How did Satan get to the garden of Eden?

[Thief]

Assuming God is all-loving, one would think jealousy wouldn't override love so easily.

Never been jealous have you?
Can't see a parting of the ways brought on by it?

If the 'other' person takes away their attention....
The jealousy that follows could be...forever.

Assuming God is all loving?
And the angels don't have swords?

 

[Gjallarhorn]

Never been jealous have you?
Can't see a parting of the ways brought on by it?

If the 'other' person takes away their attention....
The jealousy that follows could be...forever.

Assuming God is all loving?
And the angels don't have swords?

Well, as long as we're not considering Him all-loving...

Knowing God is as petty as a human who gets huffy when his ant farm turns against him is rather comical.

 

[michaelsherlock]

Well, as long as we're not considering Him all-loving...

Knowing God is as petty as a human who gets huffy when his ant farm turns against him is rather comical.

]

Yet, somehow not as comical as talking snakes and donkeys, in my opinion!

 

[muhammad_isa]

Jealousy implies an emotional bond.
If God cares about you...that makes Him petty?

Of course not .. it's all about language, and our spiritual understanding

 

[muhammad_isa]

Assuming God is all loving?

Of course Almighty God is 'All-Loving' .. He is also the 'Most Just' ..

Any harm that befalls us after our earthly death is only that which our 'hands' have sent before us
ie. our bad deeds outweighing our good deeds

If it wasn't for God's Mercy & Love, not one of us would enter paradise/heaven

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Of course Almighty God is 'All-Loving' .. He is also the 'Most Just' ..
Any harm that befalls us after our earthly death is only that which our 'hands' have sent before us
ie. our bad deeds outweighing our good deeds
If it wasn't for God's Mercy & Love, not one of us would enter paradise/heaven

By earthly death do you mean Not a spiritual death?
When I read 'earthly death' the contrast that came to mind was 'heavenly death'. Since No one dies that goes to heaven, then there can be No heavenly death.

Except for those committing the unforgivable sin [ Mark 3v29] who are eternally or forever destroyed [Psalm 92v7], the rest of the dead will be resurrected to either going to heaven [Rev 20v6;14v4; 5vs9,10],
or resurrected on a paradisaic earth during Jesus 1000-year reign over earth when they will be judged on what they do 'after' they are resurrected.

Romans [6v7,23] mentions that the dead are freed or acquitted from sins.
Acquitted because 'death' is the price tag that sin pays.
'Death' stamps the price of sin as 'Paid In Full'. This does not mean innocent,
but as a Judge can pardon a person so the crime [sin] charges no longer stick.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..or resurrected on a paradisaic earth during Jesus 1000-year reign over earth when they will be judged on what they do 'after' they are resurrected.

Oh yes? Did Jesus (peace be with him) say that?
I think not. Planet earth is planet earth .. and paradise/heaven is paradise/heaven

Everyone must physically die .. the resurrection comes later
Jesus said that we will all be ressurrected and there is a heaven and hell.
It's very clear, and the Qur'an confirms it.

 

[Thief]

Of course Almighty God is 'All-Loving' .. He is also the 'Most Just' ..

Any harm that befalls us after our earthly death is only that which our 'hands' have sent before us
ie. our bad deeds outweighing our good deeds

If it wasn't for God's Mercy & Love, not one of us would enter paradise/heaven

You jumped a line.

If God is all loving...all go to heaven....no exceptions.

There's a line drawn.....God is jealous.

 

[Thief]

Oh yes? Did Jesus (peace be with him) say that?
I think not. Planet earth is planet earth .. and paradise/heaven is paradise/heaven

Everyone must physically die .. the resurrection comes later
Jesus said that we will all be ressurrected and there is a heaven and hell.
It's very clear, and the Qur'an confirms it.

I don't believe that....and scriptures confirm nothing.
Going to heaven?
Well I AM going...hope so anyway.

If not, I could end up stuck in this body...in a box...in a grave.
Eternal darkness is physically real.
No form of light follows anyone into the grave.

If I succeed in spiritual form, then I will have to deal with anyone before me.
They will have the advantage....
the language, the territory, and the scheme of things.

The resurrection is of spirit.
Flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
God is spirit. The Sons of God are spirit.
The kingdom is not of this world.

The transformation happens in that hour of your last breath.

 

[muhammad_isa]

You jumped a line.

If God is all loving...all go to heaven....no exceptions.

Is that right? Already there are you?
If not, why not, if God is All-Loving?

No .. having free-will means that we can 'not realise' God's love..
ie. we end up in hell, despite God's Love for His creation

 

[muhammad_isa]

The resurrection is of spirit.
Flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
God is spirit.

Where did I imply otherwise?

 

[Thief]

Is that right? Already there are you?
If not, why not, if God is All-Loving?

No .. having free-will means that we can 'not realise' God's love..
ie. we end up in hell, despite God's Love for His creation

So we agree?
God has freewill...including jealousy....
and we could end up in hell for having offended His sensitivities?

 

[muhammad_isa]

So we agree?
God has freewill...including jealousy....
and we could end up in hell for having offended His sensitivities?

