How can you be a True Christian™ if you don't take the Eden story literally?

[Whateverist]

I think that is a good analogy, Subduction Zone.

According to Mark 11:12–14, just before Jesus' public outburst of rage at the temple, he cursed a fig tree for bearing no fruit for him to eat. He noticed the tree from a distance and went to see whether it had any fruit to eat because he was hungry. When he arrived, all he found were leaves because it was not fig season. So instead of walking away and finding food elsewhere, he cursed the tree, and it withered. It couldn't grow fruit because it was out of season, but he still cursed it because there was nothing for him to eat. Why would he curse a barren tree if he wasn't upset that it bore no fruit for him to eat?

Maybe it was intended sarcastically to show the futile silliness of tantrums when things don’t go your way?

I’m only guessing as I’ve never read the Holy Manual.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Isn't that basically what I said in my post (that you chopped up)?

Wait, so you don't "believe" in evolution, but you think it's possible that Noah's genome could contain or produce all of the genetic diversity that we see today in the Y-chromosome" ,,,, ? How does that make sense? In other words, you don't accept evolution but you believe the human race, like, super evolved over the last few thousand years??

So you think evolution has limits (I'm guessing macroevolution?), while at the same time believing that Noah and a few family members (and all the animals on the ark) somehow populated the entire earth is just a few thousand years, correct? And that gave us all the diversity we see now, correct?

One has to have conflicting beliefs when one starts to look at the evidence. The ark could not have clearly held on extent species and their provisions for a year, nor could Noah and family have come even close to taking care of them. so they have to invent new explanations that are no better. Ark believers tend to deny evolution but then claim that it happened far faster than it ever occurred in nature to explain the diversity that we see today. They have to claim that new species can arrive in just few years instead of hundreds of thousands to millions of years. Most just give up arguing after a while.

 

[InChrist]

Incorrect. All that we have are humans, like yourself, who claim that there is a god who says things.

Read the Bible and sincerely ask God to let you know if it is really His Word.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Maybe it was intended sarcastically to show the futile silliness of tantrums when things don’t go your way?

I’m only guessing as I’ve never read the Holy Manual.

It does not appear that way. He seemed to have been genuinely angry and that is defended by Christian apologists. There are times that the characters of the Bible, like all mythological characters, acted far too human at times.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Read the Bible and sincerely ask God to let you know if it is really His Word.

Why? That does not help with the myths of Genesis. It could still be "his word" and those stories could be just morality tales. They would still get useful lessons taught even if they are false. Most Christians seem to have that sort of belief. Unlike you most Christians do not claim that God is a liar.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Actually, God was a wonderful friend to Job, blessing him incredibly and eternally…

“So what did Job “get right” (42:7)? The upshot of the trial is that Job finally sees that God’s governance of the universe is much more wonderful than he could have imagined, and he openly concedes this (42:2-5); so this is what Job spoke about God that was “right” (42:7). Now, it is absolutely crucial to note the sequence of events at this point: it is only when Job obeys God and intercedes on behalf of his three friends—who had now become his enemies—that God actually blesses Job with a twofold inheritance (42:8-17). This “reward” was not at all some kind of “consolation prize” for Job’s unfair treatment; rather, it was the inheritance God promises to all who serve faithfully as redemptive agents of the Creator (cf. Daniel 12:3). Job obeyed God and was rewarded for his obedience.

In the end, God’s wager with Satan actually achieved an incredible coup: He harnessed evil and turned it to good (cf. Genesis 50:20), and He transformed Job into the most effective servant of all, one who took on God’s own redemptive character and loved his enemies. And this, in fact, is our take-home lesson from Job.”

Was it unfair for God to allow Job to suffer over what was basically an argument between God and Satan? | GotQuestions.org

Was it unfair for God to allow Job to suffer over what was basically an argument between God and Satan? Was Job’s suffering due to what was essentially a bet between God and Satan?

www.gotquestions.org

Yes, he killed his children. On a bet. Then he forced his rather old wife to have seven more children at a very dangerous age for her. It would have been a very painful process to say the least, but I guess that she does not count since she is a mere female. And children are just property too so replacing his children got God off the hook for allowing Satan to kill the others.

