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How can you justify the sheer complexity that evolution would have to evolve?

gnostic

The Lost One
Scientists analyze what is said to be evidence sometimes in a trial.

but it is the lawyers that win or lose the trials, not the sciences.

the medical examiners and forensic are only there for short durations of the trials, as expert witnesses. They can only answer questions, they cannot argue with the lawyers when being cross-examined.

Plus, the ME & forensic scientists can gather and examine evidence, ONlY. And only pass those information to the homicide law enforcement, so the ME & forensic scientists are not the ones making the arrests, or they are not ones who decide who should be arrested or charged.

it isn’t like in the TV series or movies, where they can more proactive approaches, in fighting crimes.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Job 26:7 ESV…
Job 26 ESV
“He stretches out the north over the void and hangs the earth on nothing.”



This is from noancient cultural perspective.”

Back then, such an expressed view would have been considered ignorant, at the very least.

But today we know it’s scientifically accurate!
That is reinterpretation and quote mining. Nothing more. I see that you ignored all of the Flat Earth verses and the "Earth does not move" verses as well.
 

John53

I go leaps and bounds
Premium Member
The argument is that there is nothing to prove or evidence (whichever word you choose) that water dwelling fish emerged from water, developed lungs and feet over a long period of time (by mutation and/or natural selection) and then eventually some of them became (evolved to) humans while others did not, in other words, stayed the same without evolving to such. Fossil evidence does not technically demonstrate the motions necessary to effect those changes. Therefore, to summarize from the fossil evidence that fish eventually evolved to be land dwellers, including humans is assumption accepted by many on the part of science.

You can't choose between proof or evidence, they have different meanings.

Hopefully you can explain to me why there are no mammal fossils from the Devonian?
 

Pogo

Well-Known Member
but it is the lawyers that win or lose the trials, not the sciences.

the medical examiners and forensic are only there for short durations of the trials, as expert witnesses. They can only answer questions, they cannot argue with the lawyers when being cross-examined.

Plus, the ME & forensic scientists can gather and examine evidence, ONlY. And only pass those information to the homicide law enforcement, so the ME & forensic scientists are not the ones making the arrests, or they are not ones who decide who should be arrested or charged.

it isn’t like in the TV series or movies, where they can more proactive approaches, in fighting crimes.
I think she is referring to Kitzmiller vs Dover where it was determined that Intelligent Design was not science but religion and thus not appropriate for science classes.

It is just another of her strawmen.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
This is your text: "if evidence and experiments are of no use to testing existing theories or new hypotheses, then what alternative methodology that you would suggest scientists should use?"
Behind that is that it is objective in effect. But sometimes you can't do all of life objectively and thus there is a version of science that deals with the subjective as subjective.

As this topic (in this thread) is regarding to Evolution, then it is about biology, such as genes, DNA, and proteins, as well as about the physical traits. Biologists are not deal with human behaviour, hence the evidence are not subjective.

Biology belonged to the Life Sciences in NATURAL SCIENCES.

And all Natural Sciences would include the following sciences:
  • Physics
  • Chemistry
  • Earth Sciences
  • Astronomy (which would include fields like astrophysics & physical cosmology)
  • Life Sciences
A lot of them, may have some crossover, or one science may entwined with other sciences, such as physics fields like Relativity & Quantum Mechanics may be used in astronomy, like astrophysics and cosmology, or like Nuclear Physics (eg nuclear fusion) can be used to understand the Nucleosynthesis processes in a star’s core.

Natural Sciences and Physical Sciences have to follow the requirements of Falsifiability, Scientific Method & Peer Review, hence the evidence that are acquired, examined & analysed, have to be physical - and either “natural” or “man-made”.

Natural Sciences (and Physical Sciences) don’t gather subjective evidence.

There are sciences that do deal with subjective evidence, such as human behaviour, emotion and the way they think, these are psychology, psychiatry, behavioural sciences, psychiatric treatments, group therapy, anthropology (study of human cultures), etc. All these would fall under Social Sciences.

Social Sciences have more numerous different types of sciences than the 5 sciences I have listed for Natural Sciences, because they include not just about human behaviours, but also about human cultures (geographical or ethnic customs, such as food they eat, music they composed, etc), and other human-related activities, such as archaeology, media studies, linguistics, demographics, laws & ethic, economics, political science, etc.

