How can you justify torturing someone forever?

[tarasan]

Oh stop dodging the question.

If your God is an anthropomorphized version of humans (i.e. if you subscribe to the notion that we are created in his image), there are certain parallels with what is "righteous" here on Earth and what is "righteous" or just in the afterlife. If there is no reason to adhere to any moral standarads, I doubt your doctrine would spell out the need to follow the Ten Commandments or find any relevence in morality or ethics while living.

Following that logic,then, what happens here effectively impacts what happens in the afterlife, and there is continuity in morality from birth to death to eternal destination.....and if torture is considered a viable destination, then surely there is relevence for using it here by your God's moral standards, no?

So, please answer my question. When is torture justifiable here on Earth?

erm actually no due to the fall our concept of right and wrong are twisted by sin, we have the "jist" of what is good but ultiamtely we do not truely understand, hence why Jesus seems soo strict in the NT, hence why ultimately we all fail because we cannot be "good" which what ive been saying for page after page....

so erm yeah your entire arguement falls appart on that premise.

ohhh and im not dodging the question the answer is that Sin is worth eternal torture if cant show why it isnt then really your wasting both our time maybe you should bow out of the convo or something...

 

[MysticSang'ha]

justice [ˈdʒʌstɪs]n1. the quality or fact of being just
2. (Philosophy) Ethicsa. the principle of fairness that like cases should be treated alike
b. a particular distribution of benefits and burdens fairly in accordance with a particular conception of what are to count as like cases
c. the principle that punishment should be proportionate to the offence

justice - definition of justice by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

If it is fair when you consider the crimes then yes it could most certianly be percieved as justice.

so long as sin is worth being punished forever for, then yes it is just

and if you pull the whole finit crime for infinite punishment malarcy again im gonna sigh sooooo hard.

According to your theology:

Who is more capable of offering amnesty and forgiveness, God or humans?

Who is more wise to offer appropriate consequences for human behavior, motivation, and/or failings due to mental/neurological handicaps? God or humans?

 

[enchanted_one1975]

As I see it, torturing someone forever produces no good results. Torturing someone forever is the most evil thing imaginable. Nothing is worse than this. How do you reasonably justify torturing a being for all eternity? How do you reasonably justify the belief that a good god would do the most evil thing possible?

You don't have to actually torture someone forever. You just have to make the threat of eternal torture to scare the desired result out of them.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

erm actually no due to the fall our concept of right and wrong are twisted by sin, we have the "jist" of what is good but ultiamtely we do not truely understand, hence why Jesus seems soo strict in the NT, hence why ultimately we all fail because we cannot be "good" which what ive been saying for page after page....

so erm yeah your entire arguement falls appart on that premise.

ohhh and im not dodging the question the answer is that Sin is worth eternal torture if cant show why it isnt then really your wasting both our time maybe you should bow out of the convo or something...

How sad. I'm getting from you that you do not believe in the inherent goodness in humans.

Oh, and btw, you can't chase me away that easily since you are obviously dodging the question. Ask my husband how persistent and stubborn I am.

 

[tarasan]

Correct me if I'm wrong here.

Christianity generally teaches that sin can be 'wiped out' by repentance and honour/respect/prayer/acceptance of God. The Ten Commandments defines lying as a sin. So, hypothetically, does this mean that if Hitler repented before his death, he would be forgiven, but a man who did charity work and helped others all his life, but was an atheist, and told a lie which he never repented for, would go to Hell, because the sin was 'staining his soul'? Is that your perception of justice?

the repentence would have to be genuine..... like really really genuine, to the extent of him not sinning through suicide, you can see how that might show him to be disingenuious right...

answer me this, can you make up bad things with good things?

I mean can I doing good turn back the clock and say stop a murder, or not degrade someone or not ly to someone?

no ulitimately we cannot heal sin, its like a stain in our lives that corrupts us.

 

[DeitySlayer]

the repentence would have to be genuine..... like really really genuine, to the extent of him not sinning through suicide

If he genuinely repented, would he be forgiven and placed 'over' the atheist who had led a humble and helping life but lied once without repentance?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

You don't have to actually torture someone forever. You just have to make the threat of eternal torture to scare the desired result out of them.

Fear is one of the most powerful motivators for short-term behavioral modification, and yet one of the worst methods for cultivating long-term trust in relationships.

In other words, you're absolutely right. :yes:

 

[tarasan]

How sad. I'm getting from you that you do not believe in the inherent goodness in humans.

