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How certain are we that Jesus was historical?

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Bunyip

pro scapegoat
"One of the great myths in Scotland's national past is the life of Sir William Wallace..."

Morton, G. (1998). The Most Efficacious Patriot: The Heritage of William Wallace in Nineteenth-Century Scotland. The Scottish Historical Review, 224-251.
Hm.

In the past 300 years hundreds of thousands of books and millions of papers have been written by classical historians, historians, archaeologists, biblical scholars, NT scholars, early Christian scholars, scholars of Judaism, Near Eastern scholars, and so on, regarding Jesus' history. By Michael Grant's estimate we had 60,000 books in the 19th century alone. Of these, despite radically anti-Christian sentiments (so much so that they began the historical inquiry into Jesus' existence) that pervade historical Jesus studies virtually no expert in any field relevant here argues that we have anything remotely resembling good reason to think that Jesus possibly didn't exist at all. Put differently, the most critically examined person of all time is regarded by virtually everybody with any relevant expertise as obviously historical.

Wallace, however, is little better than King Arthur.

We don't even have a single legendary account within a generation or two of his death (like Mark) and no contemporary sources who can attest to his family and followers (like Paul) not really much of anything.




Wouldn't that be an appeal to authority? I mean, by your idiomatic definition?

I have no idiomatic definition you preposterous old windbag, and no it was not an appeal to authority. For god's sake - you are bleating like a stuck lamb. This fatuous tactic of yours of pretending somebody is using words wrong is something you rely on in the absence of an actual point.
That sounds exactly like what many have said regarding Jesus: an historical figure about whom many myths were attached but whom any history book will confirm was historical. Granted, there are differences: our evidence for Jesus is vastly greater in all respects and the critical study of his person far greater (not just in terms of numbers of study and the time period over which his historical person was doubted, argued for, argued against, etc., but also in the comparative lack of credulity by many a conservative Christian scholar and an overwhelming, selective skepticism by both Christian and non-Christian scholars which isn't applied to other figures from history.

Perhaps you best demonstration yet of bias, contradiction, and intellectual dishonesty. In a single post, you appeal to authority, you insult another when you've pledged you wouldn't, you've defended as an "historical figure" one for whom are evidence is pathetically scarce, and you have failed to cite the sources you appeal to.
I'm not appealing to any authority - you need to stop repeating the same empty accusations.
That wallace was a historical fugure for whom the evidence was scarce and much myth attached WAS THE POINT LEGION. Your epic, pompous, bloviating diatribe contributes nothing - it is just a pathetic, dishonest and utterly pointless personal attack.
 
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Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Which one (if it is appropriate to say there is "the" Jewish Messiah)? This failure is a serious drawback that historians like Carrier or even Grant (who, being a classicist with a background similar to my own far more than any biblical/NT scholar, writes far more about subjects I'm familiar with outside of early Christianity/historical Jesus studies). The comparative inability to understand Jewish beliefs, sects, movements, literature, or even Semitic languages by so many who seek to compare the so-called "Christ myth" with Greco-Roman and similar religious practices is ignorance when it comes to Judaism (and in particular 2nd temple Judaism).

The nature of an or the Jewish messiah is central to basically any historical or (informed) mythicist Jesus theory. In the 21st century alone those like Carrier and Doherty have depended upon particular interpretations of texts they can't read which are a selection from a much broader pool that those they denigrate actually study.

So what? You are talking out of your ****. Who cares what Doheryy and Carrier think? You yet again post a comment that is nothing more than an ad hominem attack on the authority of various scholars. And a long pointless lecture on an irrelevance. You are just terrible at this debate business Legion.

Remove the personal attacks, whines and bloviation and there is nothing left.
 
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Sonofason

Well-Known Member
One thing is for sure: Jesus did not exist as he is portrayed in the New Testament. That is clearly mythological. No one went around doing miracles, raising the dead or coming back to life after rotting in a tomb for 3 days. That just didn't happen.

Other than that, sure - it's possible that there was a person who is the "seed" for stories. But it really doesn't matter because we'll never be able to figure out who that person was, since they're buried under mythology and revisions. So he might as well not exist.

