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How certain are we that Jesus was historical?

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oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
"The first allusion or implicit reference to the Hebrew scriptures comes early in the story in Mark 1, when the author introduces the character of John the Baptist, whom the author associates with the Jewish hero figure Elijah... Mark 1:6 refers to 2 Kings 1:8, which provides a description of Elijah." R.G.Price


Why do you ask?

The Thread Title is :-
How certain are we that Jesus was historical?

............ in Post 196 you wrote:-
Look for your real HJ if you like but I am not referring to OT prophesy, I am referring to scenes in the gospels taken from the OT such as the crucifixion scene that is lifted from Psalm 22 line for line. This rules out oral tradition.

Now..... I wanted to show that despite evangelical editing, fiddling and tinkering that this does not auto-annihilate the story of Jesus, but merely messes about with it.

So I went straight to the nearest report that I could think of which was closest to 'approaching certainty'. Josephus's mention of JtB in Antiquities doesn't attract so many claims of 'tinkering', and JtB does seem to have really existed.

But the evangelists still needed to mess with his story! Leather belts, etc.... A hairy 'look' about him....... Look, just like Elijah! So it doesn't matter how many times you wave the OT flag (as I call it), this doesn't definitely prove that whole story was lies.

Over two years ago a member suggested that JtB was unlikely to have had leather belts etc, but rather he had clothing, sandals or belt woven from naturally occurring fibre or plant material.

So constant references to OT prophesies or stories can help to thin out the gospel reports..... leaving us closer to plausibility....... but they don't destroy it all.

Of course....... none of this helps to arrive at 'certainty'.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
I think there was maybe a man that was made into the story of Jesus, and only one percent of the story maybe true.

I think there is more than that. :)
Rather than 'a man was made into Jesus', I think it could be 'Yeshua the Galilean Healer was made into Christ'.

Many have been debating about Christ and Christianity on this thread, but I think the OP was questioning the certainty of the Yeshua-story. Of course we all call him Jesus these days.

I reckon that at least 50% of the Goaspel of Mark could be based on a true story, including most of the miracles in G-Mark.... although somewhat enlarged. :)
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Why is Tacitus the only person who wrote about it, and that was almost a generation later?
I think your question can go a long way towards answering itself. Tacitus refers to an emperor's role in one of the most devastating calamities Rome had seen. Tacitus is also held up as an exemplar for the best of classical historians (unlike e.g., Herodotus, whom even Thucydides mocked, or Diogenes Laertius, who wrote half biographies and half mythologies). It should be obvious that he wouldn't event some story about this fire unless there were one. So what else do we have? Almost nothing. We have Suetonius and Pliny and precious else to even tell us that this fire happened. Later historians, such as Cassius, weren't born until a century or so later.

So the answer to your question is "because there were almost no historians in the first century whose works survive even in fragmentary form". In fact, there weren't many historians at all, particularly if you discount those who, like the gospel authors, were fond of incorporating myth and legend into the "historical" accounts.


Did the early Christians even quote him on it? It's not stacking up for me.
He disparaged them. He refers to Christianity as a "deadly superstition" which originated in Judaea, "the nexus/origin of this evil". He shows nothing but contempt for Christians and the founder whence came their name: Christ (whom he says was executed by Pilate).

Also, why would Christians quote him? We have evidence in Christian writings that pagans believed Jesus to be the product of Roman rape, that his followers were tainted atheists who should be executed, and that the entire foundation of Christianity is based on an executed criminal. We have no until the 18th century that anybody thought Jesus never lived. From Celsus through Julian, there were plenty of pagans who viciously attacked Christians in writing and whose works survive in whole or in part. There number of Christian responses/rejoinders is vastly greater. Yet nowhere did any Christian try to defend Jesus' historicity because nobody was challenging it.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Legion

Yet nowhere did any Christian try to defend Jesus' historicity because nobody was challenging it.

Which of course is not to say that nobody doubted it - which is what you are implying.

The reality is that the majority of people simply didn't even know about the story - it was not popularised until much later. Christianity has never exceeded about a third of the population. The Jews and other regional faiths at the time all rejected the Jesus story.

As an argument for historicity, claiming that nobody ever challenged it is about as bad an argument as you could possibly think up. Anyone with any knowledge of early Christianity would know that it was not a popular belief until many centuries later.

Legion, saying "Oh, unless you can prove that lots of credible people doubted it at the time - it must be true?"

Is just an appeal to popularity, not a logical rebuttal.