Oh, and btw, you can't chase me away that easily since you are obviously dodging the question. Ask my husband how persistent and stubborn I am.

inherent Goodness, no of course not i said Goodness is in man just twisted, we know what is right but we either makes excuses for/or explain away our wrongs, we justify gossip, hate, lying etc, so no i do thing we have a good side but we have a bad side as well, one that we have to own up to, to the one that can save us from ourselves.

and no im not asking your husband cause you live in america..... what a mean thing to ask a 21 year man still wide eyed and naive about life.....

have you no shame :sad4:

 

[tarasan]

If he genuinely repented, would he be forgiven and placed 'over' the atheist who had led a humble and helping life but lied once without repentance?

that depends are you suggesting that the athiests can make up for their bad through good? that they could somehow turn back the clock and not sin?

 

[tarasan]

According to your theology:

Who is more capable of offering amnesty and forgiveness, God or humans?

Who is more wise to offer appropriate consequences for human behavior, motivation, and/or failings due to mental/neurological handicaps? God or humans?

God because humans cannot offer forgiveness of sins so tehy are incapable by definition.

and again by definition only God can pardon sin, humans are incapable.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

inherent Goodness, no of course not i said Goodness is in man just twisted, we know what is right but we either makes excuses for/or explain away our wrongs, we justify gossip, hate, lying etc, so no i do thing we have a good side but we have a bad side as well, one that we have to own up to, to the one that can save us from ourselves.

I agree that we are capable of good. And I understand that even an axe murderer is capable of enjoying time with his children at a family picnic. Therefore, I recognize that there are always blatant as well as little nuances of self-preservation in our psyches in a heck of a lot of human interactions.

But here's the thing, tarasan.......glossing over these inherent goodness in people while magnifying the egoistc grasping is warped in it's philosophy.....not the people like you and me. It's why dismissing the selfless actions, the love, the care, the compassion, the wisdom that had existed throughout a person's life and instead focusing on that "black mark" that you continue to insist on being so incredibly important - I find that to be an incredibly depressing and ultimately degrading view of humans.

There is an expectation that humans will do evil. That there is no capability of "saving" us from ourselves, and that no matter what good we do, we fall short of the glory of God. It's insisting that goodness in humans is inconsequential, and that only the very personal, intimate, and malleable beliefs matter.

It was this doctrine that ultimately sealed the deal for me to leave the Christian community and faith I had held dear for 22 years. I had been raised in a Catholic home, and then because I freaked out in college when I was taught that Catholics aren't "real" Christians and that I needed to repent and to be "saved", I can tell you that after that was when I became more neurotic. I tore my hair out, and cried for hours on end praying to God every night begging for forgiveness because when I felt compassion for others.....I worried that I had failed in His eyes. When I spouted off a harsh judgemental attitude, I felt more sure about my salvation but upon reflection I saw I was nowhere near being the Good Samaritan I had read about.

Now, you know a little more about me and why I completely reject this line of thinking. Letting the eternal damnation doctrine go was the biggest lift off my shoulders, and I was able to see others with more forgiveness as well as having the ability to forgive myself after regretting hurting others. At a certain point, we have to move on from our pasts, no matter how immature, selfish, or hurtful we may have been. The doctrine of eternal damnation disallows the truth of change of heart, of wisdom learned from our past mistakes, and of forgiveness.

and no im not asking your husband cause you live in america..... what a mean thing to ask a 21 year man still wide eyed and naive about life.....

Yes. You're young. I have four kids between the ages of 11 and 17. At a certain point, it's likely you and they will see that the world is not so clearly dualistic as all of you think, and that there are tons of grey areas to consider in many situations......especially when it comes to theology and cosmological arguments.

have you no shame :sad4:

By seeing somebody feel a bit uncomfortable? No shame, no. I don't mean to hurt, but I do mean to call out moral inconsistency and hypocrisy when I see it. And I know who I am and feel extremely comfortable in my own skin, so there's no shame in being simply who I am. :rainbow1:

 

[Benoni]

The whole eternal hell debate is centered on two mistranslated words. "eternal" and "hell".

 

[tarasan]

I agree that we are capable of good. And I understand that even an axe murderer is capable of enjoying time with his children at a family picnic. Therefore, I recognize that there are always blatant as well as little nuances of self-preservation in our psyches in a heck of a lot of human interactions.

