How can you be a True Christian™ if you don't take the Eden story literally?

[F1fan]

I will answer all of this with one statement:

Other universe that we "played" with , mathematicly speaking are not competable with life,Stars burn out to quickly,Galaxies simply fall apart , protons disintegrate, it's very hard to create a universe that is stable.

Yup, some 700 million years ago almost all life died off as the planet was frozen over. But life still had a foothold in the oceans and it came back massively, until about 65 million years ago, and life started over again. And then humans evolved from primates, and then hominds over time, around some 200K years ago. Yet it wasn't until about 3000 yaers ago that God showed up with stories about how special humans are, and theists think they're true?

In fact there are very few universes that have stable protons.And we go to the lowest state of matter , electrons and neutrons.So it will be a gas of electrons and neutrons.So basicly this universes will fall apart in clouds of electrons and neutrons.

And that's the best your God can do.

How is that our universe is so special?

Only believers think it is, and all for them.

Cause it's compactable with stable protons and DNA?
And the fact that our proton is so stable is quite remarkable
And you want me to belive that is accidental?

The curiosity is why you think anything indicates a God at work.

As far as we know , we are the only one with komplex form of life.

Given the poor reasoning skill of so many humans we are not complex enough.

 

[Ebionite]

Nothing wrong

Like Abram was doing nothing wrong?

And he said, Lord YHWH, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it?
And he said unto him, Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon.
And he took unto him all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid each piece one against another: but the birds divided he not.
And when the fowls came down upon the carcases, Abram drove them away.
And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him.
Genesis 15:8-12

And it was so, when the days of [their] feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings [according] to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed Elohim in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.
Now there was a day when the sons of the Elohim came to present themselves before YHWH, and Satan came also among them.
Job 1:5-6

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Y’all can be in denial but God expressed overtly that Job was innocent. You NEED God to find something wrong with Job, just like Job’s “friends”. God chastised his “friends” for not knowing what they were talking about.

 

[Ebionite]

Y’all can be in denial but God expressed overtly that Job was innocent.

The Hebrew word for innocent is NQY. That's not one of the words that was used to describe Job.

There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name [was] Job; and that man was perfect[TM] and upright[YShR], and one that feared Elohim, and eschewed evil.
Job 1:1

And YHWH said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth Elohim, and escheweth evil?
Job 1:8

 

[Ebionite]

You NEED God to find something wrong with Job

Wrong.

But if ye had known what [this] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
Matthew 12:7

 

[Tomef]

I mean what purpose does Jesus serve in Christianity without a Christian-style Fall. Unlike in Judaism where everyone is born with a perfect soul, Christianity posits the Fall as a change of human nature, from some idyllic state, into a heritable state of sinful depravity. The purpose of Jesus in classical Christianity is to save humanity from created consequences of that otherwise inescapable corruption.

I don't know if you are consider yourself to be Christian, or not. The OP question was posed to people who both consider themselves Christians, but do not believe in a literal Fall. With a a literal fall (or as you raised, a series of events symbolized by the story), what purpose does Jesus serve?

Paul seemed to think so, if I remember rightly his is the part about sin entering the world through Adam and salvation through Christ. I don’t think that idea gets a mention in the gospels, though. To make sense of Paul’s argument I suppose the first thing would be to have a proper understanding of what this pre-fall state actually was. From the text it seems to be some state of not having any awareness of right or wrong, as defined later, assuming thereby that sin in some abstract sense already existed but was contingent on people knowing what it is, which would seem similar to the earliest thinking hominids passing from some state of limited sentience to a broader awareness of self and others. The idea then would be that that kind of awareness makes destructive behaviours inevitable, so after a few millennia (or 10s of millennia) of that it makes sense to want a miracle worker who can somehow save everyone from the impossible responsibility of avoiding any kind of bad choice or decision, behaviour etc.

 

[John53]

I think these videos can help with people come back to true Christian religion conservatism.
Video 1
Video 2

I'm out, I prefer dogs to religion.

 

[AnthonyGiarrusso]

I'm out, I prefer dogs to religion.

Did you see video 2?

 

[John53]

Did you see video 2?

Didn't make it beyond the dog stuff in the 1st video.

 

[Ebionite]

To make sense of Paul’s argument I suppose the first thing would be to have a proper understanding of what this pre-fall state actually was.

Paul's argument involves the proposition that all men are liars, based on David's sin involving Bathsheba. However, David's sin did not involve dishonesty.

God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
Romans 3:4

Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done [this] evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, [and] be clear when thou judgest.
Psalms 51:4

 

[Tomef]

Paul's argument involves the proposition that all men are liars, based on David's sin involving Bathsheba. However, David's sin did not involve dishonesty.

God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
Romans 3:4

Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done [this] evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, [and] be clear when thou judgest.
Psalms 51:4

Not that argument, this argument: Paul seemed to think so, if I remember rightly his is the part about sin entering the world through Adam and salvation through Christ

Also from Romans

 

[Ebionite]

Not that argument, this argument: Paul seemed to think so, if I remember rightly his is the part about sin entering the world through Adam and salvation through Christ

Also from Romans

That's Romans 5. It draws from Romans 3.

