How can you be a True Christian™ if you don't take the Eden story literally?

[ppp]

It could. I doubt science will ever have the ability to determine that with complete accuracy. I wish.

And that idea - to me - is far fetched.

[shrug] You have done no work here. Your expressed thoughts (so far) are the semantic equivalent of nuh uh.

Careful about saying “impossible“!

Between the two of us, I am the only one who is being careful about saying either "possible" or "impossible". But I thank you for the ironic and amusing admonition.

We still have a lot to learn! Look at all the genetic diversity we find in the varied canis genus.

Ok. I am looking at all the genetic diversity we find in Canis. It is huge. You seem to think that is a relevant response to, [Everyone descending from Noah] would be impossible. [The genome of one human from the time frame of recorded human history] could not contain or produce all of the genetic diversity that we see today in the Y-chromosome.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yes you do! (Look, you can’t even admit it.)

You claim all (well, most of) those prophecies written by Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, etc., were written after the events happened.

That would be deceit of the highest order; they would have had some pretty dark motives. (Fortunately it’s not true.) But that’s what you believe. Just admit it.


Have a pleasant day.

Many of them were. Not all. There is little doubt of that. That does not make them lies. It only means that your interpretations were wrong. At that time it was a legitimate way to write history at times. You do that a injustice when you call it "lying". Lying is what the people at AiG and other apologist sites do. One cannot be Christian apologist unless one is willing to be Liar For Jesus.

I never said that old Zeke was a liar. I merely showed that he was a failure as a prophet since some of his prophecies clearly failed. I know that Isaiah is a much more recent book than you think that it is. Or at least parts of it were. One can tell when what parts of some books were written by the history that they got right or wrong along with other clues such as writing style. Isaiah appears to have had three periods of writing for it. The original works of Isaiah, a second was written during the exile, and the last part written after the exile was over. . You are just abusing the Bible by insisting that it all had to be the work of Isaiah. You should read this article:

Book of Isaiah - Wikipedia

At least read this short excerpt:

"While it is widely accepted that the book of Isaiah is rooted in a historic prophet called Isaiah, who lived in the Kingdom of Judah during the 8th century BCE, it is also widely accepted that this prophet did not write the entire book of Isaiah.[9][23]

• Historical situation: Chapters 40–55 presuppose that Jerusalem has already been destroyed (they are not framed as prophecy) and the Babylonian exile is already in effect – they speak from a present in which the Exile is about to end. Chapters 56–66 assume an even later situation, in which the people are already returned to Jerusalem and the rebuilding of the Temple is already under way.[24]
• Anonymity: Isaiah's name suddenly stops being used after chapter 39.[25]
• Style: There is a sudden change in style and theology after chapter 40; numerous key words and phrases found in one section are not found in the other.[26]

The composition history of Isaiah reflects a major difference in the way authorship was regarded in ancient Israel and in modern societies; the ancients did not regard it as inappropriate to supplement an existing work while remaining anonymous.[27] While the authors are anonymous, it is plausible that all of them were priests, and the book may thus reflect Priestly concerns, in opposition to the increasingly successful reform movement of the Deuteronomists.[28]"

I need to stress that it was not thought to be wrong at that time to supplement the work. They did not base their conclusions just based upon the history that Isaiah got right. They could tell that it was written by different authors by the writing style and the theology as well. You ruin the book as a religious work by trying to claim that it is a magical work.

Actual scholars do not have to lie to support their beliefs. Literalists do. Apologists seem to think that they have to lie.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

God is the judge of such things and, yes, he can bestow or deny rewards as he see fit to anyone

Now, Moses was a murderer so maybe that relates, but what about Job? God admitted that Job was blameless. If God’s going to do whatever He wants, why bother being moral since it is irrelevant?

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Huh? Isn't that like calling someone a chef in a world where food never existed?

A lifeguard doesn’t need a particular person to save. They are certified to save anyone who needs it.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Patience. If not, you, I, or no one would have any hope.

God took 400 years to rescue people from Egypt. Everyone who was already long dead was without hope.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

So, the scriptures are not referring to the temporal, but the eternal wages of sin.

But God often breaks His own rules and so does Junior. Do They get out of the eternal wages?

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

What if God decided to reveal information to you/humanity through written language?

When He writes a book, let me know. No, wait, God can let me know.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

What if God has valid reasons for allowing things to go wrong…for now? Or temporarily letting humans see the consequences of their wrong choices?

I find honoring Someone that ignorant or negligent distasteful.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

I’m not aware of anywhere that God admits Job was sinless.

Seriously, do y’all not read the stories? Job 1:8. It’s only 8 verses in and God flat out stated that Job is blameless.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Blameless and upright and one who shuns evil doesn’t mean sinless. In the context of the scriptures, we a person who fears God knows they aren’t perfect before a Holy God and are aware they need God/ a Savior/Messiah.

Job: *literally does nothing wrong and God confirms it throughout the entire story *
Christians: Job sinned.
Jesus: *literally breaks commandments *
Christians: Jesus is sinless.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

we a person who fears God knows they aren’t perfect before a Holy God and are aware they need God/ a Savior/Messiah.