But here's the thing, tarasan.......glossing over these inherent goodness in people while magnifying the egoistc grasping is warped in it's philosophy.....not the people like you and me. It's why dismissing the selfless actions, the love, the care, the compassion, the wisdom that had existed throughout a person's life and instead focusing on that "black mark" that you continue to insist on being so incredibly important - I find that to be an incredibly depressing and ultimately degrading view of humans.

There is an expectation that humans will do evil. That there is no capability of "saving" us from ourselves, and that no matter what good we do, we fall short of the glory of God. It's insisting that goodness in humans is inconsequential, and that only the very personal, intimate, and malleable beliefs matter.

It was this doctrine that ultimately sealed the deal for me to leave the Christian community and faith I had held dear for 22 years. I had been raised in a Catholic home, and then because I freaked out in college when I was taught that Catholics aren't "real" Christians and that I needed to repent and to be "saved", I can tell you that after that was when I became more neurotic. I tore my hair out, and cried for hours on end praying to God every night begging for forgiveness because when I felt compassion for others.....I worried that I had failed in His eyes. When I spouted off a harsh judgemental attitude, I felt more sure about my salvation but upon reflection I saw I was nowhere near being the Good Samaritan I had read about.

Now, you know a little more about me and why I completely reject this line of thinking. Letting the eternal damnation doctrine go was the biggest lift off my shoulders, and I was able to see others with more forgiveness as well as having the ability to forgive myself after regretting hurting others. At a certain point, we have to move on from our pasts, no matter how immature, selfish, or hurtful we may have been. The doctrine of eternal damnation disallows the truth of change of heart, of wisdom learned from our past mistakes, and of forgiveness.

I can see why people reject such a doctrine as this, they see all the good that people do and they dont want to loose sight of that, which is good there IS alot of good in humans and Im not denying there isnt or that God even has joy in the good that you do. It just that our Good cannot cover up our evil, the murderer cannot unmurder with good acts, we cannot take the hurt away from the people we insult. we cannot give back the dignity of the women/men we oggle or treat as cheap.

For my whole life I have understood that no matter what good I do i cannot change what I did and I could go into alot of detail about my soul searching and why I came to this conclusion but I wont, I just wanna say that focusing on one thing does not make the oppsite less, saying at how wonderfully tolerant the world is becoming doesnt stop the intolerance, saying look at the cures we have doesnt stop the diseases.

Rights cannot cover up wrongs, heck they cant even do it in this world, under our own imperfect justice.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I can see why people reject such a doctrine as this, they see all the good that people do and they dont want to loose sight of that, which is good there IS alot of good in humans and Im not denying there isnt or that God even has joy in the good that you do. It just that our Good cannot cover up our evil, the murderer cannot unmurder with good acts, we cannot take the hurt away from the people we insult. we cannot give back the dignity of the women/men we oggle or treat as cheap.

It isn't about covering the evil up with good. It's about the ability to forgive somebody of their transgressions against us. If I've been hurt by somebody, it's surprisingly in my own best interest to find a way to forgive them. If I have hurt somebody else, and they do not have it in them to forgive me, it's suprisingly in my own best interest to find a way to forgive myself and to learn from my mistakes. What you are propagating is the falsehood that people are incapable of changing for the better. To be more compassionate, open, wise, and kind after all is said and done.

For my whole life I have understood that no matter what good I do i cannot change what I did and I could go into alot of detail about my soul searching and why I came to this conclusion but I wont, I just wanna say that focusing on one thing does not make the oppsite less, saying at how wonderfully tolerant the world is becoming doesnt stop the intolerance, saying look at the cures we have doesnt stop the diseases.

Of course we can't change what we have done, but we can change ourselves.

Let me offer a scenario to you tarasan - somebody hurts you, willingly, painfully, and let's say they enjoyed every second of watching you go down. What is ethically the better way to respond afterwards: Holding a grudge with smug self-righteousness? Or forgiving them of their ignorance? We've all been hurt before, haven't we? Sometimes willfully and sometimes unintentionally. What's important is how we respond.

We've often seen news stories of parents of children who were the victims of rape and murder visit their child's murderer in prison and find themselves with the capacity to forgive them. How does that make most people feel when they hear those stories? Do they mostly think of the parent as foolish? Or do they find inspiration to be more kind and open to others because they see the potential kindness in action?

If your God is incapable of forgiving others for their sins, their beliefs, their attitudes, it's remarkable that people are capable of doing so.

