How certain are we that Jesus was historical?

[Bunyip]

OldBadger

Who was this man? How did two Jews end up on the run and pregnant as Herod began his census - what was happening? Was Joseph a carpenter building the garrison and Mary a high born servant impregnated by her Roman master? Were several legendsry characters combined by time and memory? Were parts invented later and insinuated into the legend? When was this man born? What year was he crucified?

Where was he and what did he do between infancy and his final mission?

Oh, and thanks mate.

 

[oldbadger]

We would both agree on plausibility.

I would not have thought that you would stretch to 'plausible', because I have always believed that to be 'more likely' than 'possible'.

In other words we would be in opposite camps, but that doesn't matter. What matters is the way that folks discuss and debate, surely. No names, but I can think of a couple of 'No HJers' who are polite, considerate and very knowledgeable in the way that they stand their ground. Equally I can think of HJers who are considerate. It's the nasty few....

 

[Bunyip]

I would not have thought that you would stretch to 'plausible', because I have always believed that to be 'more likely' than 'possible'.

In other words we would be in opposite camps, but that doesn't matter. What matters is the way that folks discuss and debate, surely. No names, but I can think of a couple of 'No HJers' who are polite, considerate and very knowledgeable in the way that they stand their ground. Equally I can think of HJers who are considerate. It's the nasty few....

Well for the record I would definitely accept most plausible explanation.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Well for the record I would definitely accept most plausible explanation.

I don't believe you.

 

[Bunyip]

I don't believe you.

Well you are mistaken. In fact if you look to my OP and my first comments on the HJ myth thread I state that position specifically and have defended it from the outset.

The historicity of Jesus is an inference to the best explanation. I was simply demonstrating that an inference to the best explanation is not an axiom, it is not a certainty.

 

[oldbadger]

OldBadger
Who was this man?

I can only speculate....

How did two Jews end up on the run and pregnant as Herod began his census - what was happening?

I don't think it was 6CE. I think it was circa 4BC and there was a man running from Sepphoris with his (raped?) fiancee.

Was Joseph a carpenter building the garrison and Mary a high born servant impregnated by her Roman master?

Joseph may have been a Sepphoris worker, and Mary a Sepphoris citizen, all wrapped up in the Judas BarEzekias revolt.

Were several legendsry characters combined by time and memory?

Yes....... I speculate that one was a person interested in herbs, poisons, healing, therapies etc who had a nice livelihood around the Lake, and the other a violent tough political with a strong following. I reckon they both ended up in Jerusalem at the same event, the one had a hissy fit over traders, the other held 2 days of lock-down demonstrations in the Courts. Both got tried. Sh-t..... what the hell do I know?

Were parts invented later and insinuated into the legend?

Of course....... of course. Hugely. Massively. Somebody very bright caught hold of the Oral Traditions and manipulated all into the most amazing human-control system of all time.

Where was he born?

On the road? Running? And which one? The fighter or the pacific healer?

What year was he crucified?

Which one? SonofFather or SonofMan? Maybe one of these did get to Kashmir.... What the hell do I know?

Where was he and what did he do between infancy and his final mission?

He lived? Loved? He did what we do? He had a life? The one a brigand, the other a medic?

As you can see...... I'm a bit lost in all this...... but then, so is everybody else....

WE CANNOT BE CERTAIN........ :biglaugh:

Oh, and thanks mate.

No probs....

 

[Bunyip]

OldBadger

Wow! I might have to digest that bit by bit. Wonderful!

The revolt. Start there.

 

[oldbadger]

OldBadger

Wow! I might have to digest that bit by bit. Wonderful!

The revolt. Start there.

I think you know most of this.
Sepphoris lies a morning's walk to the North (east?) of Nazareth. It was a Herodian city. Herod died 4bc. The son of a great brigand, Judas BarEzekias, took the city, broke into its armories and armed his men. The probably recruited many into their ranks thru' fear. They humbled the rest. Eventually Varus, Legate of Syria, had to mobilise a 2-3 legion army to go and sort it out. That army probably looted, pillaged, raped it's way all around the Galilean countryside, took the city, enslaved all the women and children to pay for the expenses, made the male prisoners tear down the city and then either marched them to Jerusalem for crucifixion or just executed them there. Lot of timber needed for circa 2000 crucifixions.... ?

