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How certain are we that Jesus was historical?

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Shuttlecraft

.Navigator
..Again - Zechariah is not about Jesus!..

You gotta be jivin' us boy..:)
We're working through the ancient prophecies one by one here, firstly you seemed to think it was the Lone Ranger riding into Jerusalem on a donkey, and then you think Long John Silver betrayed Jesus!
Okay try this one on for size-
Isaiah prophesied in 800 BC that Jesus would be pierced by nails and spearthrust-
".. he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities..and by his wounds we are healed" (Isaiah 53:5)

so who exactly do you think he was talking about, a Samurai warlord?

Throne-blood2_zps504561be.gif~original
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
You put Jesus on a Triumph 650 6T single carb. :shrug:
And now you want me to believe anything that you tell me? :no:

:facepalm:
I had a John Player Special Dunstall Norton, that'd beat Jesus' bike any day.

norton-special.jpg

Not in quite the shape that this one's in, but the same bike.
 
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Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
You gotta be jivin' us boy..:)


ING - Not a boy!


We're working through the ancient prophecies one by one here, firstly you seemed to think it was the Lone Ranger riding into Jerusalem on a donkey,
and then you think Long John Silver betrayed Jesus!


ING - I Obviously never said any such crap. I don't know why you think this crap you write is funny, or all those stupid pictures?


Knowing something ahead of time, and then doing it, or writing it into the myth, is not fulfillment of prophecy,
especially when the "so-called prophecy," is just someone's misunderstanding of a text!



Okay try this one on for size-
Isaiah prophesied in 800 BC that Jesus would be pierced by nails and spearthrust-
".. he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities..and by his wounds we are healed" (Isaiah 53:5)

so who exactly do you think he was talking about, a Samurai warlord?


There is NO "pierced" in Isaiah 53:5!


And I have also already shown that Isaiah is not about Jesus.


It makes this very plain...


Isa 1:1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw
concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.


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Johnlove

Active Member
For some time I have been wanting to,challenge what I see to be a grossly overstated claim:

That the historicity of Jesus has been established. And that only denialists doubt the historicity of Jesus. It is often claimed that the historicity of Jesus is better evidenced than is the historicity of Julius Caeser and it it these over stated claims that I would like to challenge.

My position is that nothing in history is certain, and that the historicity of Jesus has not been adequately established. There is yet to be any evidence to connect the stories with a specific time, place and person.

I would love to discuss/debate this with any other members, but seem to get responses only from those who tend to stick to ad hominem attaks and false accusations. I can guarantee to be polite, accountable and honest, I can and will follow the argument and try to have a fun exchange if you will do the same.

All I ask is an honest discussion without the endless accusations, insults, deceptions and so on.

You ask how certain I am that Jesus is historical. My answer to you is very certain.
I am as certain Jesus is who scripture say he is, as I am of my earthly dad.
I am so certain of Jesus is God, because Jesus has shown himself to me, and has told me he is God.
Also I have walked in the powers of God for many years. Powers meaning miracles, healings, and prophesies. All done in the name of Jesus our Lord and God.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
You ask how certain I am that Jesus is historical. My answer to you is very certain.
I am as certain Jesus is who scripture say he is, as I am of my earthly dad.
I am so certain of Jesus is God, because Jesus has shown himself to me, and has told me he is God.
Also I have walked in the powers of God for many years. Powers meaning miracles, healings, and prophesies. All done in the name of Jesus our Lord and God.


Jesus never says he is God.


He calls himself a Son of God, and says we all can be such.


The awaited Messiah was to be a special human sent by God.


The trinity idea is NOT in the Bible.



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LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What I said about Walllace is well understood in Scotland, go read a book and stop being rude.

"One of the great myths in Scotland's national past is the life of Sir William Wallace..."

Morton, G. (1998). The Most Efficacious Patriot: The Heritage of William Wallace in Nineteenth-Century Scotland. The Scottish Historical Review, 224-251.
Hm.

