How did Satan get to the garden of Eden?

[waitasec]

"

Again, NOPE!!, your assumptions are showing. "These early church fathers" are the ones who "fell away from the true understanding of the scriptures". As has been shown. They are the ones who persecuted and killed the true believers of GOD and called them Heretics.(because they refused to propagate "man-made traditions and decrees man by men" as they saw them false by studying the scriptures.)

As Paul states in Rom.11:1-5 a "Remnant" of GOD'S people remained faithful to HIS teachings. "Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace." It is those who continued to truthfully/faithfully teach and spread the "Everlasting Gospel". Rev.12:17 continues to show the "Remnant" to be present to the last of earth's history. "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ".

and those are the very same church fathers that put your bible together

 

[sincerly]

and those are the very same church fathers that put your bible together

Waitasec, The "early church fathers" included all of those who were left in charge of the various congregations which were srarted by Paul and others as they went into all the world, "teaching the whatsoever I have told you"/Everlasting Gospel.
The canon of "books"/BIBLE wasn't completed until 397 A.D.?
Apparently, the Holy Spirit wasn't in agreement with the earlier attempts to include Books or leave out books which should NOT be in that which HE INSPIRED AS THE TRUE MESSAGES FROM GOD.

Those scriptures have this attestation concerning people who are opposed to GOD.
Ex.9:13-16, (to Pharoah), "And in very deed for this [cause] have I raised thee up, for to shew [in] thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth." (Rom.9:17)

There is nothing strange about GOD'S use of unbelievers to bring about HIS desired results.

 

[waitasec]

Waitasec, The "early church fathers" included all of those who were left in charge of the various congregations which were srarted by Paul and others as they went into all the world, "teaching the whatsoever I have told you"/Everlasting Gospel.
The canon of "books"/BIBLE wasn't completed until 397 A.D.?
Apparently, the Holy Spirit wasn't in agreement with the earlier attempts to include Books or leave out books which should NOT be in that which HE INSPIRED AS THE TRUE MESSAGES FROM GOD.

Those scriptures have this attestation concerning people who are opposed to GOD.
Ex.9:13-16, (to Pharoah), "And in very deed for this [cause] have I raised thee up, for to shew [in] thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth." (Rom.9:17)

There is nothing strange about GOD'S use of unbelievers to bring about HIS desired results.

are you having a problem with comprehension?

your response from my post seems to attest to the fact.

:yes:

who do you think edited the books you revere?
god?

:biglaugh:

 

[sincerly]

are you having a problem with comprehension?

your response from my post seems to attest to the fact.

:yes:

who do you think edited the books you revere?
god?

:biglaugh:

I answered your question :

Again, NOPE!!, your assumptions are showing. "These early church fathers" are the ones who "fell away from the true understanding of the scriptures". As has been shown. They are the ones who persecuted and killed the true believers of GOD and called them Heretics.(because they refused to propagate "man-made traditions and decrees man by men" as they(true believers) saw them(those man-made dogmas) false by studying the scriptures.)

As Paul states in Rom.11:1-5 a "Remnant" of GOD'S people remained faithful to HIS teachings. "Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace." It is those who continued to truthfully/faithfully teach and spread the "Everlasting Gospel". Rev.12:17 continues to show the "Remnant" to be present to the last of earth's history. "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ".

The remnant---then and now--- take their beliefs from the same truths which Jesus said to search and from which HE taught. The writings of the Apostles who taught those same principles from the same source were Not teaching the "traditions of Men".
Over several hundred years the many separate Writings(O.T. and N.T.)were combined into a single Book(Bible), but each of the writings retained its identity as previous.

and those are the very same church fathers that put your bible together

Nope! the organization was the same, but the "fathers"(people) changed over the years. The complilation into "one book" of the multiple of "books" didn't alter the messages each contained.

but of course your belief, ultimately shaped by these early church fathers no less, is the correct one.
excellent.

Nope! the correct "belief" was formalized by the truth of the Scriptures which remained the same in/from all the Scriptures/"Books".

who do you think edited the books you revere?
god?

"Edited??" There was no changing of the Messages contained in each of those works/manuscriptes/ written by Holy Spirit inspired men relating the messages given by GOD. That is an assumption of your making.
The Bible is to be respected and Believed, but NOT worshiped.
The things of/by GOD do not need "editing". However, humans have corrupted them by their choice.

It was prophesied that man would "think to change God's times and laws". Dan.7:25.

 

[waitasec]

I answered your question :

The remnant---then and now--- take their beliefs from the same truths which Jesus said to search and from which HE taught. The writings of the Apostles who taught those same principles from the same source were Not teaching the "traditions of Men".
Over several hundred years the many separate Writings(O.T. and N.T.)were combined into a single Book(Bible), but each of the writings retained its identity as previous.