Please explain how the Son of God Almighty, the Creator of the Universe, could not have existed as portrayed in the New Testament. Explain why God's Son must be mythological. Explain how God's Son would be incapable of performing miracles and raising the dead. Explain how God, the creator of all things is incapable of raising up His dead Son.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
Please explain how the Son of God Almighty, the Creator of the Universe, could not have existed as portrayed in the New Testament. Explain why God's Son must be mythological. Explain how God's Son would be incapable of performing miracles and raising the dead. Explain how God, the creator of all things is incapable of raising up His dead Son.
Er ... pretty simple: the was not God, there is no God, no son of God, no miracles, no raising of the dead. The New Testament is just so much fiction. Clear enough?
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Please explain how the Son of God Almighty, the Creator of the Universe, could not have existed as portrayed in the New Testament. Explain why God's Son must be mythological. Explain how God's Son would be incapable of performing miracles and raising the dead. Explain how God, the creator of all things is incapable of raising up His dead Son.

Sure. God can not do those things because he doesn't exist.
 

Sonofason

Well-Known Member
No one was hassled by the Roman government simply because of their religion. Pre-Christian Rome was very tolerant of religion. There were hundreds or thousands of different religions within the Roman Empire. Even when it came to sacrifices for the Emperor, Rome was willing to accommodate people's religious beliefs. If your religion said you couldn't worship the Genius of the Emperor, they would permit you to make a sacrificial prayer to your deity for the blessing of the Emperor and the Empire. The most important thing wasn't worshiping the Emperor, but showing your goodwill and support towards the Emperor and Empire. The Romans really believed that everyone's deities existed and had the power to bless or to curse the Empire, so it was very important for the Romans to be in the good graces of the people's gods. The only time you would've gotten into trouble was for disturbing civil order, as with the wars with the fanatical Jews that refused to co-exist with the Empire and brought down the wrath of the legions on their heads, for instance.

This seems to be some fairly specific knowledge about a people who existed a very long time before you were born. Surely, this is not common knowledge, yet you present it as such. Do you intend to cite your resources, or do we just take your word for it?
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
This seems to be some fairly specific knowledge about a people who existed a very long time before you were born. Surely, this is not common knowledge, yet you present it as such. Do you intend to cite your resources, or do we just take your word for it?
You can take his word for it, that's pretty common knowledge possessed by most High School students.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I have no idiomatic definition you preposterous old windbag
"yourself, sir, should be old as I am, if like a crab you could go backward".

If it isn't idiomatic, then you could cite sources. You have no problem appealing to authority as you have so aptly demonstrated by referring to what historians think and failing to cite even the faintest evidence that you have any logical basis for you view. You cite no manuscripts that attest to those that are supposed evidence for Wallace. You can't even cite the texts! You just refer to nameless historians and nebulous historical books you suggest others pick up while you fail to indicate you have any idea of what you speak (apart from your claim to be an historian; no, sorry, to have majored in history; no, sorry, still wrong, you are an expert in espionage; but wait! this expertise is somehow a political science undergrad major? Sorry, your lies become very confusing).


and no it was not an appeal to authority.
It was less than that:
Wallace is a historical figure about whom many myths are attached. Any history book on him will confirm for you what I said.

You appealed to authority you can't even name. A fallacy if ever there were one.

This fatuous tactic of yours of pretending somebody is using words wrong is something you rely on in the absence of an actual point.

Not words. First, adhering to construction grammars as I do this notion is too limited but even so, it's the concepts. I cite dozens of scholarly sources you dismiss as "appeals to authority". Meanwhile you dismissively insult someone by asking them to pick up "any history book". Do you cite primary sources? No. Do you in any way indicate you can either understand our sources for Jesus or William Wallace? No. Can someone pick up a history book and find you are full of ****? Absolutely.

That wallace was a historical fugure for whom the evidence was scarce and much myth attached WAS THE POINT LEGION.
I overestimated your capacity to grasp my point. Yes, that was your point. Mine was how little you rely on to make historical claims when it comes to William Wallace vs. VASTLY greater evidence for Jesus.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member

Oh, I don't know. When I am trying to determine what to conclude from our sources I find it useful to have at least a passing familiarity with the basics. Obviously, you don't: the relevance of "the messiah", so utterly integral to the Jesus tradition, is dismissed by your "so what"?