You're just being perverse, aren't you?

 

[sincerly]

And your thinking the serpent as an animal possessed by the devil?

Rev.12:7-9,"possessed?" or "allowed to be used".

The book does not say God created the serpent.
It says the serpent was more subtle then any animal He had made.

All things were created by GOD. The serpent just didn't materialize out of nothing. And being "subtle" doesn't exclude it from the "creation." And snakes of a multitude of discriptions are present upon this earth.

Nor does the bible relate partaking of the fruit by the serpent.

The Bible does relate that Eve (vs.6), "And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."

It does speak of God's curse and the serpent life afterward.
Did you notice the 'error'?...the serpent would eat dust all the days of it's life?

Of course serpents don't actually do so.
Shall we now sort through the 'errors'?

Or step back from the metaphor for the meaning?[/quote]

In the earth made new (Isa.65:25), "The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust [shall be] the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.
All things vegetable and Animal were made from the "dust" of the earth and shall return to "dust" upon death. That's your metaphor.

It is no metaphor that The Creator GOD did Creat all things. The "error" is to believe otherwise.

 

[Thief]

You're just being perverse, aren't you?

Are you now dismissing the jealously of God?
And you think any character fault on my part will make it go away?

 

[Thief]

Rev.12:7-9,"possessed?" or "allowed to be used".



All things were created by GOD. The serpent just didn't materialize out of nothing. And being "subtle" doesn't exclude it from the "creation." And snakes of a multitude of discriptions are present upon this earth.



The Bible does relate that Eve (vs.6), "And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."


Or step back from the metaphor for the meaning?

In the earth made new (Isa.65:25), "The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust [shall be] the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.
All things vegetable and Animal were made from the "dust" of the earth and shall return to "dust" upon death. That's your metaphor.

It is no metaphor that The Creator GOD did Creat all things. The "error" is to believe otherwise.[/quote]


for Sincerely...(I highlighted the quote mark...to keep you words for you)

I see nothing in your rebuttal to dismiss my previous post.

If you insist.
And God did not create all things.
That situation in the Garden was corrupted, (by the serpent).
If you insist...then God is responsible for the presence of the serpent....
and the consequence...the fall of Man.

As for the dust....that is a factual notion.
All are dust.

 

[outhouse]

lets get this thread back on track

its been derailed far to long.



satan or lucifer is not present in the tree, its a snake nothing more.


there is very little of satan or lucifer in the whole OT to begin with to state that the snake had any connection


YOU if you want to prove a connection need to bring up why the author would use or want satan there in this legend, no one has made decent case yet. in early ancient hebrew religion, satan didnt have the definition he does now.

if you cannot explain how the different early OT authors evolved the concept of satan, you dont have a dog in this fight
Snakes were evil and deadly in real life to these people, get biten and your dead, they looked at snakes as evil deadly creatures and that is the only context used in this myth.

 

[Thief]

lets get this thread back on track

its been derailed far to long.



satan or lucifer is not present in the tree, its a snake nothing more.


there is very little of satan or lucifer in the whole OT to begin with to state that the snake had any connection


YOU if you want to prove a connection need to bring up why the author would use or want satan there in this legend, no one has made decent case yet. in early ancient hebrew religion, satan didnt have the definition he does now.

if you cannot explain how the different early OT authors evolved the concept of satan, you dont have a dog in this fight
Snakes were evil and deadly in real life to these people, get biten and your dead, they looked at snakes as evil deadly creatures and that is the only context used in this myth.

Nay...the serpent....spoke.

So did you want to draw the line where?
A spiritual being possessing an animal form?
Or God's handiwork...deceiving Adam and Eve?
Or maybe Moses would not understand so terms of myth were used when explaining God's first encounter with Man?

 

[outhouse]

Nay...the serpent....spoke.

So did you want to draw the line where?
A spiritual being possessing an animal form?
Or God's handiwork...deceiving Adam and Eve?
Or maybe Moses would not understand so terms of myth were used when explaining God's first encounter with Man?

Well, like it or not. this hebrew legend came into existance about 197,000 years after homo sapiens had been on the planet.

so why dont we get that out of the way and start over, if you want to have a serious discussion on the subject.

this is about claiming something that hebrews didnt believe in at that time, that they never wrote in or intended in context, and then now, trying to use imagination to connect dots that are simply not there.

 

[Thief]

Well, like it or not. this hebrew legend came into existance about 197,000 years after homo sapiens had been on the planet.

so why dont we get that out of the way and start over, if you want to have a serious discussion on the subject.

this is about claiming something that hebrews didnt believe in at that time, that they never wrote in or intended in context, and then now, trying to use imagination to connect dots that are simply not there.

I don't care who wrote it.
Don't care who believes it.
And there's no point debating text that most people don't know.

Can't deal with the spiritual implications?

If God can have a conversation with people, then so can other spirits.
The conversation in the garden was pivotal.

From a non-believers viewpoint it's all myth.
Don't like mythology?
Why then hang around debates about God?

This isn't about history.
It's about the serpent in the garden.