How can you be a True Christian™ if you don't take the Eden story literally?

[ppp]

Well, only one of the possibilities I mentioned is Judaic. Jesus only becomes relevant after he’s read into the text much later on, whoever put the Genesis texts together had no idea there would be someone called Jesus a new religion would be based on. Whatever they had in mind doesn’t necessarily match up with what we think.

So back to the OP, what is the use of Jesus? Just a guy with new ideas, some of them which were good?

 

[Tomef]

So back to the OP, what is the use of Jesus? Just a guy with new ideas, some of them which were good?

Do you mean what is the use of Jesus in general? Pretty big topic. The religion based on what people wrote about him has certainly had a lot of influence.

 

[Dimi95]

I would say that the serpent had a certain role in it when such questions are asked.
Even before Eve acted , because it devoloped a tought in her nature.
It's not just the sin , the human nature absorbed also the essence of sinning.
What do we inherit genetically from our parents?

 

[ppp]

Do you mean what is the use of Jesus in general? Pretty big topic. The religion based on what people wrote about him has certainly had a lot of influence.

I mean what purpose does Jesus serve in Christianity without a Christian-style Fall. Unlike in Judaism where everyone is born with a perfect soul, Christianity posits the Fall as a change of human nature, from some idyllic state, into a heritable state of sinful depravity. The purpose of Jesus in classical Christianity is to save humanity from created consequences of that otherwise inescapable corruption.

I don't know if you are consider yourself to be Christian, or not. The OP question was posed to people who both consider themselves Christians, but do not believe in a literal Fall. With a a literal fall (or as you raised, a series of events symbolized by the story), what purpose does Jesus serve?

 

[ppp]

I would say that the serpent had a certain role in it when such questions are asked.
Even before Eve acted , because it devoloped a tought in her nature.
It's not just the sin , the human nature absorbed also the essence of sinning.
What do we inherit genetically from our parents?

An all good, all powerful and all knowing being created an essence of sinning?

 

[Dimi95]

An all good, all powerful and all knowing being created an essence of sinning?

You are the kind of person that i hate to talk, i had in life few like you , it's almost impossible to agree with you.
Let me try at least to have a decent argument , even if you don't like it.

Where comes the need of constantly seeking the bad in the good.What's the purpose of it? Endless discussion ?
Why are you so constant on asking questions that will have different personal behavioir when for example you interact with someone who you care and personally know.I can also use the possible interaction with public figures,you will give them respect because of title.I wouldn't question your confidence in saying that , but i will question the aproach and the purpose.
You don't know me personally, why did you quote me and used these atributes , why do you judge my reason for saying it when you are acting like you didn't ask anything?
I don't answer sarcastic questions, so if you want to know something more specific and try to find a reason to procces it then ask.
What's the harm?
I am open always , you learn or i learn.
So we both benefit.
I wanted to give a reasonable answer on your previous quote , but you are ignorant on every perspective.

 

[Audie]

Citation needed.

Imagination- citation

 

[ppp]

You are the kind of person that i hate to talk, i had in life few like you , it's almost impossible to agree with you.
Let me try at least to have a decent argument , even if you don't like it.

No one is twisting your arm. Neither to engage with me, nor to persist in casting banal aspersions. Your choices are your own.

Where comes the need of constantly seeking the bad in the good.What's the purpose of it? Endless discussion ?

Your assumption of constantly seeking is unjustified. When it comes to religious texts, including the BIble, the bad need not be sought. It is both forefront and evident. The only reason that I did not see it until years after my deconversion is because of the methodologies of indoctrination; such as attempting to shame someone for noticing the bad as well as the good.

Why are you so constant on asking questions that will have different personal behavioir when for example you interact with someone who you care and personally know.

I cannot parse that sentence.

.I can also use the possible interaction with public figures,you will give them respect because of title.

That is a lie. I never give respect on the basis of title. I give respect on the basis of someone being a human being. I increase or decrease respect based upon their actions and words.

You don't know me personally, why did you quote me and used these atributes , why do you judge my reason for saying it when you are acting like you didn't ask anything?

I didn't judge your reason for saying it. I asked you a question. One that you have yet to directly address.

I don't answer sarcastic questions, so if you want to know something more specific and try to find a reason to procces it then ask.
What's the harm?

I was not being sarcastic. I was being 80% literal, and 20% sardonic. The answer to my question is, No.

I am open always , you learn or i learn.
So we both benefit.

You are open so long as long as I do not disagree with your assessments.

I wanted to give a reasonable answer on your previous quote , but you are ignorant on every perspective.

And yet, you are the one who repeatedly demeans and disparages.

Let me try at least to have a decent argument , even if you don't like it.

You did not present an argument. And argument is a series of statements that are offered in support of a conclusion. You did not do that. You posed several loaded questions, and made some pointless jibes. Never the less, I attempted to answer those questions.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Whether the report of Jesus and the Moneychangers is true or not, where it goes completely silly for me is that (a) the moneychangers were going about their business lawfully and (b) if Jesus had any argument about what they were doing, it was not with the moneychangers but the temple authorities ─ they were the only people capable of changing the practice.

I agree. It was actually a tremendous convenience that a Jew could simply buy an animal for sacrifice there at the temple, rather than go through the bother of herding their animal from afar. I really don't know what Jesus' problem with this practice was, but if he had one, he should have addressed it legally rather than become a vigilante.

 

[blü 2]

Jesus never goes to the appropriate places to fix anything.

Uh-huh. He even brought la Magdalene home.

 

[blü 2]

Luke omits that scene, he has Jesus come back every day and preach and the people loved it but the priests plotted to kill him.