Please note, Satan did not appear to have any interest in harming Job. God willingly offered him and his family up as a test rabbit in their bet.

 

[Whateverist]

He seemed to have been genuinely angry and that is defended by Christian apologists.

I accept your point but question the evidence if it is based on what Christian apologists think. In my experience they are not only dim but rarely honest brokers with the truth. It’s too easy to rationalize lying if you do it for a God you believe in.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I accept your point but question the evidence if it is based on what Christian apologists think. In my experience they are not only dim but rarely honest brokers with the truth. It’s too easy to rationalize lying if you do it for a God you believe in.

Christian apologists tend to defend the myths of the Bible. One has to openly lie for Jesus to be an apologist. They are often those that try to defend the Noah and Adam and Eve myths.

There are many Christians that know enough science to realize that either those events did not happen or God is a liar. And since they can see how bad it is for their faiths if God is a liar they go with the morality tale route. Creationists have to actively keep themselves from understanding the science to protect their self contradictory beliefs.

 

[ppp]

Incorrect. All that we have are humans, like yourself, who claim that there is a god who says things.

Read the Bible and sincerely ask God to let you know if it is really His Word.

You are literally a human telling that there is a god who says things telling me to go listen to other humans, like yourself, claim that there is a god who says things. They are no more (or less) credible than you are.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Why? That does not help with the myths of Genesis. It could still be "his word" and those stories could be just morality tales. They would still get useful lessons taught even if they are false. Most Christians seem to have that sort of belief. Unlike you most Christians do not claim that God is a liar.

In my opinion, I wouldn't waste your time praying to the Abrahamic God, who is either not there or doesn't care about you or me. I say this because I spent forty years of my life praying to God and seeking answers and guidance from him, as well as repeatedly asking him for his protection from being abused and bullied while I was growing up. And what did I receive as a result of my sincere and diligent prayers to God during these forty years? Nothing. There was no guidance, no answers, no peace, no protection from abuse and bullying, and no guidance, answers, or healing for the trauma I experienced as an adult because of the abuse I endured while growing up. I did, however, find peace and experience emotional healing after I renounced my belief in God. In fact, renouncing my belief in God was one of the best decisions that I've ever made for my mental health and emotional well-being. It is only second to me protecting myself from abuse by facing my abusers shortly after turning eighteen. I believed in God for forty years and ended up empty-handed.

 

[InChrist]

Why? That does not help with the myths of Genesis. It could still be "his word" and those stories could be just morality tales. They would still get useful lessons taught even if they are false. Most Christians seem to have that sort of belief. Unlike you most Christians do not claim that God is a liar.

… in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, Titus 1:2

Genesis is history.

 

[Subduction Zone]

… in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, Titus 1:2

Genesis is history.

Sorry, but you cannot have it both ways. If God cannot lie then Genesis cannot be history. You are claiming that God is a liar when you state that Genesis is history. This is where understanding the sciences can help one get a at least more correct religious belief. The evidence against Genesis being history is endless. There is no reliable evidence that it is history.

That is why I often ask believers if their God can lie or not. If he can't lie than Genesis consists of morality tales. Morality tales that never occurred are not lies. They are teaching tools. But if God did flood the Earth then the endless evidence against it could have only come from an omnipotent God. Planting false evidence is a form of lying.

 

[InChrist]

Yes, he killed his children. On a bet. Then he forced his rather old wife to have seven more children at a very dangerous age for her. It would have been a very painful process to say the least, but I guess that she does not count since she is a mere female. And children are just property too so replacing his children got God off the hook for allowing Satan to kill the others.

Please note, Satan did not appear to have any interest in harming Job. God willingly offered him and his family up as a test rabbit in their bet.

It appears back in those days women of many cultures often had many children, even when older and they didn’t consider it a bad thing. So bringing that up is irrelevant. And don’t talk to me like I’m a man who thinks women or children aren’t important, value, and equal to men.