Who cares what Doheryy and Carrier think?
Those interested in historical Jesus research.

You yet again post a comment that is nothing more than an ad hominem attack
No, that would be an attack in which I relied on insults to address your arguments. The use of insults in any argument isn't ad hominem unless it is the basis for the arguments. For example, attacking someone's belief in evolutionary theory because they are an atheist and have no background in science is ad hominem, as nowhere is the actual topic addressed. You inability to proffer an argument actually precludes my capacity to engage in ad hominem as you don't offer an argument which I could fallaciously bypass by attacks to your person.

on the authority of various scholars
Here's a clear example of an appeal to authority:
Look up Wallace and find out yourself instead of insulting me out of your ignorance. Wallace is a historical figure about whom many myths are attached. Any history book on him will confirm for you what I said.

Notice that
1) No actual argument for Wallace's historicity is offered
2) No primary sources are referenced nor secondary sources cited
3) The argument relies both on playing the victim and insulting the challenger
4) The dismissal of the counter-argument is "any history book...", an appeal to authority of the type that is actually fallacious (it appeals not to any actual authority nor to anything nor demonstrates that there is any such authority)


You are just terrible at this debate business Legion.


Remove the personal attacks
Beautiful juxtaposition.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You can take his word for it, that's pretty common knowledge possessed by most High School students.

But not scholarship by historians of antiquity (and no, I'm not going refer to scholarship by Christians).

“Was there ever such a thing as ‘Greek Religion’?...the Greeks lacked a separate word for 'religion'. When Herodotus wants to describe religions of the neighboring peoples of Greece, he uses the term ‘to worship the gods’, sebesthai tous theous…for Herodotus, the problem of describing foreign religions could be reduced to the question ‘which (other) gods do they worship and how’. In such an environment atheism was simply unthinkable. The term atheos did not originate before the fifth century and even then indicated only a lack of relations with the gods” pp. 1-2
Bremmer, J. N. (1994). Greek religion (Vol. 24). Cambridge University Press.

The tolerance of the Greek and Romans when it came to religion is based on a fundamental conceptual distinction. For them, religion existed as practices, tied up with every realm of the social sphere. Socrates was executed for impiety, the Romans slaughtered Jews and then Christians, and yet they held performances mocking the gods and received myth. Adherence to cultic practice was taken extremely seriously. "Religion", as we understand it today, was practically utterly absent in that both systems of belief or the capacity to conceptualize such an approach to "religious" practices was largely absent. The closest thing to religious treatises we find in pre-Christian antiquity tend to be philosophers criticizing "religion".
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
"yourself, sir, should be old as I am, if like a crab you could go backward".

If it isn't idiomatic, then you could cite sources. You have no problem appealing to authority as you have so aptly demonstrated by referring to what historians think and failing to cite even the faintest evidence that you have any logical basis for you view. You cite no manuscripts that attest to those that are supposed evidence for Wallace. You can't even cite the texts!

Because I am not appealing to them. You are just launching into yet another pointless, repetetive attack.
You just refer to nameless historians and nebulous historical books you suggest others pick up while you fail to indicate you have any idea of what you speak (apart from your claim to be an historian; no, sorry, to have majored in history; no, sorry, still wrong, you are an expert in espionage; but wait! this expertise is somehow a political science undergrad major? Sorry, your lies become very confusing).

Wow Legion, you shamelessly dishonest cretin - I told no lies about my qualifications. Again you repeat childish accusations that you have already posted ad naseum. Yes Legion, my History and Politics degree specialised in espionage and fundamentalist violence - there is no contradiction there and never was.
You appealed to authority you can't even name. A fallacy if ever there were one.
How many times are you going to repeat the same false accusation just in this post I wonder? I have made no appeal to authority.
Not words. First, adhering to construction grammars as I do this notion is too limited but even so, it's the concepts. I cite dozens of scholarly sources you dismiss as "appeals to authority". Meanwhile you dismissively insult someone by asking them to pick up "any history book". Do you cite primary sources? No. Do you in any way indicate you can either understand our sources for Jesus or William Wallace? No. Can someone pick up a history book and find you are full of ****? Absolutely.