 

[AnthonyGiarrusso]

I think these videos can help with people come back to true Christian religion conservatism.
Video 1
Video 2

I don't see it as a religion issue, but a church community issue. I'd guess maybe about 1/4 of the members of the church I belong too haven't read the bible at all. If the church community was all on “All On The Same Page" meaning that we all understood the same thing, then we wouldn't have any discrepancies.

Discrepancies are an issue because this leads our church into believing things that it doesn't say in the bible.

If people just followed the directions of their faiths, (Regardless of religion type) people would do their religion correctly without discrepancy.

 

[John53]

I don't see it as a religion issue, but a church community issue. I'd guess maybe about 1/4 of the members of the church I belong too haven't read the bible at all. If the church community was all on “All On The Same Page" meaning that we all understood the same thing, then we wouldn't have any discrepancies.

Discrepancies are an issue because this leads our church into believing things that it doesn't say in the bible.

If people just followed the directions of their faiths, (Regardless of religion type) people would do their religion correctly without discrepancy.

So we should stone to death our stubborn and rebellious sons? Along with homosexuals and those who work on the Sabbath?

 

[AnthonyGiarrusso]

So we should stone to death our stubborn and rebellious sons? Along with homosexuals and those who work on the Sabbath?

There is a longer list. LOL

 

[John53]

There is a longer list. LOL

Good to know.

All the animal sacrifice would probably annoy the neighbours so I'll just keep my dog and give it a miss I think.

 

[Tomef]

There is a longer list. LOL

Sure, kill everyone you don’t agree with. Then start squabbling over who the really real Christians are, and kill all the designated heretics. Then start on anyone with scientific ideas you don’t like. I wonder how that would go? Oh, wait, history of the church…

 

[Subduction Zone]

I don't see it as a religion issue, but a church community issue. I'd guess maybe about 1/4 of the members of the church I belong too haven't read the bible at all. If the church community was all on “All On The Same Page" meaning that we all understood the same thing, then we wouldn't have any discrepancies.

Discrepancies are an issue because this leads our church into believing things that it doesn't say in the bible.

If people just followed the directions of their faiths, (Regardless of religion type) people would do their religion correctly without discrepancy.

And Christians that have often abuse it by interpreting Genesis overly literally.

 

[Dimi95]

Yup, some 700 million years ago almost all life died off as the planet was frozen over. But life still had a foothold in the oceans and it came back massively, until about 65 million years ago, and life started over again. And then humans evolved from primates, and then hominds over time, around some 200K years ago. Yet it wasn't until about 3000 yaers ago that God showed up with stories about how special humans are, and theists think they're true?

And that's the best your God can do.

Only believers think it is, and all for them.

The curiosity is why you think anything indicates a God at work.

Given the poor reasoning skill of so many humans we are not complex enough.

It's your own choice to belive that you exist without any reason.

Why did Evolution stopped then , we don't have thousand years to find the truth

"Darwin wrote that he could visualize "in some warm little pond," with all sorts of salts and electricity, the spontaneous generation of the first living cell.
Darwin preserved a piece of vermicelli pasta in a glass case, till by some extraordinary means it began to move with voluntary motion."

All theory need testing wright?
So buy the pasta and leave a piece in a test tube with saltet water.
Leave it for years , but you won't see it moving voluntary and you won't see life in it.
But try , why not ..

Only Darwin saw it and belived it , oh wait... but.. theists.. belive .. oh no.

And

How much funds and resources will be used untill we get the information about the first life.
Because we are in 2023 and we still don't have cure for serous medical conditions.
Where is the progress there?
Milions of people died , and are still dying,and will die.

Insisting on finding life , but still failing to save it.

 

[Subduction Zone]

It's your own choice to belive that you exist without any reason.

Are you sure that you are not describing yourself? Just because his reasons are not the same as yours does not mean that he has none.

Why did Evolution stopped then , we don't have thousand years to find the truth

Evolution has not stopped. Why would you think that it has?

"Darwin wrote that he could visualize "in some warm little pond," with all sorts of salts and electricity, the spontaneous generation of the first living cell.
Darwin preserved a piece of vermicelli pasta in a glass case, till by some extraordinary means it began to move with voluntary motion."

Darwin did not know everything. Evolution is not about Darwin.

All theory need testing wright?
So buy the pasta and leave a piece in a test tube with saltet water.
Leave it for years , but you won't see it moving voluntary and you won't see life in it.
But try , why not ..

Because that isn't testing evolution.

Only Darwin saw it and belived it , oh wait... but.. theists.. belive .. oh no.

Did he? I doubt it. Learn how to properly support your claims.

And

How much funds and resources will be used untill we get the information about the first life.
Because we are in 2023 and we still don't have cure for serous medical conditions.
Where is the progress there?
Milions of people died , and are still dying,and will die.

Insisting on finding life , but still failing to save it.

That is a very odd question. You have no understanding of the sciences so why oppose them? Do you want to learn how we know that evolution is a fact?