believe.

Example... 1 Samuel 15:3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”

 

[Audie]

Example... 1 Samuel 15:3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”

Very hard to figure how that's ok.
I doubt our hero will be back to try.

 

[paarsurrey]

paarsurrey said:
How can you be a True Christian™ if you don't take the Eden story literally?

Did Jesus/Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah ever say that Eden story is to be believed literally, please?
If yes then kindly quote from him in this connection, please, right?
If not then one can be a true follower of him without believing in the story of Eden literally, please. Right?

Yes, he did… Matthew 19:4-6.

Matthew 19
" 3Then some Pharisees came and tested Him by asking, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason?” 4 Jesus answered, “ Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ 5and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’?…
Berean Standard Bible · Download

Divorce is allowed in Jews, so what was the test, and did Jesus fail in the test, please??

Regards

 

[F1fan]

From the point of view of Christianity, it is relevant to everyone, including those not part of an Abrahamic religion.

That is a huge flaw among the Christians who believe this, because in reality no single religion has authority over those who aren't part of them. The point of view you state above shows the dishonesty and lack of humility many Christians feel.

How do you think a Christians resolves this view with Muslims or atheists or Hindus? Can Christians be mature enough to acknowledge that their beliefs are irrelevant to non-Christians?

 

[Ponder This]

I think the point was that a "true" Christian needs to believe that there had to be a fall where sin and death entered the world in order to make it necessary for Jesus to come and sacrifice himself to pay the penalty for the sins of the world.

This doesn't seem to be the point. An Appeal to Purity would be a logical fallacy.

Do you mean that even if the person is good, God can deny rewards (heaven as the theists say)? If one chooses nopt to worship a particular God or accepts the prophet/son/messenger/manifestation/mahdi, then that particular God will deny the reward but the other Gods and Goddesses may provide the said reward.

A person is required to follow the rules of his society and country because he gets the benefits of participating in that society or country. Being a member itself is a reward and following the law is an obligation 'dharma' on him. The person is already reaping the rewards of that. Is your country not safe-guarding you, your family or your property? If one does not do that, the person could be punished.

God is the judge of such things and, yes, he can bestow or deny rewards as he see fit to anyone. If you think that you are the judge of what is good, then you might not qualify.
There is a rather famous example of Moses not being allowed to enter the Promised Land. You might think that after carrying the message of God, freeing his people from slavery and guiding them through the desert for 40 years that he would surely qualify to enter the Promised Land. He did not. The judge of what rewards are for whom is not based on who is "good" in our eyes. This is basic: to give up the ego.

That is a huge flaw among the Christians who believe this, because in reality no single religion has authority over those who aren't part of them. The point of view you state above shows the dishonesty and lack of humility many Christians feel.

How do you think a Christians resolves this view with Muslims or atheists or Hindus? Can Christians be mature enough to acknowledge that their beliefs are irrelevant to non-Christians?

It could be dishonest not to acknowledge God when that's your religion. You talk about religions having authority over other religions, but this isn't about that. Christians don't decide what Hindus believe and Hindus don't decide what Christians believe. And if you are atheist, then that's your choice too. A Christian is not obligated to believe that an atheist is going to Heaven just because atheists aren't Christians.

 

[F1fan]

It could be dishonest not to acknowledge God when that's your religion.

Do you not have any agency and authority over what you believe? Are you a mindless robot that can't think for yourself?

You talk about religions having authority over other religions, but this isn't about that.

You claimed that Christian concepts applied to all people, including non-Christians, and I pointed out they don't. No religion has authority over anyone who believs differently. The 9-11 hijackers are examples of people who believed their religious beliefs were absolute and could be acted on against others. I'll bet you disagreed with their mission doing God's will.

Christians don't decide what Hindus believe and Hindus don't decide what Christians believe. And if you are atheist, then that's your choice too. A Christian is not obligated to believe that an atheist is going to Heaven just because atheists aren't Christians.

Yet I have heard your fellow Christians insist I am bound for hell because I don't believe what they do. Why would they think that? Who told them that? They don't respect that I have no reason to think their beliefs are true, thus don't apply to me. It sounds to me like they are bothered I don't assign their beliefs credibility.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yes, he did… Matthew 19:4-6.

Nope. He does nothing of the sort there. Jesus used poetic language a lot in the Gospels. But those verses in no way support your claim.

Try again.

 

[Trailblazer]

Nope. He does nothing of the sort there. Jesus used poetic language a lot in the Gospels. But those verses in no way support your claim.

Try again.

Matthew 19:4 And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who [a]made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6 So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”

is about marriage and divorce. It says nothing about the Eden story.

 

[ppp]

I NEVER said that!

I’ve learned 2 things:
1) You have the unmitigated gall to twist my words,
&
2)You don’t want to learn why, or gain any understanding…..you'd rather wallow in ignorance.

I am not sure how else she is supposed to take your words. Is anything that your god does not moral?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Matthew 19:4 And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who [a]made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6 So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”

is about marriage and divorce. It says nothing about the Eden story.

I know. It is amazing how desperate that some fundamentalists get. They simply do not understand poetic language.

 

[Aupmanyav]

God is the judge of such things and, yes, he can bestow or deny rewards as he see fit to anyone. If you think that you are the judge of what is good, then you might not qualify.
There is a rather famous example of Moses not being allowed to enter the Promised Land. You might think that after carrying the message of God, freeing his people from slavery and guiding them through the desert for 40 years that he would surely qualify to enter the Promised Land. He did not. The judge of what rewards are for whom is not based on who is "good" in our eyes. This is basic: to give up the ego.

OK. God is the judge. But being good is not enough. One has to accept that there is only one God and that Moses/Jesus/Mohammad and the other riff-raff (depending upon the belief of the person) have to be acknowledged. Is that not unfair?
No soul has entered the promised land till now. All souls have to wait till the day of judgement, even Moses' soul (according to Christians and Muslims).
Is it the problem of an individuals ego or the whimsical ways of God, that he will deny rewards even to good people? This God needs to be changed.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”
This is about marriage and divorce. It says nothing about the Eden story.

If that is so, then divorce for any reason is ruled out.