How can you be a True Christian™ if you don't take the Eden story literally?

[shunyadragon]

I wish the Democrats would choose a better candidate too, but if it comes down to President Biden and Donald Trump again, my choice is clear. I'll vote for Joe Biden again. I'm a former conservative Christian, and I consistently voted Republican for 24 years until the 2016 presidential election. I voted third party for the first time ever in that election, and I voted Democratic for the first time ever in the 2020 presidential election. I won't politically support the Republican Party with my votes or money again as long as Trump and his loyal cohorts are controlling it. I'll continue to politically support the Democrats.

Politics is not the issue in this thread except or the fact that extreme fundamentalist Christs and belief in dominion and the manifest destiny of their beliefs is slowly and surely taking over our society. Their view and goals are Biblical based on an ancient tribal view of the world.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Politics is not the issue in this thread except or the fact that extreme fundamentalist Christs and belief in dominion and the manifest destiny of their beliefs is slowly and surely taking over our society. Their view and goals are Biblical based on an ancient tribal view of the world.

I responded to someone else who mentioned the political topic. If you have a problem with it, then kindly take it up with those who posted about it first.

 

[CG Didymus]

So what motivates so many to adopt religious ideas that are not based in truth or fact?

Christians, Baha'is, and probably most of the other religions have people that studied and investigated and, amazingly, found that their Scriptures are true and factual. And the followers believe them.

To trust a source means examining the source for its reliability and validity. There are many bogus sources out there that the foolish and guilible fall prey to, and they are dismissed by critical minds.

And one group of Christians will tell people that their interpretations are true, but the interpretations of another group of Christians is false. Yet, they both have plenty of followers believing in them. With each saying it's the other group that is wrong and has false beliefs. And then add in other religions like Islam and the Baha'i Faith, and they tell people why how Islam or the Baha'i Faith is right and how those people in all the other religions have misinterpreted the Scriptures of their own religion.

How do Christians fit in? Just an offshoot that stole some Jewish ideas and created something new, but still aren't the chosen people?

And that's how I see it all the way down through since then. Islam took a little from the Bible and the NT and added in some of their beliefs and came up with their religion. Then comes the Baha'is that built off of mostly Shia Islam and quoted a few Bible verses and verses from the NT that could be used to make it sound like the Baha'i Faith was true.

But was any of it true? Starting with the foundational Scripture, the Jewish Bible, that all of them build off of? Christians use verses that make Jesus the Messiah and Savior. Islam finds its verses from both the Bible and the NT. Then the Baha'is use verses from all of them to prove that they are the new and true religion of God.

But when it comes to the Bible, what bothers me, is that they don't believe it. That is as being historically and literally true. They make whatever they want into being allegory and only "symbolically". Which, to me, means... they don't really belief it. But have found a way to pretend they believe it and, for them, a way to say they believe it.

So, why do they need to believe that God is real? That God inspired people to write Scriptures or sent a prophet to write them? After all of these things they must believe by faith and can't be proven to be true, they have their rules and laws and moral codes... They have prayers and rituals and other things to do... Like meet together and tell each other how great and true their beliefs are.

But, to me, all of it was just to get them to follow some rules. To get them to obey. Did those rules come from a God? Did they come from a prophet sent by a God? All that has to happen to get people to obey and follow those rules is to get them to believe in that God and prophet. And there's a whole bunch of prophets that talk about different Gods. Most people today get to choose. In days past, they were born into a religion and pretty much forced to believe. What causes them to believe today?

 

[F1fan]

Politics is not the issue in this thread except or the fact that extreme fundamentalist Christs and belief in dominion and the manifest destiny of their beliefs is slowly and surely taking over our society. Their view and goals are Biblical based on an ancient tribal view of the world.

Not modern. Not factual. Not realistic. Not responsible. It illustrates the dangers and threat that religious extremism poses. Irrational thinking is the norm.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I believe Trump will be the next president no matter what his legal status because even though Democrats are stupid enough to vote for a senile old man, independents will not buy into it and they hold the balance in elections.

