waitasec
Veteran Member
i think it did.
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How did Satan get to the garden of Eden?
- Thread starter jubilee131
- Start date
i think it did.
outhouse
Atheistically
Bingo
It has always existed.
There was never a point on this planet since the beginning life, that there was not death.
Do some people really think that humans were once immortal ?
waitasec
Veteran Member
Bingo
It has always existed.
There was never a point on this planet since the beginning life, that there was not death.
Do some people really think that humans were once immortal ?
even if you take the account of the fall literally...
what was the purpose of the tree of eternal life? to make mortal man immortal so long as they ate from it....
:curtsy:
idea
Question Everything
I define the word "create" differently than most Christians - I think a better word is "transform" - (I create artwork, vs. I transform natural rock into a sculpture)
“I form the light and transform darkness: I make peace, and transform evil: I the lord do all these things”　 Isaiah 45:7
God transforms darkness into light - He transforms evil into good. He is the great refiner - has always been good, and He does exist! as does Satan... I know, I have felt the reality of their presence within my life.
God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 1 John 1:5
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idea
Question Everything
Beyond the veil, we will partake of the tree of life - it's full purpose has not yet been fulfilled.
waitasec
Veteran Member
sincerly
Well-Known Member
Nope! That wasn't just each other, but all mankind. The killing of Able by Cain was known by the Israelites. Gen.4:8-11
Stealing was also, known. Gen.30:33; 31:32, 39.
Yes, that "purpose was LOVE"---of/for GOD and mankind.
The principle is still valid and will presist unti the end----even though by man's choice---man's inhumanity to man is basically Darwin's "survival of the fittest".
sincerly said:
"CHOICE" isn't the "standard", It is an option, in this case to OBEY THE STANDARD or to reject it. Since the "Standard" is known or one has closed their understanding to it---- the "to each his own" is a witness of one's conclusions.
sincerly said:
Your ""to each his own" above defined/answered it.
waitasec said:
NO, as you posted/listed, there are a great many Christian "denominations", but their foundations are "half truths"/"false light" just as has been the case with "False prophets and false teachers" in the O.T. and prophesied in the N.T.
2Thess.2:3-4 attest to the prophetic fact, "Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."
waitasec
Veteran Member
what makes you think irenaeus wasn't a false teacher?
sincerly
Well-Known Member
I never said he was or wasn't, Tell us why you think he was. (Since this thread/topic is already off track.) Arias was---so was Marcion.
Vasiel
The Seeker
In Ancient Egyptian Mythology/Belief... the Serpent was seen as a symbol of wisdom. Not only the Egyptians saw the snake in this light, but also the Celts, the Hindus see it as representing the Kundalini (pure desire), in Buddhism it is seen often as a protective symbol, in Hellenic (Greek) mythology it was a symbol of healing and restoration.
Serpents symbolised the Aztec God Quetzalcoatl, in the Australian Dreamtime the Rainbow Serpent was seen as a very important figure. So whilst the Abrahamic faiths have reduced the snakes status... many, many other cultures revered it.
A symbol of potential, or wisdom gained often through trial.
waitasec
Veteran Member
The purpose of "Against Heresies" was to refute the teachings of various Gnostic groups; apparently, several Greek merchants had begun an oratorial campaign in Irenaeus' bishopric, teaching that the material world was the accidental creation of an evil god, from which we are to escape by the pursuit of gnosis. Irenaeus argued that the true gnosis is in fact knowledge of Christ, which redeems rather than escapes from bodily existence. Until the discovery of the Library of Nag Hammadi in 1945, Against Heresies was the best-surviving description of Gnosticism. According to some biblical scholars, the findings at Nag Hammadi have shown Irenaeus' description of Gnosticism to be largely inaccurate and polemic in nature.[11][12] Though correct in some details about the belief systems of various groups, Irenaeus' main purpose was to warn Christians against Gnosticism, rather than accurately describe those beliefs. He described Gnostic groups as sexual libertines, for example, when some of their own writings advocated chastity more strongly than did orthodox texts.[13][14] However, at least one scholar, Rodney Stark, claims that it is the same Nag Hammadi library that proves Ireneaus right.[15]
It seemed that Irenaeus's critique against the gnostics were exaggerated, which led to his scholarly dismissal for a long time. For example, he wrote: "They declare that Judas the traitor was thoroughly acquainted with these things, and that he alone, knowing the truth as no other did, accomplished the mystery of betrayal; by him all things were thus thrown into confusion. They produce a fictitious history of this kind, which they style the Gospel of Judas."[16] These claims turned out to be truly mentioned in the Gospel of Judas where Jesus asked Judas to betray him.