Social Sciences is all about the ways behave as individuals or within groups, eg communities, societies, etc, and the ways they interact with each other.

But let me bring back to this thread. This thread is about Evolution, not about human behaviours or their opinions, this topic has nothing to do with Social Sciences, so the evidence in Evolutionary Biology are physical and natural, not subjective evidence as used in psychology or psychiatry.

While humans is part of natural world, but you are forgetting that Evolutionary Biology are not just about human biology, but also about every other animals, as well as plants, fungi, and microorganisms like protists, bacteria and archaea. These other non-human organisms don’t have human behaviours, so the topic about human behaviours are not relevant to other living organisms.

And what do all living and extinct organisms have in common? Cells!

The physical & natural cells. The cells are responsible for life, and they all contained the following biological macromolecules:
  1. Proteins, which are responsible for organism’s structure and enzymes.
  2. Nucleic Acids, like DNA & RNA
  3. Carbohydrates, which have many functions including in Nucleic Acids (ribose sugar & deoxyribose sugar).
  4. Lipids

It is a lot more complex than this, but for any organism to reproduce, it will require both proteins and DNA to work together in the cells, for reproduction to occur, and that would include fertilisation and cell division.

All of that, since I started talking about cells, are physical and natural evidence, not subjective evidence of human behaviour.

So please, try to understand the differences between Natural Sciences & Social Sciences, because I really don’t want to talk about human behaviour, as they have nothing to do with this thread’s topic, and there other living organisms, not just humans, and Evolution are about all organisms, living or extinct.

if you want to talk more about human behaviour and their subjective experiences, then by all means, go start a new thread.
 

Pogo

Well-Known Member
As this topic (in this thread) is regarding to Evolution, then it is about biology, such as genes, DNA, and proteins, as well as about the physical traits. Biologists are not deal with human behaviour, hence the evidence are not subjective.

Biology belonged to the Life Sciences in NATURAL SCIENCES.

And all Natural Sciences would include the following sciences:
  • Physics
  • Chemistry
  • Earth Sciences
  • Astronomy (which would include fields like astrophysics & physical cosmology)
  • Life Sciences
A lot of them, may have some crossover, or one science may entwined with other sciences, such as physics fields like Relativity & Quantum Mechanics may be used in astronomy, like astrophysics and cosmology, or like Nuclear Physics (eg nuclear fusion) can be used to understand the Nucleosynthesis processes in a star’s core.

Natural Sciences and Physical Sciences have to follow the requirements of Falsifiability, Scientific Method & Peer Review, hence the evidence that are acquired, examined & analysed, have to be physical - and either “natural” or “man-made”.

Natural Sciences (and Physical Sciences) don’t gather subjective evidence.

There are sciences that do deal with subjective evidence, such as human behaviour, emotion and the way they think, these are psychology, psychiatry, behavioural sciences, psychiatric treatments, group therapy, anthropology (study of human cultures), etc. All these would fall under Social Sciences.

Social Sciences have more numerous different types of sciences than the 5 sciences I have listed for Natural Sciences, because they include not just about human behaviours, but also about human cultures (geographical or ethnic customs, such as food they eat, music they composed, etc), and other human-related activities, such as archaeology, media studies, linguistics, demographics, laws & ethic, economics, political science, etc.

Social Sciences is all about the ways behave as individuals or within groups, eg communities, societies, etc, and the ways they interact with each other.

But let me bring back to this thread. This thread is about Evolution, not about human behaviours or their opinions, this topic has nothing to do with Social Sciences, so the evidence in Evolutionary Biology are physical and natural, not subjective evidence as used in psychology or psychiatry.

While humans is part of natural world, but you are forgetting that Evolutionary Biology are not just about human biology, but also about every other animals, as well as plants, fungi, and microorganisms like protists, bacteria and archaea. These other non-human organisms don’t have human behaviours, so the topic about human behaviours are not relevant to other living organisms.

And what do all living and extinct organisms have in common? Cells!

The physical & natural cells. The cells are responsible for life, and they all contained the following biological macromolecules:
  1. Proteins, which are responsible for organism’s structure and enzymes.
  2. Nucleic Acids, like DNA & RNA
  3. Carbohydrates, which have many functions including in Nucleic Acids (ribose sugar & deoxyribose sugar).
  4. Lipids

It is a lot more complex than this, but for any organism to reproduce, it will require both proteins and DNA to work together in the cells, for reproduction to occur, and that would include fertilisation and cell division.