Independents prefer criminal con men? Wow.

 

[CG Didymus]

I believe Trump will be the next president no matter what his legal status because even though Democrats are stupid enough to vote for a senile old man, independents will not buy into it and they hold the balance in elections.

How similar is that to people and their prophets and religions? One religious group thinks it is stupid that people would fall for some guy that is obviously a false prophet. Yet, their guy has his own baggage and problems that discredits him too. But does it matter to the believers?

Some believe, "Jesus is the only way." Others add their own prophet and say, "Our guy starts where Jesus left off and tells us what is really true." But then, for others, they question if Jesus was ever really the Jesus Messiah to begin with? And others look at all of the religions and wonder why people are "stupid" enough to believe in any of them.

To me, same stuff. Your guy and your beliefs are what's true, to you. And the things that others believe is false and they are being stupid and gullible for believing them.

How do you know you are not also being fooled and are being too gullible? Proof? Evidence? Facts? I know... Believers think they have enough proof and facts and evidence to support their beliefs. Do they? Yes, your group does. Those other guys? They don't. And those Atheists? They're just blind to the proof, facts and evidence.

 

[CG Didymus]

Not modern. Not factual. Not realistic. Not responsible. It illustrates the dangers and threat that religious extremism poses. Irrational thinking is the norm.

Whether it's the Bible or the Quran or the Baha'i writings, to those of us that aren't believers, people basing their beliefs on any Scripture of most any religion is going to be extreme. And what do religions do? They get charismatic leaders that can fire up their followers to impose their religious beliefs and laws, which they believe are God's laws, on all people in society, After all, they say, who knows best? Us? Or their invisible God?

 

[Subduction Zone]

I wish the Democrats would choose a better candidate too, but if it comes down to President Biden and Donald Trump again, my choice is clear. I'll vote for Joe Biden again. I'm a former conservative Christian, and I consistently voted Republican for 24 years until the 2016 presidential election. I voted third party for the first time ever in that election, and I voted Democratic for the first time ever in the 2020 presidential election. I won't politically support the Republican Party with my votes or money again as long as Trump and his loyal cohorts are controlling it. I'll continue to politically support the Democrats.

Just like me! I did the same. I lived in a safe state in 2016. I knew that my vote would not make a difference either way and I do not like the Clintons. But Trump made himself to be clearly a worse problem than I had first thought. So even though it did not make a difference again (I live in a very "Blue" state) I voted for Biden. I also saw that the principles that I support had been dropped by the Republican party. They barely give fiscal conservatism lip service. Instead they are only about tax cuts, not wise spending. There was nothing left there for me.

 

[shunyadragon]

One of the underlying impacts on society by fundamentalist Christians is on science in the educational system and society. It creates a negative image of science in many students from primary school through college. Our education system and universities suffer in competition with other Western and Eastern countries.. At present the science and graduate schools in most universities are becoming dominated by foreign students.

One complaint by some Theists is the claim id that many or most scientists are atheists. This is in part due to the fact that many theists reject the contemporary sciences involved with evolution and cosmology.

 

[shunyadragon]

They don't interpret the story the same way as Christians do either.

The Jewish Reformation began in the 1800s in Germany and the emphasis on Genesis and the Pentateuch and encouraging the education in the sciences greatly influenced Judaism in the contemporary world with many famous Jewish scientists in the 19th and 20th centuries. NAtural sciences in harmony with religious beliefs were a major part of the Jewish Reformation movement..

The Eden story is a metaphor for loss of innocence, engendered by knowledge of good and evil.

This is a contemporary sophisticated interpretation, but no evidence that this was originally the case.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Is God not ruling and if He’s not in charge, why would we care about His opinions?

Because it’s only a temporary situation. (Well, for quite a while now, but the issues are about to be resolved.)
You did read my entire post, right?
Here’s the answer to your particular question …

The best & wisest way to settle the issue, was to allow time to pass, stay out of human affairs, and let the evidence mount that mankind can’t beneficially rule themselves.

