How did Satan get to the garden of Eden?

[Oryonder]

I think you are missing the entire concept message here.

I simply am attempting to say, one must come to feel and know what could have been moving about within the heart of God, that prompted the out burst of creation under Himself; after one comes to understand why God did what He did, one can better understand why things are as they are today, such as the existence of the knowledge of evil and Good.

...:bow:

I too have wondered what was in the mind of God.

My guess is that it would be quite boring to hang out by yourself all infinity long .. so why not create some other beings for entertainment !

Like any good story there must be an antagonist, a protagonist and everything else in-between.

if Satan was in the Garden of Eden then I believe God actually intended him to be there. Or do you believe God is not in command of all existing things...?

Neither you nor I, nor anyone else for that matter has any idea what God commands.

Of course if God is running the show then all the characters in the story are part of Gods plan.

Is God so all-unknowing about all created things He sort of let old Satan just slip around His all-knowing knowledge...

Exactly. Same with the actions of Adam and Eve .. taking from the tree of knowledge.

Obviously God knew they would do this. The question then is why did God punish beings for doing something that they were created to do/doing what God wanted them to do ?

For this reason I do not believe the story because that would make God irrational illogical.

Talk about setting someone up for failure on a deified scale !

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Oryonder-

Why do you believe God created Adam and Eve to sin?

Didn't God warn in advance not to eat from his tree ?
Warn that eating [disobedience] meant death.
How is that obvious they would disobey ?
No one forced anyone to disobey God.
We are all free moral agents with the ability to use our free will to choose.

Of all the trees on earth God had only one tree so it was not a hardship not to eat off of one tree.
If you have a generous neighbor that had many fruit trees and he told you come over anything and help yourself but just avoid one tree, would you consider your generous neighbor as unreasonable, or dooming you to disobey him ?

 

[outhouse]

O-ha....perhaps a "NEWBIE" to you....but, after some 47 long years of Biblical studie and very close personal invetegative reasearch into the "WORD," while also working in the spiritual service of God, I'm not really considered a "NEWBIE," not to God anyway; and, frankly speaking, that is what's really the most important thing to me...!

What you think about a NEWBIE is merely one personal opinion, and every body has one of those things...?

So then, Let me see....O-Yes...Here we go....would you happen to have something "nice" to say to a so-called, "NEWBIE".....I was just wondering about that....?

Somthing like, perhaps........Hello there NEW PERSON...? Or, Hi there "New Member"...? Or, perhaps even, "Glad you took time to post some ideas and opinions for perhaps a person who may just need a few other ideas, concerning the main theme of the thread listed above...?

HELLO...are you still there...?

Its all good bud, im 49.

this "new person" stigma is because people come in here thinking their educated and many of us are well studied to the point of complete a understanding as one can have on certain subjects. We often see new people come in missing common information and then jumping in head first.

despite heated arguements were all buds


Now back to this concept of the OP

you do understand this Adam Eve legend is a compilation of legends thats has been redacted over the centuries and has heavy influence from the Mesopotamian culture in which their first man was Adamu, these same people migrated and became Isralites when many of the early iron age civilizations collapsed and the governements crumbled. This new culture had passed these legends down orally for hundreds of years before different collections were gathered and merged. during this early period they really had no concept of satan as you hold now. the devil didnt exist then and the culture still was polytheistic as this legend evolved into what you read today.

satan was not written originally nor edited in later, satan wasnt in the tree, and the snake/serpent tree have their own symbolism and that doesnt have anything to do with satan what so ever.


if ancient Israelites wanted satan in a tree, they would tell you so and write him in.

 

[outhouse]

Oryonder-

Why do you believe God created Adam and Eve to sin?

Didn't God warn in advance not to eat from his tree ?
Warn that eating [disobedience] meant death.
How is that obvious they would disobey ?
No one forced anyone to disobey God.
We are all free moral agents with the ability to use our free will to choose.

Of all the trees on earth God had only one tree so it was not a hardship not to eat off of one tree.
If you have a generous neighbor that had many fruit trees and he told you come over anything and help yourself but just avoid one tree, would you consider your generous neighbor as unreasonable, or dooming you to disobey him ?

so um ah, what happened to this magical tree?, where is it today? surely a tree from god thats magic must be easy to find

 

[Badran]

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[TheCup]

I too have wondered what was in the mind of God.

My guess is that it would be quite boring to hang out by yourself all infinity long .. so why not create some other beings for entertainment !