Irenaeus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
so i guess it's better to be dishonest in order to tell the truth
irenaeus is one of the earliest church fathers and he explains why he picked the 4 gospels...as irenaeus was a student of polycarp who happened to be a disciple of john the evangelist...
irenaeus also thought, as an early church father, that the antichrist would come at the end of the roman empire...oops
arias and marcion were denounced by the early church fathers...
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
Mmm .. interesting
The central point of Irenaeus' theology is the unity and the goodness of God, in opposition to the Gnostics' division of God into a number of divine "Aeons", and their distinction between the utterly transcendent "High God" and the inferior "Demiurge" who created the world.
He was a Bishop in Lyons (France) in the 2nd century AD .. so before Constantine's universal 'Roman creed' was established in the 4th century AD
The central point of Irenaeus' theology is the unity and the goodness of God, in opposition to the Gnostics' division of God into a number of divine "Aeons", and their distinction between the utterly transcendent "High God" and the inferior "Demiurge" who created the world.
He was a Bishop in Lyons (France) in the 2nd century AD .. so before Constantine's universal 'Roman creed' was established in the 4th century AD
michaelsherlock
Member
I like your spin, however we must acknowledge that this is what you have done, Spin!
Let us look at the verse in the original Hebrew and see if we can translate the Hebrew word; 'VBVURA' (ובורא ), or 'Bara.'
The original Hebrew of Isaiah 45:7 transliterated reads:
YVTShUr 'aVUr VBVUr'a ChShK 'yShH ShLVM VBVUr'a Ur'y 'aNY YHVH 'yShH KL-'aLH.
One can clearly see that the word create; Bara, is used and not 'transform' (שִׁנוּי צוּרָה ) transliterated; 'shinuy,' as you have rendered it, thus, Yahweh created evil according to the Scriptures!
Please keep in mind that 'evil' in Scripture is Not always synonymous with wrongdoing.
Sometimes in Scripture 'evil' is used in the sense of calamity.
God used calamity against the wicked to protect the righteous.
sincerly
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by sincerly
I never said he was or wasn't, Tell us why you think he was. (Since this thread/topic is already off track.) Arias was---so was Marcion.
Waitasec, I ellipised the areas above to shorten the article to what I want to address.
A false "anything" gets its life/seemingly truth from the truth which is included in it. As the Article indicates, Irenaeus wrote some truth and some false was mixed in it. That doesn't make any of it truth.
Those early church fathers were prophesied to "fall away" from teaching the truth as was shown in 2Thess.2:3-4. Also, look at Acts 20:28-31, "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. "
Did it happen?? Yes, notice Jesus in Rev.2:4, "Nevertheless I have [somewhat] against thee, because thou hast left thy first love."
Where did those "heresies" originate? not from outside of the Believers/Church, but from their own erroneous beliefs/biases/lusts.
Like today, an erroneous belief believed by others forms another denomination. Jesus Christ is not "here" nor "there" in them---even though they call themselves by HIS Name.
GOD'S Truth remains the same and endures forever.
Nope! Is doesn't work that way. Prov.14:12, "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof [are] the ways of death.
I never said he was or wasn't, Tell us why you think he was. (Since this thread/topic is already off track.) Arias was---so was Marcion.
Waitasec, I ellipised the areas above to shorten the article to what I want to address.
A false "anything" gets its life/seemingly truth from the truth which is included in it. As the Article indicates, Irenaeus wrote some truth and some false was mixed in it. That doesn't make any of it truth.