Nope! the organization was the same, but the "fathers"(people) changed over the years. The complilation into "one book" of the multiple of "books" didn't alter the messages each contained.



Nope! the correct "belief" was formalized by the truth of the Scriptures which remained the same in/from all the Scriptures/"Books".



"Edited??" There was no changing of the Messages contained in each of those works/manuscriptes/ written by Holy Spirit inspired men relating the messages given by GOD. That is an assumption of your making.
The Bible is to be respected and Believed, but NOT worshiped.
The things of/by GOD do not need "editing". However, humans have corrupted them by their choice.

It was prophesied that man would "think to change God's times and laws". Dan.7:25.

yes edited...
if the bible 'proves' the bible is the word of god it's not proof it's circular logic
apparently you have much to learn youngling...much to learn...

i suggest you open a history book

 

[sincerly]

yes edited...
if the bible 'proves' the bible is the word of god it's not proof it's circular logic
apparently you have much to learn youngling...much to learn...

i suggest you open a history book

Waitasec, The Bible is the writings of many persons. Therefore, different "Witnesses" and the testimony of two establishes the truth of the matter. It is only circular in that it continues to show the truth. Not falseness of its messages. That is why it is the "Everlasting Gospel". It is "human logic" that relies upon its own skepticism that winds up "chasing it tail."

The Bible is the best history book dealing with mankind.
I do not deny that I have a lot to learn, but so far you have not produced anything worth retaining. Knowledge/instruction/wisdom comes from GOD(Source), NOT from other human Beings as the source..

"Youngling"?? You don't know me.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Waitasec, The Bible is the writings of many persons.

It certainly is .. not only that, but it contains many different revelations / accounts of varying ages.

For instance, the Torah, the Psalms and the Gospels .. how can you say that they are all of thesame level of reliability? Many have been edited by non-Christians, particularly the OT..

I would agree with you completely that it's basic truth, but to believe the Bible is "foolproof in every detail" is not logical, although I understand that this is a matter of faith / belief.
..and then we have interpretation / creed / political interference

 

[waitasec]

Waitasec, The Bible is the writings of many persons. Therefore, different "Witnesses" and the testimony of two establishes the truth of the matter. It is only circular in that it continues to show the truth. Not falseness of its messages. That is why it is the "Everlasting Gospel". It is "human logic" that relies upon its own skepticism that winds up "chasing it tail."

The Bible is the best history book dealing with mankind.
I do not deny that I have a lot to learn, but so far you have not produced anything worth retaining. Knowledge/instruction/wisdom comes from GOD(Source), NOT from other human Beings as the source..

there is no truth...just opinions.
which is why there are many many interpretations/theology's of the bible to begin with

"Youngling"?? You don't know me.

i know you by the way you reason and it is very youngling like.

 

[Katzpur]

Apparently, the Holy Spirit wasn't in agreement with the earlier attempts to include Books or leave out books which should NOT be in that which HE INSPIRED AS THE TRUE MESSAGES FROM GOD.

I'm just curious... How do you know that the Holy Spirit wasn't right in the first place and that the later changes were what was uninspired?

Consider the following facts: In 1740, a list of the canonical books compiled in Rome just prior to 200 A.D. was discovered in the Ambrosian Libary in Milan, Italy. Missing from the accepted canon in 200 A.D. were Hebrews, James, 1 Peter and 2 Peter. Only two of John's letters were considered canonical, not three, but we don't know for sure which two. The Apocalypse of Peter and the Wisdom of Solomon, however, were included.

Eusebius of Caesara, one of the most notable Church historians to have ever lived, described (in about 300 A.D.) a canon which included only twenty-seven of the books in today's New Testament. Hebrews, James, and 2 Peter where described as questionable, as were Jude and Revelation. In the fourth century, St. Gregory of Nazianzus continued to reject Revelation and states, "You have all. If there is any any besides these, it is not among the genuine [books]." The canon he set forth was ratified some three centuries later. These are just a handful of examples of how the canon changed over the years. Can you think of a single logical reason why the Holy Spirit would have directed people of one period of time to "get it right" and let people of a previous age to flounder?

The Greek Codex Claromontanus, one of the most significant New Testament manuscripts, contains a list of the canonical books of the fourth century. (The manuscript itself originates in the sixth century, however most scholars believe that the actual list dates back to the Alexandrian Church from two centuries earlier.) That list did not exclude Philippians, 1 and 2 Thessalonians or Hebrews. But guess what? It does include the Epistle of Barnabas and the Shepherd of Hermas.

 

[sincerly]

It certainly is .. not only that, but it contains many different revelations / accounts of varying ages.