Like any good story there must be an antagonist, a protagonist and everything else in-between.



Neither you nor I, nor anyone else for that matter has any idea what God commands.

Of course if God is running the show then all the characters in the story are part of Gods plan.




Exactly. Same with the actions of Adam and Eve .. taking from the tree of knowledge.

Obviously God knew they would do this. The question then is why did God punish beings for doing something that they were created to do/doing what God wanted them to do ?

For this reason I do not believe the story because that would make God irrational illogical.

Talk about setting someone up for failure on a deified scale !

Hello Oryonder:
I would have to be the first one to admit, no human being can actually know the mind of God, that saying is absolutely a global understanding. However, when I have spoken in terms of coming to understand and know we can understand what God may have been thinking before anything was ever created under Himself, most people do not here the actual words I've said.

Most all people tend to think I had said, we have to know the mind of God; that is not possible with human life...! However, we can somewhat know what God may have had on His momentary mindset just before His first official act of creation under Himself.

It is actually about the simplest thing a person can do. All we have to do is take into account all of the things God has created within our human awareness today, and we can see that God was thinking about creating life under Him.

There now, honestly, that wasn't all that difficult, was it...? And, no one here (on this end) had to say, or I attempted to imply I "know the mind of God;"

In fact, there is absolutely ample physical evidence today proving to anyone doubting the idea here what God was momentarily thinking, mostly due to all of the existing things moving all around us mortals today, within and throughout all of physical creation.

That understanding indeed clearly shows absolute indisputable evidence within itself God had some kind of thought and/or some sort of creative "Ulterior Motive" unfolding and going on deep within His Godly mindset. This long overlooked Ulterior Motive is exactly what strongly compelled our God to create any and all things under Him.

Now, here comes the big one, and the big mystery is what was that Ulterior Motive constructed of, what prompted God to even create things under Him.

You had made a statement: such as: “My guess is that it would be quite boring to hang out by yourself all infinity long …so, why not create some other beings, for entertainment!”

That is very close to being absolutely a factual and as best understanding as anyone I know of has come to the truth, Oryonder…! However, with only one exception here; I actually found God is not really seeking some personalized (self created) form of existing aspect, relative to mere “entertainment,” not for Himself.

On the other hand, throughout all of my years of studies and investigative research, throughout the long years, I’ve finally come to see and also deeply believe our own Holy Bible clearly shows us a very vast collective of exactly why The Most High God created any and all things under Himself, and the Bible does so from one end of the Bible to the other.

The facts have been made quite absolutely clear to us at this time that our God is not seeking personal entertainment rather He is seeking a much more personal kind of a personal love, and extreme loyal favoritism from a self willing acknowledgement; thus, this love and acknowledgment is often coming only from mankind (or the human race); since it is mankind only who has rightfully achieved the strange freedom of a self-will, due to Satan being in the Garden of Eden, at the right time……think about that one for a short moment…?

Yes, indeed, I do believe as you do, infinity must be an absolute unfathomed place to have to exist when one is absolutely all alone as God must have been at one time; in fact how would any of us feel, if we had to exist for absolute endless times, and there were no one around to acknowledge us at all, or see and enjoy our special creative abilities to act and perform in our own creative ways throughout an endless lifetime; if we lived like God had once lived, in fact who would be around or there with us to call us Brother, sister, Daddy, or even Mother. What a sad state of being that must be, to be absolutely all alone…?

Could our God have been a true Godly being, if there were absolutely no one or nothing around for Him to be a God over….or, to say to Him: “I see and acknowledge you, I see you are GOD….?


Think about this understandings for a short while…?

GODS BLESSINGS AND KIND REGARDS FROM:

THE CUP

 

[waitasec]

Hello Oryonder:
I would have to be the first one to admit, no human being can actually know the mind of God, that saying is absolutely a global understanding. However, when I have spoken in terms of coming to understand and know we can understand what God may have been thinking before anything was ever created under Himself, most people do not here the actual words I've said.

Most all people tend to think I had said, we have to know the mind of God; that is not possible with human life...! However, we can somewhat know what God may have had on His momentary mindset just before His first official act of creation under Himself.

It is actually about the simplest thing a person can do. All we have to do is take into account all of the things God has created within our human awareness today, and we can see that God was thinking about creating life under Him.

There now, honestly, that wasn't all that difficult, was it...? And, no one here (on this end) had to say, or I attempted to imply I "know the mind of God;"

yes you did imply that by saying:

we can somewhat know what God may have had on His momentary mindset

combined with the over zealous attempts at proving a subjective POV

 

[Thief]

I too have wondered what was in the mind of God.