The bottom line is that Job was the one directly involved in the situation and he considered God to be righteous, just, and His actions to be valid for a good purpose.
Your are free to your opinions, but they carry no weight in the eternal picture that was happening between God, satan, Job and his family.

 

[Subduction Zone]

It appears back in those days women of many cultures often had many children, even when older and they didn’t consider it a bad thing. So bringing that up is irrelevant. And don’t talk to me like I’m a man who thinks women or children aren’t important, value, and equal to men.

That appear to be your belief, not mine. Didn't you claim that "Actually, God was a wonderful friend to Job, blessing him incredibly and eternally…"? God not only allowed Satan, but encouraged him to attack Job and his family. He allowed Satan to kill Job's children. That indicates that he did not put much value on them since they were mere pawns in a bet. Haven't you read the account?

The bottom line is that Job was the one directly involved in the situation and he considered God to be righteous, just, and His actions to be valid for a good purpose.
Your are free to your opinions, but they carry no weight in the eternal picture that was happening between God, satan, Job and his family.

BS! At least I can be honest about it. You cannot deal with the fact that the whole story just shows that God is vain and evil again. When you take the Bible too literally you have to paint God as immoral, incompetent, evil and vain.

 

[InChrist]

Sorry, but you cannot have it both ways. If God cannot lie then Genesis cannot be history. You are claiming that God is a liar when you state that Genesis is history. This is where understanding the sciences can help one get a at least more correct religious belief. The evidence against Genesis being history is endless. There is no reliable evidence that it is history.

That is why I often ask believers if their God can lie or not. If he can't lie than Genesis consists of morality tales. Morality tales that never occurred are not lies. They are teaching tools. But if God did flood the Earth then the endless evidence against it could have only come from an omnipotent God. Planting false evidence is a form of lying.

I don’t have it both ways. I believe God’s word, period. Science is limited in how accurately it can interpret evidence from ancient history. Scientists are human, therefore prone to their own personal worldviews and biases. Any scientist who already rejects the possibility of a Creator to start with will only see evidence that fits their perspective and won’t see, much less acknowledge any evidence that may point to supporting biblical accounts.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I don’t have it both ways. I believe God’s word, period. Science is limited in how accurately it can interpret evidence from ancient history. Scientists are human, therefore prone to their own personal worldviews and biases. Any scientist who already rejects the possibility of a Creator to start with will only see evidence that fits their perspective and won’t see, much less acknowledge any evidence that may point to supporting biblical accounts.

First off it is an error to even call the Bible "God's word" it never makes that claim for itself. And like it or not you are calling God a liar because the evidence is clear. I know that you do not understand it. You almost definitely do not even understand the concept of evidence. Your excuse of "I believe God's word" does not get you off the hook of calling God a liar.

 

[InChrist]

That appear to be your belief, not mine. Didn't you claim that "Actually, God was a wonderful friend to Job, blessing him incredibly and eternally…"? God not only allowed Satan, but encouraged him to attack Job and his family. He allowed Satan to kill Job's children. That indicates that he did not put much value on them since they were mere pawns in a bet. Haven't you read the account?


BS! At least I can be honest about it. You cannot deal with the fact that the whole story just shows that God is vain and evil again. When you take the Bible too literally you have to paint God as immoral, incompetent, evil and vain.

No, not BS. I just realize that this life and world is not IT. Everything that happens or God allows to happen in this fallen world is for a greater, more important purpose ; ETERNITY. Eternal life is what matters, this life is temporary and passes like a vapor. As Paul says…

…For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. Romans 8:18

God is always good. He knows what He’s doing and He is continuously at work to bring about the best, most wonderful outcome imaginable for each person’s (eternal) life.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Sorry, but you cannot have it both ways. If God cannot lie then Genesis cannot be history. You are claiming that God is a liar when you state that Genesis is history. This is where understanding the sciences can help one get a at least more correct religious belief. The evidence against Genesis being history is endless. There is no reliable evidence that it is history.