I overestimated your capacity to grasp my point. Yes, that was your point. Mine was how little you rely on to make historical claims when it comes to William Wallace vs. VASTLY greater evidence for Jesus.

What claims did I make when it comes to Wallace? What are you drinking right now?
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Guys, guys, you're clutching at straws..:)
I've put up 4 Old T prophecies so far about Jesus, namely-
1- He'd be born in Bethlehem
2- He'd ride into Jerusalem on a donkey
3- He'd be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver
4- He'd be pierced with nails and a swordthrust

So I ask you for the zillionth time, who do you think those prophecies refer to?


And AGAIN these are twisted from what they actually say, or refer to!


And AGAIN the later writers had access to the stories, and the mistranslations. Thus those "not even there," having no proof of any of it, can write stories including them - falsely - for "authenticity."


The verse you folks claim is about Jesus being pierced with nails, actually says a lion.


Also, David is a King from God, out of Bethlehem.


EDIT - I forgot to add that we are told in several places that Jesus tells them to do certain things so "prophecy" can be fulfilled. That is NOT prophecy.


Supposedly Jesus speaking ...


Mat 21:2 Saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an *** tied, and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me.

Mat 21:3 And if any man say ought unto you, ye shall say, The Lord hath need of them; and straightway he will send them.

Mat 21:4 All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying,

Mat 21:5 Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ***, and a colt the foal of an ***.


*
 
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Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Legion

You write: Notice that
1) No actual argument for Wallace's historicity is offered
2) No primary sources are referenced nor secondary sources cited
3) The argument relies both on playing the victim and insulting the challenger
4) The dismissal of the counter-argument is "any history book...", an appeal to authority of the type that is actually fallacious (it appeals not to any actual authority nor to anything nor demonstrates that there is any such authority

I was making no appeal to authority that I would need to cite references for.
 

Shuttlecraft

.Navigator
Here's a 5th OT prophecy that was fulfilled, this one refers to the betrayal money thrown in the temple by Judas and used for a potters field-
Old Testament (Zechariah 11:13) says:
"And the Lord said to me, "Throw it to the potter", the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord to the potter"

New Testament (Matthew 27:5-7) fulfils it-
"Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself. The chief priests picked up the coins and said, "It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money." So they decided to use the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners"

That makes the score 5-0 to me so far!
Wait, I feel a catchphrase coming on-

Shuttlecraft: he shoots, he scores!..:)

shoots1_zpsa38dec6c.jpg~original
 
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Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Here's a 5th OT prophecy that was fulfilled, this one refers to the betrayal money thrown in the temple by Judas and used for a potters field-
Old Testament (Zechariah 11:13) says:
"And the Lord said to me, "Throw it to the potter"--the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord to the potter"

New Testament (Matthew 27:5-7) fulfils it-
"Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself. The chief priests picked up the coins and said, "It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money." So they decided to use the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners"


That makes the score 5-0 to me so far!
Wait, I feel a catchphrase coming on!

Shuttlecraft: he shoots, he scores..:)

That is not even a prophecy. So far you are at 0 for 5.
 

Shuttlecraft

.Navigator
Incidentally fans, I had a trial for Leicester City Football Club in 1969!
I hit the back of the net twice, helping our team of triallists to decisively trounce the other triallist team 4-2..:)
Then I went home to wait for the sign-up papers to arrive.
I'm still waiting..
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Here's a 5th OT prophecy that was fulfilled, this one refers to the betrayal money thrown in the temple by Judas and used for a potters field-
Old Testament (Zechariah 11:13) says:
"And the Lord said to me, "Throw it to the potter", the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord to the potter"

New Testament (Matthew 27:5-7) fulfils it-
"Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself. The chief priests picked up the coins and said, "It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money." So they decided to use the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners"

That makes the score 5-0 to me so far!
Wait, I feel a catchphrase coming on-

Shuttlecraft: he shoots, he scores!..:)


And AGAIN you are wrong! I already explained Zechariah a couple of posts back -


And AS USUAL - Posting later Christian texts about MISTRANSLATED/MISUNDERSTOOD texts, as proof of "prophecy" that actually isn't there - is not going to get you anywhere!