In the past 300 years hundreds of thousands of books and millions of papers have been written by classical historians, historians, archaeologists, biblical scholars, NT scholars, early Christian scholars, scholars of Judaism, Near Eastern scholars, and so on, regarding Jesus' history. By Michael Grant's estimate we had 60,000 books in the 19th century alone. Of these, despite radically anti-Christian sentiments (so much so that they began the historical inquiry into Jesus' existence) that pervade historical Jesus studies virtually no expert in any field relevant here argues that we have anything remotely resembling good reason to think that Jesus possibly didn't exist at all. Put differently, the most critically examined person of all time is regarded by virtually everybody with any relevant expertise as obviously historical.

Wallace, however, is little better than King Arthur.

We don't even have a single legendary account within a generation or two of his death (like Mark) and no contemporary sources who can attest to his family and followers (like Paul) not really much of anything.


Look up Wallace and find out yourself instead of insulting me out of your ignorance.
Wouldn't that be an appeal to authority? I mean, by your idiomatic definition?

Wallace is a historical figure about whom many myths are attached. Any history book on him will confirm for you what I said.
That sounds exactly like what many have said regarding Jesus: an historical figure about whom many myths were attached but whom any history book will confirm was historical. Granted, there are differences: our evidence for Jesus is vastly greater in all respects and the critical study of his person far greater (not just in terms of numbers of study and the time period over which his historical person was doubted, argued for, argued against, etc., but also in the comparative lack of credulity by many a conservative Christian scholar and an overwhelming, selective skepticism by both Christian and non-Christian scholars which isn't applied to other figures from history.

Perhaps you best demonstration yet of bias, contradiction, and intellectual dishonesty. In a single post, you appeal to authority, you insult another when you've pledged you wouldn't, you've defended as an "historical figure" one for whom are evidence is pathetically scarce, and you have failed to cite the sources you appeal to.
 
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oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
I had a John Player Special Dunstall Norton, that'd beat Jesus' bike any day.

norton-special.jpg

Not in quite the shape that this one's in, but the same bike.

Wow!
In retirement I'm a part-time carpet-cleaner :)eek:)
6 months ago I went to a home, carpet-cleaning, which had a big 3'x5' line drawing of a Manx Norton in the lounge.
I mentioned it.
The lady said, 'Oh, that's my husband's. It's in the garage.
I asked, '350 or 500?'
She said, 'Oh, he's got both. He still races at Donnington.
He is 72.

For Scuttle.. to put J on a 6T is like ....... heresy..... they burned folks for less.... :)
 

Shuttlecraft

.Navigator
I have also already shown that Isaiah is not about Jesus..

I ask you for the FOURTH time- if Isaiah and the other prophets weren't talklng about Jesus, who do you think they WERE they talking about?
Remember, Jesus said-
"All things about me in the law of Moses,the Prophets and the Psalms,must be fulfilled" (Luke 24:44)

so can you tell us why the snooty priests simply didn't say "he's a fake" to make the people desert him in droves?
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
I ask you for the FOURTH time- if Isaiah and the other prophets weren't talklng about Jesus, who do you think they WERE they talking about?
That depends entirely on the specific reference. It is also entirely irrelevant. Pathetic attempts to read Jesus into the Tanakh are simply that - pathetic.

Remember, Jesus said-
"All things about me in the law of Moses,the Prophets and the Psalms,must be fulfilled" (Luke 24:44)
No, you remember: there is zero guarantee that Jesus said any such thing; rather, it is simply a statement attributed to Jesus by the author of Luke - a person who arguably never met the man he presumes to quote. Furthermore:
The Gospel of Luke was written by an anonymous author. The Gospel wasn't written and does not claim to be written by direct witnesses to the reported events.

He was educated, a man of means, probably urban, and someone who respected manual work, although not a worker himself; this is significant, because more high-brow writers of the time looked down on the artisans and small business-people who made up the early church of Paul and were presumably Luke's audience.