__________________
I would welcome
 
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poojac91

New Member
I think Jesus could do whatever he wanted to. Presence of earth, sun, moon and many other natural things are not less than miracles. Nature plays billions of trillions /countless miracles in every second in the whole universe but who could know them all and in every aspect. We cannot match the creator in any way and perhaps JESUS is his creation or he himself.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
I think Jesus could do whatever he wanted to. Presence of earth, sun, moon and many other natural things are not less than miracles. Nature plays billions of trillions /countless miracles in every second in the whole universe but who could know them all and in every aspect. We cannot match the creator in any way and perhaps JESUS is his creation or he himself.

Cheers poo

Welcome to the forum buddy.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The reality is that the majority of people simply didn't even know about the story
Any evidence for this?


- it was not popularised until much later.

Which is why the emperor knew about it roughly 30 years after Jesus was executed.

Christianity has never exceeded about a third of the population.
Of what? The world? And what does this matter? Jews were a tiny minority, yet their actions resulted in three military campaigns by the Roman empire alone in an interval of about a century.

The Jews and other regional faiths at the time all rejected the Jesus story
The Jews were the ones telling the story. The word "Christian" was not adopted by Christians but applied to them, as evidenced not only by its almost complete absence in our texts (Acts being an exception) but its linguistic derivation. Also, there were no "regional faiths", as outside of Judaism precious few religious traditions adhered to any faith (I wrote about this over three posts which you wrote off, but before you go asking for evidence that it is ridiculous to speak of "regional faiths" you may wish to actually read these, as I'll simply refer you to them). The author of Luke/Acts had a patron. The entirety of the NT was written in Greek despite the clear indications of an original Aramaic (and most likely oral, though some argue there existed written) transmission of the Jesus tradition. The first Jew we know of from a first person account is Paul, the first Christian we know of from any text. Fragments of manuscripts and fragments quoted by others attest to e.g., Jewish Christianity as in e.g., the Ebionites. By the beginning of the 2nd Century, Christian practice had influenced paganism enough to see the re-creation of Mithra in the form of a Romanist, mystery cult savior deity. By the 4th century, Christian texts were produced so frequently that scribes developed a shorthand in order to render easier the production of Christian texts.

As an argument for historicity, claiming that nobody ever challenged it is about as bad an argument as you could possibly think up.
That's not the argument. The argument is that we have many challenges from ancient texts. In fact, the incredibly numerous and lengthy quotes by the so-called "church fathers" and "heresy hunters" of "gnostic" texts were regarded as obviously biased because they were so bizarre it was clear the authors were distorting the beliefs of their rivals. That ended with the Nag Hammadi finds. It turned out that the Christian polemists had described and quoted their rivals far more accurately than anybody believed until we had the primary sources to compare.

So, when one finds extensive evidence not only of non-Christian attacks on Christianity (not to mention attacks within Christianities), but also even more extensive defenses against the charges, criticisms, and derisive opinions of non-Christians from Paul onwards, and instead of any suggestion that anybody thought Jesus non-historical we find that ardent critics of Christianity clearly think him historical, we have reason to ask whether anybody questioned Jesus' historicity the way they did e.g., Homer.

Anyone with any knowledge of early Christianity would know that it was not a popular belief until many centuries later.

Anybody with knowledge of antiquity, early Christianity, and Greco-Roman religious practice after the first century would know that the influence of Christianity wasn't limited to those who espoused Christian beliefs. It created contenders in the form of pagan cults and doctrines that didn't exist.

Legion, saying "Oh, unless you can prove that lots of credible people doubted it at the time - it must be true?"

I don't recall saying that, and certainly don't believe it. I look at evidence and what we can conclude. Given the criticisms and responses to them we possess, the fact that there is no "Jesus never lived" criticism until the 18th century is evidence. The fact that nobody generally thought of deities as historical and certainly didn't locate them in a specific place/time gives us further reason to conclude that critics of Christianity didn't imagine that a tradition so clearly similar to those told about historical persons from Pythagoras and Alexander the Great to Augustus, son of god, not only gives us reason to think there were no such critics but also one reason why: it takes a modern mind to look at the gospels and connect them with the kind of mythic deity largely created by Western "scholars" in the 18th and 19th centuries.

Is just an appeal to popularity, not a logical rebuttal.

I'm sure you are familiar with the (true) assertion that "if x, then y" is not logically equivalent with "if not x, then not y". Are you aware that it is mathematically proven that granted "if x, then y" is true, then "if not x then not y" necessarily more likely?
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Legion

Your rebuttals are typically bizarre and ill-considered. I will just deal with the first couple:
Originally Posted by*Bunyip*

The reality is that the majority of people simply didn't even know about the story
You respond:
Any evidence for this?

Legion, that is just painfully, heartbreakingly stupid. No I do not need to show evidence that the Jesus story was not well known at the time - that is just a ridiculous objection. If you need a citation for that, you are beyond help.
Bunyip:
- it was not popularised until much later.

Legion: Which is why the emperor knew about it roughly 30 years after Jesus was executed.