Rights cannot cover up wrongs, heck they cant even do it in this world, under our own imperfect justice.

Again, you're focusing WAAAYYYY too much on human failings as being a permanent black mark. People always have the capacity to change.

 

[tarasan]

It isn't about covering the evil up with good. It's about the ability to forgive somebody of their transgressions against us. If I've been hurt by somebody, it's surprisingly in my own best interest to find a way to forgive them. If I have hurt somebody else, and they do not have it in them to forgive me, it's suprisingly in my own best interest to find a way to forgive myself and to learn from my mistakes. What you are propagating is the falsehood that people are incapable of changing for the better. To be more compassionate, open, wise, and kind after all is said and done.

I have never said they cant, I have only stated that they can never get into a state where they can get rid of their sin please dont put into my mouth.

Of course we can't change what we have done, but we can change ourselves.

Let me offer a scenario to you tarasan - somebody hurts you, willingly, painfully, and let's say they enjoyed every second of watching you go down. What is ethically the better way to respond afterwards: Holding a grudge with smug self-righteousness? Or forgiving them of their ignorance? We've all been hurt before, haven't we? Sometimes willfully and sometimes unintentionally. What's important is how we respond.

Indeed because i am incapable of giving a just verdict on the issue so i must forgive them as God forgave me and leave the justice to him, ultiamtely I dont know that man to make a judgement on him and i dont know how he will end up but God does so i leave the judgement in his hands.

We've often seen news stories of parents of children who were the victims of rape and murder visit their child's murderer in prison and find themselves with the capacity to forgive them. How does that make most people feel when they hear those stories? Do they mostly think of the parent as foolish? Or do they find inspiration to be more kind and open to others because they see the potential kindness in action?

I am moved by those people, the fact they are able to forgive someone who did that to them is exactly what the bible teaches, ultimately we human being cannot judge, or take vengence because it isnt about the sake of justice rather our own desire to cause pain and misery to others.

If your God is incapable of forgiving others for their sins, their beliefs, their attitudes, it's remarkable that people are capable of doing so.



Again, you're focusing WAAAYYYY too much on human failings as being a permanent black mark. People always have the capacity to change.

we forgive because ultimately we have no right to judge them for we did the same things they did, ultiamtely only God can judge them rightfully.

and again as i have said no matter how you change you will never not sin and no matter how much good you do you will never undo the wrongs youve done.

If a murder killed someone 10 years ago and during those ten years he became a great man, wouldnt we as a nation still expect him to pay for that murder?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I have never said they cant, I have only stated that they can never get into a state where they can get rid of their sin please dont put into my mouth.

Unable to get rid of their sin = permanent black mark = incapable of spiritual growth

I'm sorry, but do you see the word "Gullible Idiot" on my forehead?

Indeed because i am incapable of giving a just verdict on the issue so i must forgive them as God forgave me and leave the justice to him, ultiamtely I dont know that man to make a judgement on him and i dont know how he will end up but God does so i leave the judgement in his hands.

I commend you to aim for forgiveness. Now let's get back to discussing the inconsistency of God's standards for forgiveness.....

I am moved by those people, the fact they are able to forgive someone who did that to them is exactly what the bible teaches, ultimately we human being cannot judge, or take vengence because it isnt about the sake of justice rather our own desire to cause pain and misery to others.

And yet, Hell is pain and misery. Vengeance is NOT justice. That is the crux of my argument, tarasan. Hell is a metaphor and scare tactic to threaten vengeance on sinners unless they do whatever the authorities tell them to. People are willing to do quite a bit to save their own lives when threatened by a gun to their heads, even doing something they find to be morally wrong if the punishment is to be shot by the gunman.

Essentially, this is what the Eternal Hell doctrine does. It's a God that is threatening humans with eternal pain and misery if they don't do what He says. It's unjustifiable, egoistic, and abusive.

we forgive because ultimately we have no right to judge them for we did the same things they did, ultiamtely only God can judge them rightfully.

and again as i have said no matter how you change you will never not sin and no matter how much good you do you will never undo the wrongs youve done.

If a murder killed someone 10 years ago and during those ten years he became a great man, wouldnt we as a nation still expect him to pay for that murder?

Incarceration ideally ought not to be used as punishment, but at the very least merely segregating a person who could cause harm to others so they can't do it again. And again IDEALLY, incarceration ought to be used for rehabilitation, even if the prisoner and society feels as if there is no capacity for change. It is the most humane motivation.