For instance, the Torah, the Psalms and the Gospels .. how can you say that they are all of thesame level of reliability? Many have been edited by non-Christians, particularly the OT..

I would agree with you completely that it's basic truth, but to believe the Bible is "foolproof in every detail" is not logical, although I understand that this is a matter of faith / belief.
..and then we have interpretation / creed / political interference

Hi Muhammad, if I'm not mistaken "Isa" is the equivelant to "Jesus" in the Quran.
True! The Torah does include the Law, the Prophets, the Psalms, etc. ALL Inspired by the Creator GOD of ALLTHINGS. The Writings of those believers from the Crucifixion of Jesus were added to the O.T. to give the prophesied and fulfilled expectations of GOD showing what is/has been the correct relationship of Mankind to GOD and one another---from Creation to the end of time as we know it and throughout eternity.
It is very logical, even if in mankind's puny understanding and intelligence it appears "illogical". (Which the answer to your last sentence---all based upon the thinking of mankind.)

 

[sincerly]

there is no truth...just opinions.
which is why there are many many interpretations/theology's of the bible to begin with

Then you are admitting that one should not believe you since there is no such thing as "truth". (i.e.) everything is only a lie.

Agreed, man's opinion's in/by not accepting the truths of the inspired messages of GOD have lead to placing one'sself as "god"---which brings us back to another of those first lies. "Ye shall be as gods".

i know you by the way you reason and it is very youngling like.

Thanks, (Matt.18:3), "And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven".

 

[waitasec]

Then you are admitting that one should not believe you since there is no such thing as "truth". (i.e.) everything is only a lie.

lets put this in the proper perspective shall we...

It is only circular in that it continues to show the truth. .

there is no truth...just opinions.
which is why there are many many interpretations/theology's of the bible to begin with.

Agreed, man's opinion's in/by not accepting the truths of the inspired messages of GOD have lead to placing one'sself as "god"---which brings us back to another of those first lies. "Ye shall be as gods".

and by what criteria do you suppose mans opinion should be based upon?
mans opinion...?

Thanks, (Matt.18:3), "And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven".

children are easily manipulated...

 

[sincerly]

I'm just curious... How do you know that the Holy Spirit wasn't right in the first place and that the later changes were what was uninspired?

Hi Katzpur, Jesus taught from the O.T. writings---as did Paul the truths of those teachings are not contested. In Isa.8:20, God had given an answer to what one could believe and what was false., "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them."
Dan.7:25, prophesied that a power would arise from the break-up of that fourth empire(Roman) which would "And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time."
Paul gave a few more details of this prophecy in 2Thess.2:3-4. "Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."
And in Acts 20:29-30, while speaking to the elders of Ephesus Paul said, "For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them."

Therefore, those first centuries were filled with "early church fathers" whose "Opinions" were contrary to the truths of the messages given in the O.T. and whose validity was given in the N.T. as "fulfilled.
Just as Luke acknowledged that the Life and teachings of Jesus be recorded (Luke1:1-3), The HOLY Spirit, must have inspired one or more of the truth filled "fathers" to combine in one "Book" the "Everlasting Gospel" from the recordings of the creation of everything and the fall of Mankind to the Redemptive/Atoning process /"Finished" by the "Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world."

Since The Holy Spirit had the ability to "Inspire the truth filled sctiptures" as Jesus attested(John 17:17), "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.", I have no doubt that the Holy Spirit would guide in the finalization of the books of the canon(BIBLE). Without those spurious writings.

However, because they "think to change GOD's times and laws", NO Human can do that.. False teachings will always be False.

No Matter how many "lists are made or found"----only those which are producing the same "Everlasting Gospel" message are valid.
Like today, many are willing to accept error because it is included with TRUTH. They fail to see that the contradiction by the "little sin" is still death dealing. Or as James said, break one= breaking them all.

Can you think of a single logical reason why the Holy Spirit would have directed people of one period of time to "get it right" and let people of a previous age to flounder?

Does GOD(The Holy Spirit or The SON or THE Father) force anyone??
Think of the God's People waiting in slavery conditions for four generations while "the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full".(Gen.15:16)
Man's inhumanity to man still is prevalent.
The canon was closed????, but is still debated even when the Holy Spirit acknowledged the proper epistles were agreed upon.
Today ALL are free to accept or reject the Scriptures/Jesus, but as 2Peter 1:10, exhorts; "...give diligence to make your calling and election sure...."

 

[gnostic]

[True! The Torah does include the Law, the Prophets, the Psalms, etc. ALL Inspired by the Creator GOD of ALLTHINGS. /QUOTE]

Technically, the Torah only comprised of the works attributed to Moses. So only the 1st five books, from Genesis to Deuternomy.