When they left a small force may have been left to watch over all....... maybe they took an adjacent hill with a useful high level spring and made camp......... where one day the artisans of Antipas would also camp in tents to rebuild Sepphoris...... a place called Nazareth, which therefore would never had had much NT period archeology. Maybe the healer did work from there for a time.

..... In other words...... we need loads more scholarship and archeology on this one.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

You've been firing off so many consp-theories that i've lost track of what your original claim was mate. Like I said, present your claims one at a time and I'll be happy to blow them out of the water one at a time..

Name one conspiracy theory I've stated. Just one.

 

[Bunyip]

I think you know most of this.
Sepphoris lies a morning's walk to the North (east?) of Nazareth. It was a Herodian city. Herod died 4bc. The son of a great brigand, Judas BarEzekias, took the city, broke into its armories and armed his men. The probably recruited many into their ranks thru' fear. They humbled the rest. Eventually Varus, Legate of Syria, had to mobilise a 2-3 legion army to go and sort it out. That army probably looted, pillaged, raped it's way all around the Galilean countryside, took the city, enslaved all the women and children to pay for the expenses, made the male prisoners tear down the city and then either marched them to Jerusalem for crucifixion or just executed them there. Lot of timber needed for circa 2000 crucifixions.... ?

When they left a small force may have been left to watch over all....... maybe they took an adjacent hill with a useful high level spring and made camp......... where one day the artisans of Antipas would also camp in tents to rebuild Sepphoris...... a place called Nazareth, which therefore would never had had much NT period archeology. Maybe the healer did work from there for a time.

..... In other words...... we need loads more scholarship and archeology on this one.

What can I say? Makes perfect sense. How do we proceed to validate it?

 

[Bunyip]

OldBadger

A pregnant girl and a carpenter on the run from a specific event is a damn good start.

I would add that if your notion is true, there would be unlikely to be evidence of it. Two refugees from strife would be unlikely to leave a trail. So I would not be incluned to eliminate the idea on that basis.

In terms of supporting evidencd I think it likely that Joseph having a trade and Mary being high born wpuld fit your hypothesis.

 

[oldbadger]

OldBadger

A pregnant girl and a carpenter on the run from a specific event is a damn good start.

I would add that if your notion is true, there would be unlikely to be evidence of it. Two refugees from strife would be unlikely to leave a trail. So I would not be incluned to eliminate the idea on that basis.

In terms of supporting evidencd I think it likely that Joseph having a trade and Mary being high born wpuld fit your hypothesis.

OK...... all doors are open on this one....
My question is....... 'Why was anyone interested in Jesus's infancy?' Was it just small-talk and byethebye stuff that got built upon? There was no real need or relevance to the story apart from 'general interest'.

Maybe it was a:- 'Jesus' grew up amongst the rich and comfortable folks of Sepphoris, watching them as he slaved on the city-rebuild project. This is how he became so determined to speak up for the true Jews, the peasants and working classes who kept to the standards and rules as laid down in olden times. He learned to hate the Roman sympathisers who followed the Roman and Greek influences and ways..... the hypocrits and quislings who were sucking his land......... ?

 

[Bunyip]

OK...... all doors are open on this one....
My question is....... 'Why was anyone interested in Jesus's infancy?' Was it just small-talk and byethebye stuff that got built upon? There was no real need or relevance to the story apart from 'general interest'.

Maybe it was a:- 'Jesus' grew up amongst the rich and comfortable folks of Sepphoris, watching them as he slaved on the city-rebuild project. This is how he became so determined to speak up for the true Jews, the peasants and working classes who kept to the standards and rules as laid down in olden times. He learned to hate the Roman sympathisers who followed the Roman and Greek influences and ways..... the hypocrits and quislings who were sucking his land......... ?

Why is his historicity so important? THAT is the real question.

 

[oldbadger]

Why is his historicity so important? THAT is the real question.