That is why I often ask believers if their God can lie or not. If he can't lie than Genesis consists of morality tales. Morality tales that never occurred are not lies. They are teaching tools. But if God did flood the Earth then the endless evidence against it could have only come from an omnipotent God. Planting false evidence is a form of lying.

The Bible also states that God doesn't change his mind, such as Numbers 23:19, which states, "God is not a man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said it, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?" And Malachi 3:6 also says, "I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed." But there are other verses that imply that God changes his mind (Jeremiah 18:5–10; Joel 2:13; Jonah 4:2), describe him changing his mind (Exodus 32:14; Amos 7:3, 6; Jonah 3:10), or assume that he will change his mind (Jeremiah 26:3; Joel 2:14; Jonah 3:9).

Amos 7:3 "The Lord changed His mind about this. "It shall not be," said the LORD.

Amos 7:6 "The Lord changed His mind about this. "This too shall not be," said the Lord God.

Exodus 32:14 "So the Lord changed His mind about the harm that He said He would do to His people."

Furthermore, according to Genesis 6:6-7, God regretted creating not only mankind but also every animal, every creature that creeps on the ground, and the birds of the air. I would think that an all-knowing (Psalm 139:1-6; Isaiah 46:9–10; 1 John 3:20), all-powerful (Psalm 147:5; Job 42:2; Daniel 2:21), and ever-present (Psalm 139:7–10; Isaiah 40:12; Colossians 1:17) God would know better than to make the same mistake twice, much less make such a grave mistake once. It appears that the Abrahamic God was incapable of learning from his own mistakes, even after expressing regret for creating humanity, the animals, every creature that creeps on the ground, and the birds in the air. According to the Bible, he threw a cosmic temper tantrum because of the wickedness of humanity and wiped out mankind (except for Noah and his family) in a global flood, but he foolishly repopulated the world with the same kind of morally flawed humans he had just destroyed in the flood. Despite the scriptures that imply he is all-knowing, all-powerful, and ever-present, he committed the same mistake twice, which, in my opinion, was either extremely irresponsible in terms of morality or he is a psychotic and sadistic monster who delights in cruelly punishing flawed humanity for acting precisely as he initially foresaw that mankind would behave. Finally, the Bible also contains other verses that mention his regrets in addition to creating humanity (1 Samuel 15:11; 2 Samuel 24:16; Jeremiah 42:10). It mentions him changing his mind about bringing disasters down on his own people as punishment for their sins against him (Jeremiah 26:13; 1 Chronicles 21:15; Joel 2:13). For the record, Jeremiah 26:13, 1 Chronicles 21:15, and Joel 2:13 coincide with Isaiah 45:7 (NIV), which says, "I form the light and create darkness; I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things." The New King James uses the word "calamity" instead of disaster, and the KJV uses the word "evil" instead of disaster or calamity.

 

[InChrist]

First off it is an error to even call the Bible "God's word" it never makes that claim for itself. And like it or not you are calling God a liar because the evidence is clear. I know that you do not understand it. You almost definitely do not even understand the concept of evidence. Your excuse of "I believe God's word" does not get you off the hook of calling God a liar.

Oh yes the biblical scriptures do claim repeatedly to be the word(s) of God. Numerous times the phrases, “word of the Lord” or “ word of God” are used in reference to information, commands, laws given by God to humans.

Then the woman said to Elijah, “Now by this I know that you are a man of God, and that the word of the Lord in your mouth is the truth.” 1 Kings 17:24


And now, O Lord God of Israel, let Your word come true, which You have spoken to Your servant David. 2 Chronicles 6:17


As for God, His way is perfect; The word ofthe Lord is proven; He is a shield to all who trust in Him. Psalm 18:30

Because they rebelled against the words ofGod, And despised the counsel of the Most High Psalm 107:11

The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever. Isaiah 40:8


Thus speaks the Lord God of Israel, saying: ‘Write in a book for yourself all the words that I have spoken to you. Jeremiah 30:2