Another non-sequitur, so what if the Emperor knew? That doesn't mean that it was common knowledge, or a popular idea. Try to connect your rebuttals to the claim Legion.

Bunyip: Christianity has never exceeded about a third of the population.

Legion: Of what? The world? And what does this matter? Jews were a tiny minority, yet their actions resulted in three military campaigns by the Roman empire alone in an interval of about a century.

Yes mate, the world. And for god's sake man - the Jews were not a tiny minority in the Holy Land - think harder before you post.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Legion

I don't recall saying that, and certainly don't believe it. I look at evidence and what we can conclude. Given the criticisms and responses to them we possess, the fact that there is no "Jesus never lived" criticism until the 18th century is evidence.

Sheesh mate, you deny saying something, state unequivocally that it is not your position - AND THEN RESTATE THE SAME POSITION YOU HAVE JUST DENIED.

No Legion. it is not evidence. That there is no "Jesus never lived" criticism until the 18th century is not evidence - it*is not even a plausible claim.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Legion

Your rebuttals are typically bizarre and ill-considered. I will just deal with the first couple:
You respond:
Any evidence for this?

Legion, that is just painfully, heartbreakingly stupid. No I do not need to show evidence that the Jesus story was not well known at the time - that is just a ridiculous objection. If you need a citation for that, you are beyond help.
I don't need a citation for that. I can provide you with so many to the contrary it would be more of a delight than to finally be able to reference actual scholarship again without being accused of appealing to authority. Yet, once more, you make claims you can't substantiate. This time, however, you yourself bring up citations. Does this mean I can cite scholarship and have it be treated for the evidence it is by every academic on the planet or will I get more accusations that I am appealing to authority (rather than the heart of academia from classics to classical electrodynamics)?


Another non-sequitur, so what if the Emperor knew?
There is a reason why, of the many names known to us from lists on some recovered papyrus to those found engraved in stone (funerary, patronage, etc.) are just that: names. Most people never ventured much of anywhere, couldn't read, and didn't know anybody who thought they should be written of. In Nero's day, the number of those like Jesus (individuals who weren't Roman citizens and who lived outside of Rome) comprised the vast majority. Nero himself was so insignificant a figure, despite being not only emperor but infamous, that our sources for him are more scant than for Jesus. Paul, who travelled far more widely than Jesus, was also executed by Romans, and whose letters survive, is utterly absent from even our early Christian records (apart from Acts) and completely missing from both Jewish and pagan sources. John the Baptist, another figure from Jesus' day who made a bit of a splash in much the way Jesus did is known to us from the NT and Josephus. One of our most important sources for Pilate is the NT, and the others are both Jewish authors as Roman authors like Tacitus seem to have deemed him trivial but for his execution of the one called "Christ" (with few exceptions).

For the emperor of Rome to know of a movement initiated by a peasant from Galilee, or to be even capable of distinguishing between Jews and "Christians", is extremely significant.

It's the equivalent of the President of the US knowing you as a member of this forum.

That doesn't mean that it was common knowledge
Because Nero had some great intelligence agency as yet unknown to historians? How, do you imagine, that he learned of it?

Yes mate, the world. And for god's sake man - the Jews were not a tiny minority in the Holy Land - think harder before you post.

Which Jewish figures from the first century are attested to by non-Jewish sources?
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Legion, saying "Oh, unless you can prove that lots of credible people doubted it at the time - it must be true?"
I don't recall saying that, and certainly don't believe it.
Legion



Sheesh mate, you deny saying something, state unequivocally that it is not your position - AND THEN RESTATE THE SAME POSITION YOU HAVE JUST DENIED.
When did I ever state that "unless you can prove that lots of credible people doubted it at the time- it must be true?" Better yet, can you demonstrate that you actually understand my argument here enough to actually state what it is rather than misrepresent it? I am genuinely curious. Your tactics have so confounded any method by which I might judge the extent to which you simply don't know what you're talking about but honestly believe what you are saying vs. a deliberate, conscious choice to abandon any intellectual integrity that I am quite unsure when or if you are doing one vs the other. It would be nice if you could show you are capable of representing what I actually argue. Then at least I would know that the disconnect isn't a complete lack of comprehension on your part.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Legion

I said:"That doesn't mean that it was common knowledge"

You reply: "Because Nero had some great intelligence agency as yet unknown to historians? How, do you imagine, that he learned of it?"

Of course Nero had an extensive intelligence agency, and it is well known to historians. He was the Emperor, he had a far greater access to information than the average person. All of the Emperors had extensive networks of spies - and their existence is well documented.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Legion

I said:"That doesn't mean that it was common knowledge"

You reply: "Because Nero had some great intelligence agency as yet unknown to historians? How, do you imagine, that he learned of it?"