So it's Mark's story, but whose version do we remember? The most recent version, the one with the most violence.'

Stories are improved in their retelling over time, as a comparison between Mark and later versions tends to show.

 

[Dimi95]

No one is twisting your arm. Neither to engage with me, nor to persist in casting banal aspersions. Your choices are your own.


Your assumption of constantly seeking is unjustified. When it comes to religious texts, including the BIble, the bad need not be sought. It is both forefront and evident. The only reason that I did not see it until years after my deconversion is because of the methodologies of indoctrination; such as attempting to shame someone for noticing the bad as well as the good.

I cannot parse that sentence.

That is a lie. I never give respect on the basis of title. I give respect on the basis of someone being a human being. I increase or decrease respect based upon their actions and words.

I didn't judge your reason for saying it. I asked you a question. One that you have yet to directly address.

I was not being sarcastic. I was being 80% literal, and 20% sardonic. The answer to my question is, No.
View attachment 81678

You are open so long as long as I do not disagree with your assessments.


And yet, you are the one who repeatedly demeans and disparages.


You did not present an argument. And argument is a series of statements that are offered in support of a conclusion. You did not do that. You posed several loaded questions, and made some pointless jibes. Never the less, I attempted to answer those questions.

The way you use your argument is aggresive for me.I feel it like that and i act based on that.It has to do with the respect that we mentioned.

Let's get to your question

When Cause comes in existence , it had to be uncaused , otherwise it requires a cause, then we can't have infinite regression , otherwise it will lose the effect.
As theist i belive that God is the uncaused..
He is the highest authority , so seek for your answer if you want to know it.

Also,
All that atributes that you mentioned can be used as defence to your question.
God is divine , we are not.

When you say noticing , you are sure that you don't mean pointing at it?
Because with your question i can assume that you aim the head directly..

It is justified , when it's sincere.
And you get that when you build relationship with someone.
Leave the percent, you know everything changes when you act on human behaviour.

 

[ppp]

The way you use your argument is aggresive for me.I feel it like that and i act based on that.It has to do with the respect that we mentioned.

Your choices are your own.

When Cause comes in existence , it had to be uncaused , otherwise it requires a cause, then we can't have infinite regression , otherwise it will lose the effect.
As theist i belive that God is the uncaused..
He is the highest authority , so seek for your answer if you want to know it.

This is an argument from contingency, which now only is fallacious, but has nothing to do with my question. You are using it as cover for that last sentence which is a round about way of saying that you have no idea.

Also,
All that atributes that you mentioned can be used as defence to your question.
God is divine , we are not.

That is not a defense.

It is justified , when it's sincere.

That is false. The Klan was both sincere and unjustified.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

And what happened immediately afterwards, according to the account in Matthew 21?
In verse 14…
“Also, blind and lame people came to him in the temple, and he cured them.”
If he had been in a “fit of rage,” as you said, do you think people would have approached him? In fact, one account says there were ‘boys in the Temple, saying “Save, we pray, the Son of David.”’

It’s always beneficial to look at context.

The context is that sycophants appear like magic no matter what.

 

[GardenLady]

I know many conservative Christians (men and women, MAGAs) who would be upset if Harris or any other woman were elected president.

I've heard this from conservative evangelicals who object to any woman having any "headship" over men in any venue. I've even heard someone object to a woman being an elementary school principal. Okay to be a teacher and have "headship" over children, but not ever be a supervisor of men. Yeah, let's toss out the talent of half the population based on first-century middle eastern culture.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Maybe in Jesus’ day… but it didn’t start out that way. It’s purpose was to be a “House of Worship”, a “House of Prayer.” 1 Kings 8:29; Isaiah 56:7.

(I’ll try to get back and address your other comments in this post, later. Take care.)

Every temple since they were invented has been nothing but a money pit.

 

[GardenLady]

To return to the original question, I do not see a need for a literal interpretation of Genesis to be a "true Christian," nor do I think any human has any standing to judge who is and is not a "true Christian."

I don't pretend to know all the details of the answer, but my take on this is that mammals at some point evolved a prefrontal cortex and humans eventually evolved self-consciousness. Once we had selves, we had the capacity to choose self-will over God's will. And there is our separation from God and the need for him to bring him back to himself.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

It is justified , when it's sincere.

People can be sincerely wrong. The nazis were most sincere -- they really believed they were doing good. And yet they were evil.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

I think that is a good analogy, Subduction Zone.

According to Mark 11:12–14, just before Jesus' public outburst of rage at the temple, he cursed a fig tree for bearing no fruit for him to eat. He noticed the tree from a distance and went to see whether it had any fruit to eat because he was hungry. When he arrived, all he found were leaves because it was not fig season. So instead of walking away and finding food elsewhere, he cursed the tree, and it withered. It couldn't grow fruit because it was out of season, but he still cursed it because there was nothing for him to eat. Why would he curse a barren tree if he wasn't upset that it bore no fruit for him to eat?

When he has magic copy/paste food powers, no less. He can feed 5000 but can’t get a snack?

 

[F1fan]

I am almost tempted to go back and read through the thread so that I might understand how it managed to drift from "True Christians" and the Garden of Eden to confused and dissatisfied Americans and the swamp of Washington D.C.

I think it went from how evangelicals support Trump to being about the election.

I would say that the serpent had a certain role in it when such questions are asked.

When you say the serpent you really mean God. Why? God created the serpent and did so for certain purposes.

Even before Eve acted , because it devoloped a tought in her nature.

Just as God intended.

It's not just the sin , the human nature absorbed also the essence of sinning.

Which was part of God’s creation.

What do we inherit genetically from our parents?

Genes.