Behold, the days are coming,” says the Lord God, “That I will send a famine on the land, Not a famine of bread, Nor a thirst for water, But of hearing the words of the Lord.
Amos 8:11


Jesus answered him, saying, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.’ ” Luke 4:4


So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17


For we are not, as so many, peddling the word of God; but as of sincerity, but as from God, we speak in the sight of God in Christ. 2 Corinthians 2:17

But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. 2 Corinthians 4:2

For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Hebrews 4:12

 

[InChrist]

The Bible also states that God doesn't change his mind, such as Numbers 23:19, which states, "God is not a man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said it, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?" And Malachi 3:6 also says, "I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed." But there are other verses that imply that God changes his mind (Jeremiah 18:5–10; Joel 2:13; Jonah 4:2), describe him changing his mind (Exodus 32:14; Amos 7:3, 6; Jonah 3:10), or assume that he will change his mind (Jeremiah 26:3; Joel 2:14; Jonah 3:9).

Amos 7:3 "The Lord changed His mind about this. "It shall not be," said the LORD.

Amos 7:6 "The Lord changed His mind about this. "This too shall not be," said the Lord God.

Exodus 32:14 "So the Lord changed His mind about the harm that He said He would do to His people."

Furthermore, according to Genesis 6:6-7, God regretted creating not only mankind but also every animal, every creature that creeps on the ground, and the birds of the air. I would think that an all-knowing (Psalm 139:1-6; Isaiah 46:9–10; 1 John 3:20), all-powerful (Psalm 147:5; Job 42:2; Daniel 2:21), and ever-present (Psalm 139:7–10; Isaiah 40:12; Colossians 1:17) God would know better than to make the same mistake twice, much less make such a grave mistake once. It appears that the Abrahamic God was incapable of learning from his own mistakes, even after expressing regret for creating humanity, the animals, every creature that creeps on the ground, and the birds in the air. According to the Bible, he threw a cosmic temper tantrum because of the wickedness of humanity and wiped out mankind (except for Noah and his family) in a global flood, but he foolishly repopulated the world with the same kind of morally flawed humans he had just destroyed in the flood. Despite the scriptures that imply he is all-knowing, all-powerful, and ever-present, he committed the same mistake twice, which, in my opinion, was either extremely irresponsible in terms of morality or he is a psychotic and sadistic monster who delights in cruelly punishing flawed humanity for acting precisely as he initially foresaw that mankind would behave. Finally, the Bible also contains other verses that mention his regrets in addition to creating humanity (1 Samuel 15:11; 2 Samuel 24:16; Jeremiah 42:10). It mentions him changing his mind about bringing disasters down on his own people as punishment for their sins against him (Jeremiah 26:13; 1 Chronicles 21:15; Joel 2:13). For the record, Jeremiah 26:13, 1 Chronicles 21:15, and Joel 2:13 coincide with Isaiah 45:7 (NIV), which says, "I form the light and create darkness; I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things." The New King James uses the word "calamity" instead of disaster, and the KJV uses the word "evil" instead of disaster or calamity.

An omniscient God does not change His mind as humans do for trivial reasons, trying something different, making a mistake, or other such reasons. God may change His response depending upon human choices and actions, but those always remain consistent with His unchanging Character of holiness, righteousness, goodness, love, mercy, and justice.


“The fact that God changes His treatment of us in response to our choices has nothing to do with His character. In fact, because God does not change, He must treat the righteous differently from the unrighteous. If someone repents, God consistently forgives; if someone refuses to repent, God consistently judges. He is unchanging in His nature, His plan, and His being. He cannot one day be pleased with the contrite and the next day be angry with the contrite. That would show Him to be mutable and untrustworthy. For God to tell Nineveh, “I’m going to judge you,” and then (after they repent) refuse to judge them may look like God changed His mind. In reality, God was simply staying true to His character. He loves mercy and forgives the penitent. “Has God forgotten to be merciful?” (Psalm 77:9). The answer is, no.”

Does God change His mind? | GotQuestions.org

Does God change His mind? What does the Bible mean when it says God changed His mind?

www.gotquestions.org