I said significantly more than that. Please indicate either that you are consciously misrepresenting me or that you are capable of understanding what I have said (or, perhaps you don't bother reading what I write and simply quote-mine me to misrepresent me).

I described in some detail why Nero's knowledge entailed that it was common knowledge. I can elaborate, but as you have never yet bothered to refer to, acknowledge, address, or even indicate you understand my arguments, what's the point?

Of course Nero had an extensive intelligence agency
Attested to by...? In a period in which there were no police, in which you could murder and there was no crime unless a suit was brought forth (and you were a citizen), and in an area so alien to the Roman empire that letters to the emperor after Nero's death by Pliny indicate that the uppermost echelon of Roman authority was largely ignorant of the nature/essence (and most relevant details) of not only Christianity but the Jewish matrix out of which it grew, you assert that Nero had some "intelligence agency"? Based upon what?

and it is well known to historians.
This would be an appeal to authority if you could cite a source that said this. It is, in fact, even less than this. It isn't just that you can't cite historical scholarship or even historians here. You can't cite anything that can. Your argument is a suggestion that you could appeal to authority.

He was the Emperor, he had a far greater access to information than the average person

Top persons in the CIA, NSA, DOD, etc., have far greater access to information than you or I. However, unless you or I do something that brings us to their attention, they are utterly ignorant of us both. And this is in the information age.

All of the Emperors had extensive networks of spies

Which is why they not only failed to understand the Jewish dynamics of the first century among elites, but failed even to realize the plans for three vast, significant military revolts which involved Jewish citizens of Rome like Josephus. It's why the Roman Empire used a proxy ruler like Herod until his successor proved inept and Pilate was sent in only to be removed for incompetence. All because of the various emperors' secret knowledge that is nowhere attested to and apparently was utterly ignored.

and their existence is well documented.
Excellent! Then provide references to such documentation of intelligence forces/operations in Judaea and across the Roman empire that Nero knew of/commanded/used.
 
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`mud

Just old
Premium Member
WOW !!!!!!
This thread is growing like a mushroom.
I'll have to read it again later...I think I missed some !!
~
'mud
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Emperor Nero was persecuting Christians in the 60's AD ....
That's a fable that Christians made up long after it supposedly happened.
And just when you begin to think that the rerun could not possibly be sillier than its vapid predecessor … :facepalm:
What are you babbling about?
I'm not surprised that you don't know.

There's a number of reasons why the authenticity of that passage may be doubted: Is Tacitus Reference an Interpolation?
So you wigged from …
"That's a fable that Christians made …"​
to …
"… that passage may be doubted: ..."​
and then defend this nonsense with a lovely example of selection bias. So cute. :D
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
I think Jesus could do whatever he wanted to. Presence of earth, sun, moon and many other natural things are not less than miracles. Nature plays billions of trillions /countless miracles in every second in the whole universe but who could know them all and in every aspect. We cannot match the creator in any way and perhaps JESUS is his creation or he himself.

Welcome.... :)
It's good here..... :D
 

JM2C

CHRISTIAN
For some time I have been wanting to,challenge what I see to be a grossly overstated claim:

That the historicity of Jesus has been established.

And that only denialists doubt the historicity of Jesus.

It is often claimed that the historicity of Jesus is better evidenced than is the historicity of Julius Caeser and it it these over stated claims that I would like to challenge.

My position is that nothing in history is certain, and that the historicity of Jesus has not been adequately established.

There is yet to be any evidence to connect the stories with a specific time, place and person.
Since you doubt all the written evidence about the earthly ministry of The Lord Jesus Christ, then you must have stronger written evidence against it. This written evidence that you have, can I see it or can you prove it that they were more authentic than the one you are refuting? Thanks
It is often claimed that the historicity of Jesus is better evidenced than is the historicity of Julius Caeser and it it these over stated claims that I would like to challenge.

My position is that nothing in history is certain, and that the historicity of Jesus has not been adequately established.
How would you challenge “the historicity of The Lord Jesus Christ” with “the historicity of Julius Caesar” if your “position is that nothing in history is certain”? Please explain.
 

JM2C

CHRISTIAN
Disciple, think logically, now.
If a person really went around turning water into wine, feeding 5,000 from a few fish and loaves of bread, raising a rotting corpse to life (!), changing his body to able to shine like the Sun during a visit from apparitions, rose from the dead after rotting in a tomb for 3 days (!) and ascended bodily into the sky

(!), this person would not only be the biggest sensation in the ancient world but the biggest sensation in all of human history!
Think logically now, we are still talking about The Lord Jesus Christ, even today in this forum, aren’t we?

The libraries wouldn't be able to hold all the contemporary writings documenting this amazing, out of the world person's many mind-blowing feats!

Jn 21:25 Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.
 
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