My guess is that it would be quite boring to hang out by yourself all infinity long .. so why not create some other beings for entertainment !

Like any good story there must be an antagonist, a protagonist and everything else in-between.



Neither you nor I, nor anyone else for that matter has any idea what God commands.

Of course if God is running the show then all the characters in the story are part of Gods plan.

Exactly. Same with the actions of Adam and Eve .. taking from the tree of knowledge.

Obviously God knew they would do this. The question then is why did God punish beings for doing something that they were created to do/doing what God wanted them to do ?

For this reason I do not believe the story because that would make God irrational illogical.

Talk about setting someone up for failure on a deified scale !

Yeah...but He probably wasn't sure.....
The alterations He performed upon Man while in the garden, were extensive.
The alterations were aimed at changing the body the mind and heart...
the course of Man.

Partaking of knowledge....even as a warning of death be at hand...
was the only way to be sure the alterations had taken hold.

Man is now such a creature that he seeks to know....
even as death is eminent.

 

[Oryonder]

Oryonder-

Why do you believe God created Adam and Eve to sin?

Didn't God warn in advance not to eat from his tree ?
Warn that eating [disobedience] meant death.
How is that obvious they would disobey ?
No one forced anyone to disobey God.
We are all free moral agents with the ability to use our free will to choose.

God must have known in advance that his creation would "sin"/ go against his wishes/disobey even prior to creation.

When you make a being that is succeptible to temptation .. and then put them in the same room/garden with the greatest of temptors. It is pretty hard to turn around after the fact and say "gosh ..I did not know that would happen".

If indeed God did not know .. then the Christian conception of God completely changes. No longer is God omnipotent.

Of all the trees on earth God had only one tree so it was not a hardship not to eat off of one tree.
If you have a generous neighbor that had many fruit trees and he told you come over anything and help yourself but just avoid one tree, would you consider your generous neighbor as unreasonable, or dooming you to disobey him

This has nothing to do with the point. The point here is that God knew, even prior to creation, that his creations would eat from the tree because this is what he created them to do.

 

[Oryonder]

Hello Oryonder:
I would have to be the first one to admit, no human being can actually know the mind of God, that saying is absolutely a global understanding. However, when I have spoken in terms of coming to understand and know we can understand what God may have been thinking before anything was ever created under Himself, most people do not here the actual words I've said.

Most all people tend to think I had said, we have to know the mind of God; that is not possible with human life...! However, we can somewhat know what God may have had on His momentary mindset just before His first official act of creation under Himself.

It is actually about the simplest thing a person can do. All we have to do is take into account all of the things God has created within our human awareness today, and we can see that God was thinking about creating life under Him.

There now, honestly, that wasn't all that difficult, was it...? And, no one here (on this end) had to say, or I attempted to imply I "know the mind of God;"

In fact, there is absolutely ample physical evidence today proving to anyone doubting the idea here what God was momentarily thinking, mostly due to all of the existing things moving all around us mortals today, within and throughout all of physical creation.

That understanding indeed clearly shows absolute indisputable evidence within itself God had some kind of thought and/or some sort of creative "Ulterior Motive" unfolding and going on deep within His Godly mindset. This long overlooked Ulterior Motive is exactly what strongly compelled our God to create any and all things under Him.

Now, here comes the big one, and the big mystery is what was that Ulterior Motive constructed of, what prompted God to even create things under Him.

You had made a statement: such as: “My guess is that it would be quite boring to hang out by yourself all infinity long …so, why not create some other beings, for entertainment!”

That is very close to being absolutely a factual and as best understanding as anyone I know of has come to the truth, Oryonder…! However, with only one exception here; I actually found God is not really seeking some personalized (self created) form of existing aspect, relative to mere “entertainment,” not for Himself.

On the other hand, throughout all of my years of studies and investigative research, throughout the long years, I’ve finally come to see and also deeply believe our own Holy Bible clearly shows us a very vast collective of exactly why The Most High God created any and all things under Himself, and the Bible does so from one end of the Bible to the other.

The facts have been made quite absolutely clear to us at this time that our God is not seeking personal entertainment rather He is seeking a much more personal kind of a personal love, and extreme loyal favoritism from a self willing acknowledgement; thus, this love and acknowledgment is often coming only from mankind (or the human race); since it is mankind only who has rightfully achieved the strange freedom of a self-will, due to Satan being in the Garden of Eden, at the right time……think about that one for a short moment…?