Some scholars would include the book of Joshua because it was part of fulfillment of covenant to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, another covenant to Moses, which is the taking and settling of the ancient land - Canaan.

 

[sincerly]

[True! The Torah does include the Law, the Prophets, the Psalms, etc. ALL Inspired by the Creator GOD of ALLTHINGS. /QUOTE]

Technically, the Torah only comprised of the works attributed to Moses. So only the 1st five books, from Genesis to Deuternomy.

Some scholars would include the book of Joshua because it was part of fulfillment of covenant to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, another covenant to Moses, which is the taking and settling of the ancient land - Canaan.

Hi Gnostic, In Deut.5:22, we have these words.(40 years after the Mt.Sinai giving of the Law), "These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me."
In context, Moses has recounted the giving of the Ten Commandments. But that isn't all that is meant by "Torah"=Law. In those five Books of Moses, one sees that "Judgments", "Ordinances", "Statutes", "laws", "commandments", etc are given. These are all the basis for the "Torah=laws" which were to guide the nation of Israel in a right relationship to GOD and each other and the nations surrounding them.
In that context, the Prophets and their writings which had these "laws" as the reason for the warnings, admonitions, guidance in their repentance and return to the ways of GOD----from which they had strayed.

GOD said those same "laws" were to be observed by all peoples who desired to have GOD as their GOD and live among HIS people. Deut.31:12, "Gather the people together, men, and women, and children, and thy stranger that [is] within thy gates, that they may hear, and that they may learn, and fear the LORD your God, and observe to do all the words of this law:"
And,(Ex.12:49), "One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you. " ; (Lev.24:22), "Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I [am] the LORD your God."

 

[sincerly]

lets put this in the proper perspective shall we...

I did.

and by what criteria do you suppose mans opinion should be based upon?
mans opinion...?

Yes, in connection to secular issues and the truthfulness of that "opinion". You know "thats why i don't expect much from the human species"."

When it comes to the scriptures, Not hunan "opinions," but the context of the scriptural truthfulness.

children are easily manipulated...

It does seem that Ehrman did a good job with you.
However, your posts still ring false in their trying to manipulate my change to your erroneous way of "thinking".

 

[waitasec]

I did.

don't worry i'm not expecting much from your posts

Yes, in connection to secular issues and the truthfulness of that "opinion". You know "thats why i don't expect much from the human species"."

When it comes to the scriptures, Not hunan "opinions," but the context of the scriptural truthfulness.

the men who flew into the WTC had the same idea...
excellent.

It does seem that Ehrman did a good job with you.
However, your posts still ring false in their trying to manipulate my change to your erroneous way of "thinking".

don't worry, i don't expect you to understand...

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

I might have to start another thread on this topic, but I have another question, and it's something I've thought about over the last day or two: why do we even assume, apart from church teaching, that the snake even was Satan? From my understanding, Satan, all throughout the OT, was simply another of God's angels, who might have had a crap position, but still an angel nonetheless. It seems to me that it wasn't until Christianity that Satan was demonized, into the main progenitor of evil, due to the Zoroastrian influence on early Christianity.

 

[outhouse]

why do we even assume, apart from church teaching, that the snake even was Satan?

because of religious mythology.

While genesis never claims as much, in private church school I was taught by the pastors it was the devil

From my understanding, Satan, all throughout the OT, was simply another of God's angels

the same way god has evolved through literature, so has the devil.

he starts out as gods adversary and goes from there to red guy with a pitchfork and horns, in cultural mythology.

It seems to me that it wasn't until Christianity that Satan was demonized, into the main progenitor of evil, due to the Zoroastrian influence on early Christianity.

they have always had there own growing concept that changed with time and other influences

it even evolved through christianity

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

because of religious mythology.

While genesis never claims as much, in private church school I was taught by the pastors it was the devil




the same way god has evolved through literature, so has the devil.

he starts out as gods adversary and goes from there to red guy with a pitchfork and horns, in cultural mythology.




they have always had there own growing concept that changed with time and other influences

it even evolved through christianity

That's basically my point. Anyone who sits and reads through the Bible will notice that "God" changes his mind an awful lot. Nothing is coherent or consistent throughout the whole book. And we see the biggest changes, of course, from the OT to NT. But even in each respective testament, there are many changes that take place, over time. Not to mention a study of religious cultures around the time that these changes takes place, shows that the Judeo-Christian religion is basically just absorbing various ideas from various other religious cultures. The snake motif was a popular one all throughout the ancient world, and figured prominently, in different ways, in various religions. So whoever authored the book of Genesis had to fit it in there somewhere. Over time, this being became equated with Satan, but not until after the advent of Christianity.