The issues are about settled; not only can mankind not rule themselves satisfyingly, to everyone’s enjoyment; now we’re destroying the Earth. Revelation 11:18.

 

[metis]

I believe Trump will be the next president no matter what his legal status because even though Democrats are stupid enough to vote for a senile old man, independents will not buy into it and they hold the balance in elections.

So, you actually believe that Biden is "stupid"?

BTW, right now, Biden is ahead of Trump when it comes to independents according to some fairly recent polls.

Frankly, I wish we had a good third choice, but ...

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Just like me! I did the same. I lived in a safe state in 2016. I knew that my vote would not make a difference either way and I do not like the Clintons. But Trump made himself to be clearly a worse problem than I had first thought. So even though it did not make a difference again (I live in a very "Blue" state) I voted for Biden. I also saw that the principles that I support had been dropped by the Republican party. They barely give fiscal conservatism lip service. Instead they are only about tax cuts, not wise spending. There was nothing left there for me.

I voted for Joe Biden in the sincere hope that he would be a better president than his predecessor, and while he is far from perfect, I still believe that he is a vast improvement over the narcissistic madman he replaced. I voted for him because I thought that he'd have a good chance of beating that narcissistic madman and becoming the next president. I took a chance, and it worked out for me. As I explained in my prior post in another thread, it truly cost me in my life to oppose his predecessor and vote for him (see my post here). Despite everything, I have no regrets about opposing and voting against Trump.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

You are confused because you are taking the Bible literally. Jesus was almost certainly not okay with it.

With giving his life? Uh, yes he was, realizing that that was one of the reasons he was sent…
Mark 10:45
Matthew 20:28.

If you read Mark…

I just quoted from it

the first Gospel, even that one indicates that he was less than pleased.

Where in Mark?

Justice is not satisfied if someone else suffers in your stead. That is not justice.

That actually, is love; but I wasn’t talking about the love tied in with it.

Justice is fairness. As descendants of A&E, through no fault of our own, we were “sold” and relegated to death because of our imperfect state. (Romans 5:12). Christ provided the remedy for that, voluntarily giving his perfect life in place of the perfect life Adam lost for us…. which we should have inherited / were in line for. Jesus gave the value of that sacrifice, to God.

Why do you think the Israelites had to provide all those animal sacrifices? It was for atonement, and as individuals, to maintain their relationship with Jehovah / Yahweh.

Otherwise, Jehovah would not have dealt with their imperfect status. He’s too holy.

But through Jesus, Jehovah made “the way” for all mankind.
He didn’t have to.

There’s also more involved with Jesus’ sacrifice.

And most of the supposed sins that people do are not even sins at all. The biggest sin is supposed to be disbelief. How does it hurt God if people do not believe in him?

It hurts them, not God. Ultimately.

The God of the Bible is immoral and has the morality of a domestic abuser. I have as yet to see a Christian that can even begin to defend the immorality of your version of God.

Sir Isaac Newton, one of the deepest thinkers of all time, ‘studied the Bible daily.’ Yet I never recall him saying that.

The Apostle John, who probably knew the Scriptures better than you & me, being aware of its many different historical accounts, wrote, “God is love.” (1 John 4:8) King David, Moses, and others wrote with similar expressions. All knew that God promises to restore life even to the “unrighteous.” — Acts 24:15

I would say that they knew things that you don’t. Or at least don’t want to know… or accept.


I can only hope you’ll be willing, one day.

 

[Subduction Zone]

With giving his life? Uh, yes he was, realizing that that was one of the reasons he was sent…
Mark 10:45
Matthew 20:28.


I just quoted from it

Where in Mark?

Mark 15; 34 and the same quote is in Matthew. Also one cannot take the Gospels too literally. They are after all largely mythical. But would it make sense for someone to complain? Yes.

That actually, is love; but I wasn’t talking about the love tied in with it.

No, that would be a mental illness at best. The whole story makes no sense.