Job was loyal to God and God smote him repeatedly. With friends like that…

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

No. Jesus was quoting Genesis 2:24. So who is that account about?

Quoting a story doesn’t make it true.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

I say you do not KNOW. You were not there

Neither were the authors

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

But God often breaks His own rules and so does Junior. Do They get out of the eternal wages?

There are scriptures that imply that Jesus was without sin (2 Corinthians 5:21; Hebrews 4:15; 1 Peter 2:21–22). However, there is a biblical account of him throwing an angry temper tantrum in a temple in order to remove the moneychangers and those who sold animals (Matthew 21:12–13; Mark 11:15–18; John 2:13–17). In the story, he was clearly in a fit of rage as he yelled and knocked over several tables. According to Galatians 5:19–21, fits of rage are described as "works of the flesh" and are listed among the other sins mentioned in these verses. If you read on to Galatians 5:22–13, these verses describe the fruit of the Spirit, which are love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. I can't speak for others who have read the story of Jesus' public display of uncontrolled anger, but I don't see how throwing an angry tantrum exhibits these characteristics to those around him. I do, however, think that "Do as I say, not as I do" accurately describes the narrative, as opposed to Christians attempting to justify Jesus' fit.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Because it’s only a temporary situation. (Well, for quite a while now, but the issues are about to be resolved.)
You did read my entire post, right?
Here’s the answer to your particular question …

But God isn’t ruling either, right?

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Why do you think the Israelites had to provide all those animal sacrifices?

Because the priests were hungry.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Hoorah! I finally got caught up in this thread!

 

[blü 2]

There are scriptures that imply that Jesus was without sin (2 Corinthians 5:21; Hebrews 4:15; 1 Peter 2:21–22). However, there is a biblical account of him throwing an angry temper tantrum in a temple in order to remove the moneychangers and those who sold animals (Matthew 21:12–13; Mark 11:15–18; John 2:13–17). In the story, he was clearly in a fit of rage as he yelled and knocked over several tables. According to Galatians 5:19–21, fits of rage are described as "works of the flesh" and are listed among the other sins mentioned in these verses. If you read on to Galatians 5:22–13, these verses describe the fruit of the Spirit, which are love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. I can't speak for others who have read the story of Jesus' public display of uncontrolled anger, but I don't see how throwing an angry tantrum exhibits these characteristics to those around him. I do, however, think that "Do as I say, not as I do" accurately describes the narrative, as opposed to Christians attempting to justify Jesus' fit.

Whether the report of Jesus and the Moneychangers is true or not, where it goes completely silly for me is that (a) the moneychangers were going about their business lawfully and (b) if Jesus had any argument about what they were doing, it was not with the moneychangers but the temple authorities ─ they were the only people capable of changing the practice.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

In the story, he was clearly in a fit of rage as he yelled….

Jesus “yelled”? Where does it say that in these accounts?

In John, I just read, “To those who sold doves he said, ‘Get these out of here! Stop turning my Father’s house into a market!’ ”

In Matthews account, it says, “ “It is written,” he said to them, “‘My house will be called a house of prayer,’but you are making it ‘a den of robbers.’ “

Can you point out where it says Jesus is yelling?

I’ve known you up til now to be an honest individual, so from what I’ve learned about you, it surprises me that you would misrepresent the text here. Why?

Jesus' public display of uncontrolled anger

“Uncontrolled”?
I see perfect control, considering the power Jesus is described as having. He always used it to help other humans, never to hurt.

And being perfect doesn’t mean you can’t get angry. Jehovah God has gotten angry at times.

Is God imperfect, then? Hardly.

(Having “fits of anger” implies losing control. Never is that good behavior. And never has God - or Jesus - “lost control”.)

In reflection, the Bible…in revealing Jehovah God’s loving actions and also His acts of vengeance….should help one to appreciate its candor.

Jehovah doesn’t hide His behavior.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Jesus “yelled”? Where does it say that in these accounts?

In John, I just read, “To those who sold doves he said, ‘Get these out of here! Stop turning my Father’s house into a market!’ ”

In Matthews account, it says, “ “It is written,” he said to them, “‘My house will be called a house of prayer,’but you are making it ‘a den of robbers.’ “

Can you point out where it says Jesus is yelling?

I’ve known you up til now to be an honest individual, so from what I’ve learned about you, it surprises me that you would misrepresent the text here. Why?

“Uncontrolled”?
I see perfect control, considering the power Jesus is described as having. He always used it to help other humans, never to hurt.

And being perfect doesn’t mean you can’t get angry. Jehovah God has gotten angry at times.

Is God imperfect, then? Hardly.

(Having “fits of anger” implies losing control. Never is that good behavior. And never has God - or Jesus - “lost control”.)

In reflection, the Bible…in revealing Jehovah God’s loving actions and also His acts of vengeance….should help one to appreciate its candor.

Jehovah doesn’t hide His behavior.

According to the myths that you believe in he got angry countless times.