Eternal Hell, on the other hand, is inhumane and unjust.

 

[tarasan]

Unable to get rid of their sin = permanent black mark = incapable of spiritual growth

I'm sorry, but do you see the word "Gullible Idiot" on my forehead?

yes being spiritualy dead doesnt not stop you striving to be good it merely means you are not able to see what the true good is, or even accept that you cannot achieve it.

and yet, Hell is pain and misery. Vengeance is NOT justice. That is the crux of my argument, tarasan. Hell is a metaphor and scare tactic to threaten vengeance on sinners unless they do whatever the authorities tell them to. People are willing to do quite a bit to save their own lives when threatened by a gun to their heads, even doing something they find to be morally wrong if the punishment is to be shot by the gunman.

Genetic Fallacy, first off and OUR VENGENCE isnt justice, hence we arnt allowed to do, which is what i said....

Essentially, this is what the Eternal Hell doctrine does. It's a God that is threatening humans with eternal pain and misery if they don't do what He says. It's unjustifiable, egoistic, and abusive.

He is stating a neccessity which comes out of our sin and unwillingness to repent, again I see no proof that Sin cannot justify it, your agruement "no it cant" doesnt really go into much depth.

Incarceration ideally ought not to be used as punishment, but at the very least merely segregating a person who could cause harm to others so they can't do it again. And again IDEALLY, incarceration ought to be used for rehabilitation, even if the prisoner and society feels as if there is no capacity for change. It is the most humane motivation.

Eternal Hell, on the other hand, is inhumane and unjust.

im glad you accept that sometimes incarceration is the only way, and again all just single statements no substance,

 

[MysticSang'ha]

yes being spiritualy dead doesnt not stop you striving to be good it merely means you are not able to see what the true good is, or even accept that you cannot achieve it.

Harsh and judgemental on unbelievers. Stop it. :slap:

Genetic Fallacy, first off and OUR VENGENCE isnt justice, hence we arnt allowed to do, which is what i said....

Oh please, my argument was not a non-sequitor. It is perfectly relevent to the issue at hand. It reveals the truth of Hell which is vengeance, not justice.

He is stating a neccessity which comes out of our sin and unwillingness to repent, again I see no proof that Sin cannot justify it, your agruement "no it cant" doesnt really go into much depth.

Careful there, tarasan. The hole your digging with your argument is getting deeper and deeper. Your interpretation continues to negate compassion in favor of vengeance. If that really is the message you're giving, is it any wonder why so many people reject it?

im glad you accept that sometimes incarceration is the only way, and again all just single statements no substance,

My motivations are out of compassion for the prisoners. What's your motivation, tarasan? :sarcastic

 

[tarasan]

Harsh and judgemental on unbelievers. Stop it.

:slap:

soz mate that is what spiritually dead means you are incapable.

[/b]

Oh please, my argument was not a non-sequitor. It is perfectly relevent to the issue at hand. It reveals the truth of Hell which is vengeance, not justice.

a logical fallacy is a logical fallacy, just because you can say how some originated doesnt prove it false.

Careful there, tarasan. The hole your digging with your argument is getting deeper and deeper. Your interpretation continues to negate compassion in favor of vengeance. If that really is the message you're giving, is it any wonder why so many people reject it?



My motivations are out of compassion for the prisoners. What's your motivation, tarasan? :sarcastic

you have been twisting what ive been saying for a long time in these posts so Ive let them go to get at the issues but Im warning You now to be careful.

you have not given me any reason or anyone any reason to think that sin isnt enough in fact you have been completely ignoring it, it seems you are more likely trying to dirt my appearence a bit, which I dont find funny, that last question was definately searching for some it has nothing to do with this discussion.

so im going to make this very very clear give me a good ratinal reason why sin isnt capable of being enough, lay it right out here beneth this text. if you dont then thats fine Ill get out of this conversation because Ive been repeating myself over and over and you ahve been misrepresenting my posts over and over.

 

[Webbster101]

As I see it, torturing someone forever produces no good results. Torturing someone forever is the most evil thing imaginable. Nothing is worse than this. How do you reasonably justify torturing a being for all eternity? How do you reasonably justify the belief that a good god would do the most evil thing possible?

The problem is that God gave us many chances and warnings to follow him but those that decide not to listen are punished. they had their warning and did not change that is why they are eternaly punished.