Justice is fairness. As descendants of A&E, through no fault of our own, we were “sold” and relegated to death because of our imperfect state. (Romans 5:12). Christ provided the remedy for that, voluntarily giving his perfect life in place of the perfect life Adam lost for us…. which we should have inherited / were in line for. Jesus gave the value of that sacrifice, to God.

I need to remind you that not only is the A & E story a myth, but that is just more bad morals from the God of the Bible. You keep refuting your own God.

Why do you think the Israelites had to provide all those animal sacrifices? It was for atonement, and as individuals, to maintain their relationship with Jehovah / Yahweh.

No, because they were a primitive people with superstitious beliefs. Try to reason rationally. If you want to discuss this you have to promise to at least try.

Otherwise, Jehovah would not have dealt with their imperfect status. He’s too holy.

Nonsense. Now you are claiming that he is not onipotent.

But through Jesus, Jehovah made “the way” for all mankind.
He didn’t have to.

There’s also more involved with Jesus’ sacrifice.


It hurts them, not God. Ultimately.

Sir Isaac Newton, one of the deepest thinkers of all time, ‘studied the Bible daily.’ Yet I never recall him saying that.

The Apostle John, who probably knew the Scriptures better than you & me, being aware of its many different historical accounts, wrote, “God is love.” (1 John 4:8) King David, Moses, and others wrote with similar expressions. All knew that God promises to restore life even to the “unrighteous.” — Acts 24:15

I would say that they knew things that you don’t. Or at least don’t want to know… or accept.


I can only hope you’ll be willing, one day.

Seriously. Look at that mess. You cannot rationally claim that that makes one lick of sense.

If God is omnipotent and omniscient the whole mess is his fault anyway.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Mitochondrial Eve doesn't refer to the "first woman" or the only woman alive at her time.

It could. I doubt science will ever have the ability to determine that with complete accuracy. I wish.

But the evidence could mean that (which I think it does.)

She lived at a time when there were many other women, but only her mitochondrial lineage survives in present-day humans.

And that idea - to me - is far fetched.

That would be impossible. Noah's genome could not contain or produce all of the genetic diversity that we see today in the Y-chromosome.

Careful about saying “impossible“!
We still have a lot to learn! Look at all the genetic diversity we find in the varied canis genus.

 

[Subduction Zone]

It could. I doubt science will ever have the ability to determine that with complete accuracy. I wish.

No, they can tell that there were not only two people at that time. Do you want a clue? I will give you one: Cheetahs.

But the evidence could mean that (which I think it does.)

No, it really could not. The problem is that you do not understand biology at all. If you understood biology you would see that you are mistaken.

And that idea - to me - is far fetched.

Why? Now you have shown that you do not understand lines of descent and statistics.

Careful about saying “impossible“!
We still have a lot to learn! Look at all the genetic diversity we find in the varied canis genus.

No, you have a lot to learn , but you ignore those that know much more than you do.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

If you want to discuss this you have to promise to at least try.

Will you? It hasn’t happened yet.

Try to reason rationally.

I am.

You prefer to think that all the Jewish writers of the accepted Bible canon were liars, engaged in a huge con game.
If that were true, the Bible would have been thrown out, way before Jesus came! It would not have survived the centuries.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Will you? It hasn’t happened yet.

Please, you are forgetting the Ninth Commandment.

I am.

Now that sort of falsehood is not covered by the Ninth. It only tells you not to bear false witness against others. One can feel free to do it towards theselves.

You prefer to think that all the Jewish writers of the accepted Bible canon were liars, engaged in a huge con game.
If that were true, the Bible would have been thrown out, way before Jesus came! It would not have survived the centuries.

No, I don't If you were reasoning rationally you would see that what you said was blatantly false. Which raises the question, why do so many Christians think that people have to lie if they write down something that is wrong. Perhaps it is because you frequently claim that your God is a liar.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

No, I don't

Yes you do! (Look, you can’t even admit it.)

You claim all (well, most of) those prophecies written by Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, etc., were written after the events happened.

That would be deceit of the highest order; they would have had some pretty dark motives. (Fortunately it’s not true.) But that’s what you believe. Just admit it.


Have a pleasant day.