Those early church fathers were prophesied to "fall away" from teaching the truth as was shown in 2Thess.2:3-4. Also, look at Acts 20:28-31, "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. "
Did it happen?? Yes, notice Jesus in Rev.2:4, "Nevertheless I have [somewhat] against thee, because thou hast left thy first love."
Where did those "heresies" originate? not from outside of the Believers/Church, but from their own erroneous beliefs/biases/lusts.
Like today, an erroneous belief believed by others forms another denomination. Jesus Christ is not "here" nor "there" in them---even though they call themselves by HIS Name.
GOD'S Truth remains the same and endures forever.
so i guess it's better to be dishonest in order to tell the truth
Nope! Is doesn't work that way. Prov.14:12, "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof [are] the ways of death.
waitasec
Veteran Member
Originally Posted by sincerly
I never said he was or wasn't, Tell us why you think he was. (Since this thread/topic is already off track.) Arias was---so was Marcion.
Waitasec, I ellipised the areas above to shorten the article to what I want to address.
A false "anything" gets its life/seemingly truth from the truth which is included in it. As the Article indicates, Irenaeus wrote some truth and some false was mixed in it. That doesn't make any of it truth.
Those early church fathers were prophesied to "fall away" from teaching the truth as was shown in 2Thess.2:3-4. Also, look at Acts 20:28-31, "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. "
Did it happen?? Yes, notice Jesus in Rev.2:4, "Nevertheless I have [somewhat] against thee, because thou hast left thy first love."
Where did those "heresies" originate? not from outside of the Believers/Church, but from their own erroneous beliefs/biases/lusts.
Like today, an erroneous belief believed by others forms another denomination. Jesus Christ is not "here" nor "there" in them---even though they call themselves by HIS Name.
GOD'S Truth remains the same and endures forever.
Nope! Is doesn't work that way. Prov.14:12, "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof [are] the ways of death.
but of course your belief, ultimately shaped by these early church fathers no less, is the correct one.
excellent.
sincerly
Well-Known Member
"
Again, NOPE!!, your assumptions are showing. "These early church fathers" are the ones who "fell away from the true understanding of the scriptures". As has been shown. They are the ones who persecuted and killed the true believers of GOD and called them Heretics.(because they refused to propagate "man-made traditions and decrees man by men" as they saw them false by studying the scriptures.)
As Paul states in Rom.11:1-5 a "Remnant" of GOD'S people remained faithful to HIS teachings. "Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace." It is those who continued to truthfully/faithfully teach and spread the "Everlasting Gospel". Rev.12:17 continues to show the "Remnant" to be present to the last of earth's history. "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ".
sincerly
Well-Known Member
Yes, I found that the Hebrew word for Evil in that Isa.45:7 passage is found in the KJV to be translated into English with these words.
Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count Total: 663
AV evil 442, wickedness 59, wicked 25, mischief 21, hurt 20, bad 13, trouble 10, sore 9, affliction 6, ill 5, adversity 4, favoured 3, harm 3, naught 3, noisome 2, grievous 2, sad 2, misc 34
From the beginning GOD said, "Eat not"---but should you eat you "will surely die".
However, before Creation---a way of escape had been made for that penalty.
Gal.6:7-8, "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting."
Therefore, by man's actions/choices, GOD "REWARDS" THE INDIVIDUAL. That ultimate "reward" for disobedience is that which has been explained from the beginnng the "evil"/ death.
As Ezek.18:32 states, "For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn [yourselves], and live ye".
Thanks 'sincerely' for your reply.
Also, as Ezekiel 33v11 states that God has No pleasure in the death of the wicked;
but that the wicked turn from his way and live.......
That is also why [2nd Peter 3v9] could mention God is Not willing any should perish [be destroyed] but that all should repent.
Also, as Ezekiel 33v11 states that God has No pleasure in the death of the wicked;
but that the wicked turn from his way and live.......
That is also why [2nd Peter 3v9] could mention God is Not willing any should perish [be destroyed] but that all should repent.
sincerly
Well-Known Member
Agreed, and thank you, and that was determined as 1Pet.1-18-20 declares, "Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, [as] silver and gold, from your vain conversation [received] by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, "