*
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Legion

I gave William Wallace as an example of a historical figure upon whom many layers of myth have been attached. Everything you posted about Wallace confirms my example perfectly.

You are attacking me (yet again) for failing to provide citations to authorities for a claim that you demonstrably are not even contesting - but affirming.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Because I am not appealing to them.
You are in the fallacious sense of the phrase. The classical fallacy isn't to appeal to scholarship or even to the argument of a single expert so long as the subject is that expert's area of specialty. It is to refer to (indirectly or directly) to some "authority" (the Pope, the King, "any history book"...) or my (still favorite) example of yours: mistaking a translator's commentary for Tactitus and arrogantly citing a "volume" Tacitus never wrote and attributing to Tacitus the translator's comments.

When you make blanket statements about e.g., Wallace's historicity and substantiate them with nothing but references what "any history book" would (according to you) indicate, this is at best an appeal to authority. I say at best because you don't refer to any history books you simply assert that "any" would do, but were it true that you could refer to an actual expert here (and you can; there are more than enough bona fide scholars who accept Wallace's historicity), you didn't. You dismissed another's claims with appeals to nebulous history books as the basis for your argument.


You are just launching into yet another pointless, repetetive attack.
"There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so". Personally, I find it important to address someone who makes disingenuous claims about objectivity, repeatedly lies about their own authority, maligns others while playing the victim (and in the same posts), and makes actual classical fallacies while dismissing legitimate arguments by falsely asserting they are fallacies. I find it especially important when such dishonesty pervades a forum for learning, the exchange of ideas, and to the extent possible mutual refinement and development of notions, ideas, beliefs, etc.

Wow Legion, you shamelessly dishonest cretin - I told no lies about my qualifications.
So you are an historian, an expertise in espionage, you majored in history, you majored in political science (remind me of that last claim which you attempted to equate with the claim to expertise in espionage)?

Yes Legion, my History and Politics degree specialised in espionage and fundamentalist violence
So the fact that your degree (which wasn't apparently in history itself but rather a joint degree) makes you an historian and a specialist in espionage? I have a few degrees too, but I don't call my self a psychologist or a specialist in classical history and ancient Greek and Latin because of my undergrad education. My father majored in physics at Dartmouth and then went to law school at Cornell and has practiced in law for some ~40 years. Is he a specialist in physics because of his degree in physics?

How many times are you going to repeat the same false accusation just in this post I wonder?
I haven't made any false accusations. However, as someone who has argued that references to scholarship are fallacious appeals to authority and fails to distinguish between expertise and getting an undergrad degree I can see how you misunderstanding of both academia and argumentation may present you with problems here.

However, it takes neither a degree nor any particular familiarity with formal logic to recognize that someone who simultaneously asserts we have can confirm Wallace's historicity and dismisses the idea that we can't that of Jesus by referencing "any history book" yet simultaneously not only fails to cite anything for any claims about historical Jesus studies or historical methods WHILE moreover dismissing references to REAL scholarship by claiming THESE are fallacious appeals is not interested in anything other than disingenuous, dogmatic insistence that a view informed by next to no research is substantive in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

I have made no appeal to authority.

You can't make claims about whether you have or haven't when you have so thoroughly demonstrated you don't understand the actual fallacy (and that's generously assuming you aren't simply deliberately distorting it).
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Legion

These shamelessly dishonest and painfully repetitive personal attacks are pathetic. You reduce yourself to trolling. And your trolling lies are increasingly silly - I SPECIALISED in espionage as part of a history degree - I never claimed to be a SPECIALIST. I did not claim to be a specialist. Can you really think of nothing better to do than make up these absurd lies and post them over and over again? I have never made any false claims about my education - you are repeating the same lie over and over and over instead of the topic.

Are you really that lost Legion?
 
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