Most experts date the composition of Luke-Acts to around 80-90 CE, although some suggest 90-110. The eclipse of the traditional attribution to Luke the companion of Paul has meant that an early date for the gospel is now rarely put forward. There is evidence, both textual (the conflicts between Western and Alexandrian manuscript families) and from the Marcionite controversy (Marcion was a 2nd-century heretic who produced his own version of Christian scripture based on Luke's gospel and Paul's epistles) that Luke-Acts was still being substantially revised well into the 2nd century. [source]
Using 'Luke' to prove anything is laughable.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
I ask you for the FOURTH time- if Isaiah and the other prophets weren't talklng about Jesus, who do you think they WERE they talking about?
Remember, Jesus said-
"All things about me in the law of Moses,the Prophets and the Psalms,must be fulfilled" (Luke 24:44)

so can you tell us why the snooty priests simply didn't say "he's a fake" to make the people desert him in droves?


I've already told you, - and so does the text.


May I suggest you read it from the beginning, - highlighting every name, king, city destroyed, etc.


It took place in the past.


EDIT - Forgot to add - Luke is written by an anonymous author, (80-100 CE,) and does not even try to claim first hand knowledge.


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Shuttlecraft

.Navigator
..Pathetic attempts to read Jesus into the Tanakh are simply that - pathetic....there is zero guarantee that Jesus said any such thing..

You're Jewish so OF COURSE you'd say stuff like that mate, it's only to be expected..:)
There are over 300 prophecies about Jesus by your Old T prophets, so if you want to dishonour them by not believing them it's your head not mine!

Let me introduce you to your Jewish prophet Micah who said in 700 BC-
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from old, from ancient times" (Micah 5:2)

Who do you think he was talking about?
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
You're Jewish so OF COURSE you'd say stuff like that mate, it's only to be expected..:)
There are over 300 prophecies about Jesus by your Old T prophets, so if you want to dishonour them by not believing them it's your head not mine!

Let me introduce you to your Jewish prophet Micah who said in 700 BC-
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from old, from ancient times" (Micah 5:2)

Who do you think he was talking about?


NO - There are NOT 300 prophecies of Jesus in Tanakh!

There are JEWISH prophecies of THEIR coming Messiah -

AND THEN, there are verses having NOTHING to do with a messiah, - Jesus, - or otherwise, - that Christians mistranslate and try to claim are about Jesus!


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Shuttlecraft

.Navigator
Guys, guys, you're clutching at straws..:)
I've put up 4 Old T prophecies so far about Jesus, namely-
1- He'd be born in Bethlehem
2- He'd ride into Jerusalem on a donkey
3- He'd be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver
4- He'd be pierced with nails and a swordthrust

So I ask you for the zillionth time, who do you think those prophecies refer to?
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Well the Jewish Messiah of course.

Which one (if it is appropriate to say there is "the" Jewish Messiah)? This failure is a serious drawback that historians like Carrier or even Grant (who, being a classicist with a background similar to my own far more than any biblical/NT scholar, writes far more about subjects I'm familiar with outside of early Christianity/historical Jesus studies). The comparative inability to understand Jewish beliefs, sects, movements, literature, or even Semitic languages by so many who seek to compare the so-called "Christ myth" with Greco-Roman and similar religious practices is ignorance when it comes to Judaism (and in particular 2nd temple Judaism).

The nature of an or the Jewish messiah is central to basically any historical or (informed) mythicist Jesus theory. In the 21st century alone those like Carrier and Doherty have depended upon particular interpretations of texts they can't read which are a selection from a much broader pool that those they denigrate actually study.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I laways thought it was obvious that the Gospels were witness accounts. I have no idea how even Christians are falling for this ;'Gospels came later than epistles' nonsense.

Perhaps because they were all written in Greek, they aren't written in the first person (although the author of Luke does use the first person in Acts), the ending of John does use the first person but the first person plural and refers to their sources as one who separate from the authors, and the clear interdependency between the synoptics (for starts).
 
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