All of that, since I started talking about cells, are physical and natural evidence, not subjective evidence of human behaviour.

So please, try to understand the differences between Natural Sciences & Social Sciences, because I really don’t want to talk about human behaviour, as they have nothing to do with this thread’s topic, and there other living organisms, not just humans, and Evolution are about all organisms, living or extinct.

if you want to talk more about human behaviour and their subjective experiences, then by all means, go start a new thread.
The next step is all knowledge is subjective since it is in our mind. Interesting philosophy but basically worthless. IMO
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
You can't choose between proof or evidence, they have different meanings.

Hopefully you can explain to me why there are no mammal fossils from the Devonian?
Me? You want me to explain to you why there are no mammal fossils from that time period? Can you explain to me? I have no idea why there are no mammal fossils from the Devonian period. Maybe you can offer the summation of scientists. :)
Going back to evidence, however, juries decide sometimes on evidence. There are no camera details sometimes as to what happened. And sometimes those juries are wrong even though they went by the "evidence."
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
The next step is all knowledge is subjective since it is in our mind. Interesting philosophy but basically worthless. IMO
Certainly the actual details of emerging from one form to another from organism to organism is not there, that's for sure. Fossils do not show the changes in details regarding mutations and the like, going from water dwelling fish to land dwellers.
 

McBell

Unbound
Me? You want me to explain to you why there are no mammal fossils from that time period? Can you explain to me? I have no idea why there are no mammal fossils from the Devonian period.
God had not created them yet.

Maybe you can offer the summation of scientists.
Nothing had evolved into mammals yet.

Going back to evidence, however, juries decide sometimes on evidence. There are no camera details sometimes as to what happened. And sometimes those juries are wrong even though they went by the "evidence."
Sounds like creationists really need to get to work on their evidence skills....
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
God had not created them yet.


Nothing had evolved into mammals yet.


Sounds like creationists really need to get to work on their evidence skills....
OK, so during a certain period you say along with scientists that there were no mammals...
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
God had not created them yet.


Nothing had evolved into mammals yet.


Sounds like creationists really need to get to work on their evidence skills....
Again, all I'm going to say here is that there are no video cameras tracking the changing of forms from fish to land dwellers.
 

Pogo

Well-Known Member
Certainly the actual details of emerging from one form to another from organism to organism is not there, that's for sure. Fossils do not show the changes in details regarding mutations and the like, going from water dwelling fish to land dwellers.
You and your fairy story are not one who should be talking about details.
 

John53

I go leaps and bounds
Premium Member
Me? You want me to explain to you why there are no mammal fossils from that time period? Can you explain to me? I have no idea why there are no mammal fossils from the Devonian period. Maybe you can offer the summation of scientists. :)

Yes you. You're the one saying fossils aren't evidence therefore putting yourself forward as an expert. I'm just a dumb Aussie who thought there have been no mammal fossils found from that time period because they hadn't evolved yet. Set me straight.

Going back to evidence, however, juries decide sometimes on evidence. There are no camera details sometimes as to what happened. And sometimes those juries are wrong even though they went by the "evidence."

I think you'll find courts were around a long time before cameras. And what a shock, humans get things wrong sometimes. The relevant point for me is if they own up to the mistake and not try to cover it up.
 

John53

I go leaps and bounds
Premium Member
Certainly the actual details of emerging from one form to another from organism to organism is not there, that's for sure. Fossils do not show the changes in details regarding mutations and the like, going from water dwelling fish to land dwellers.

See, you're the fossil expert.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I think she is referring to Kitzmiller vs Dover where it was determined that Intelligent Design was not science but religion and thus not appropriate for science classes.

It is just another of her strawmen.
What is a strawman is your lack of recognition of what's true. And your refusal to admit what's not there in the line of evidence.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I feel you've missed a word
Lol. I should have put a comma or question mark after the word 'why.' So to rephrase a little bit, I know I'm not the fossil expert. So I will ask you this way...Do you think there are fossils in the lineup of evidence showing the miniscule changes from one organism to another?
 
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