Well......... I can only answer for self....
Brought up in quasi-Christian household.
Went to Christian school with Assembly prayers.
And the next school... And the next....
Fed on sandwiches with very wicked fillings hidden within Christian crusts.
I wasn't bright enough to cope with the hypocrisy/greed code.
Totally traumatised.
If I had been fed genuine rules which were for real life I would have been OK.
I discovered that people who claim to be good very often are not.
The only way for me to go was 'alone' and earning my keep by discovering their lies.
I became a Commercial Detective.
I became so good at it that folks wanted me to teach it, make course films about it, then write about it in Pro-mags.
When I retired I decided to do one last job....... Find out about this Jesus guy. I'd heard his name every day of my f---ed up childhood, so....
I'm not getting far, but I just want to find out as much as I can.
My last job.

 

[Bunyip]

Well......... I can only answer for self....
Brought up in quasi-Christian household.
Went to Christian school with Assembly prayers.
And the next school... And the next....
Fed on sandwiches with very wicked fillings hidden within Christian crusts.
I wasn't bright enough to cope with the hypocrisy/greed code.
Totally traumatised.
If I had been fed genuine rules which were for real life I would have been OK.
I discovered that people who claim to be good very often are not.
The only way for me to go was 'alone' and earning my keep by discovering their lies.
I became a Commercial Detective.
I became so good at it that folks wanted me to teach it, make course films about it, then write about it in Pro-mags.
When I retired I decided to do one last job....... Find out about this Jesus guy. I'd heard his name every day of my f---ed up childhood, so....
I'm not getting far, but I just want to find out as much as I can.
My last job.

Speechless. What can I say? Let's find the bugger.
I sense a kindred spirit.

 

[oldbadger]

Speechless. What can I say? Let's find the bugger.
I sense a kindred spirit.

...... Why not?
...... A sort of 'laying to rest', for me (us?) and for him.
...... If J was on RF he would be pretty furious at how his name got mixed up, mixed in and misused.

I have become fascinated with J's story, probably in the same way that so many people lose sight of their original objectives travelling into some kind of fanaticism.

That's...... it. So when I speculate and caste ideas around, causing so much upset amongst the academics (are they?) that I'm left quite untouched. And then a member will ask a question or write a single sentence ..... gold-dust, to be snatched, clutched and pocketed.

It's mad........ but it beats the hell out of golf, or stamp collecting :biglaugh:

 

[Desert Snake]

In terms of supporting evidencd I think it likely that Joseph having a trade and Mary being high born wpuld fit your hypothesis.

Mary wasn't high born dude, Jesus was born in a stable.

 

[fantome profane]

OldBadger

Who was this man? How did two Jews end up on the run and pregnant as Herod began his census - what was happening? Was Joseph a carpenter building the garrison and Mary a high born servant impregnated by her Roman master? Were several legendsry characters combined by time and memory? Were parts invented later and insinuated into the legend? When was this man born? What year was he crucified?

Where was he and what did he do between infancy and his final mission?

Oh, and thanks mate.

I don't believe we can say anything at all historically about Jesus before he began he met John the Baptist. I think that is the first thing that can be said to be historically plausible.

The childhood or infancy stories are not plausible.

 

[Prophet]

I don't believe we can say anything at all historically about Jesus before he began he met John the Baptist. I think that is the first thing that can be said to be historically plausible.

The childhood or infancy stories are not plausible.

That he was born to Joseph and Mary is the only historical element of Jesus' story before he had met John the Baptist. And by historical, I mean a plausible explanation for the evidence for which no competing explanations exist.

Oldbadger is putting out some very interesting Jesus fan fiction which seems largely ignorant of the differences between the historical Jesus and the embellished Jesus of the Bible, here clearly putting forth the ignorant assumption that the virgin birth and other such magical claims are something real historians should bother considering. This is, of course, because he is an agenda-driven imbecile.

 

[oldbadger]

I don't believe we can say anything at all historically about Jesus before he began he met John the Baptist. I think that is the first thing that can be said to be historically plausible.

The childhood or infancy stories are not plausible.

Gospel of Mark agrees with you.......
The historians mostly agree with you......

But Jesus's name is used so often, connecting him with Nazareth, that it seems reasonable to wonder about..... to speculate about the circumstances of his birth.

The low NT era Nazareth Archaeology, the Sepphoris incident, the date, the travelling couple, the possibility of the tented camp later used for Antipas's workers (maybe slightly too far away?) all offer us an opportunity to wonder....... how events might have happened.

It's not a point worth arguing heatedly over, more like just discussing.