Yes, indeed, I do believe as you do, infinity must be an absolute unfathomed place to have to exist when one is absolutely all alone as God must have been at one time; in fact how would any of us feel, if we had to exist for absolute endless times, and there were no one around to acknowledge us at all, or see and enjoy our special creative abilities to act and perform in our own creative ways throughout an endless lifetime; if we lived like God had once lived, in fact who would be around or there with us to call us Brother, sister, Daddy, or even Mother. What a sad state of being that must be, to be absolutely all alone…?

Could our God have been a true Godly being, if there were absolutely no one or nothing around for Him to be a God over….or, to say to Him: “I see and acknowledge you, I see you are GOD….?


Think about this understandings for a short while…?

GODS BLESSINGS AND KIND REGARDS FROM:

THE CUP

I think that perhaps the point of existence is to come to understand love and compassion for others. This is certainly what Jesus was trying to get across IMO.

(Do unto others, do not judge .. and so on the second rule was that humans should not claim to speak for God)

These seem like simple rules but they are much deeper than it seems on the surface and give a method for humans to coexist in the best way possible.

Unfortunatly these two simple rules are the ones most often broken.

Every time I turn around some one is claiming .. "do this or dont do that because God says so" and on this basis trying to get the state to force their beliefs on others.

There is a difference between having a belief, and forcing that belief on others. (this is encompased in "do unto others" and other of Jesus teachings) "take the log out of your own eye" .. the adulterous woman "let ye without sin cast the first stone" .. and so on.

Abortion, Pornography, Drinking, Covering your face (women), Driving a Car (women), Prostitution are a few examples of religious folks claiming to know what God's will and on this basis getting the state to force these beliefs on others.

Historically, this was the basis for torture, persecution, and killing of millions of people over the years "in the name of God".

What I get, from looking around in the universe that I can see is that the above two principles, if followed and combined with some semblance of love of humanity, would make the world a better place.

I noticed that you did not speak to the idea that humans were created intentionally to disobey God's will. What think ye of that ?

 

[Oryonder]

Yeah...but He probably wasn't sure.....

This is a key comment that completely changes the persepective of God as a singular all knowing/omnipotent being.

 

[TheCup]

yes you did imply that by saying:

combined with the over zealous attempts at proving a subjective POV

Look at this real good........"Deliberately altering the words of another member by intentionally changing the meaning when you use the quote feature is considered a form of bullying."

My question is simple, are you intentionally attempting to alter what I said here: “Most all people tend to think I had said, we have to know the mind of God; that is not possible with human life...! However, we can somewhat know what God may have had on His momentary mindset just before His first official act of creation under Himself.

It is actually about the simplest thing a person can do. All we have to do is take into account all of the things God has created within our human awareness today, and we can see that God was thinking about creating life under Him.”

What about “No human being can know the mind of God” you do not understand…?

I simply can’t fully understand why it appears as though you deliberately assumed I directly implied-----"I know the mind of God…?" Frankly speaking, as for myself, I simply can’t fully understand way any somewhat 40-some year old adult man, who has likely been through some kind of schooling, has strangely taken what I have clearly said (otherwise) and purposely changed around the meaning of my words just to suit your assumed eagerness to make yourself appear perhaps much more intelligent or perhaps much more correct, than most anyone else…?

Actually I am wondering here, so let me make this clear; are you somewhat brewing for some kind of an argument or perhaps even attempting to get me to strangely lower my own spiritual integrity in the eyes of others here on these postings boards, just to try to lessen the average or common level of someone else’s challenging logic, and to also make someone appear to be somewhat or sort-of a brainless or a misunderstanding person, while at the same time merely seeking to push about one’s own personal conflicting beliefs outward, and around upon others…?

Perhaps it would be best advisable to think about how you are replying to people you absolutely do not know anything about or do not know anything about what they may have come to learn and perhaps best understand something, perhaps concerning the primary “OP” here…?

Just the same, I have run across may people who just love to do the absolute worst kind of destructive thing they can upon others; these people are worldwide, and most are hoping to gain some kind of like minded backup, from such as believe as themselves;

I really do hope they all find what rewards they are seeking out of an extremely limited life time here on earth; because, I know the worst enemy (more so than themselves) called physical death, this is the next open doorway we all face, but afterwards judgment awaits all people right or wrong, there is no respecter of people with this coming specter…?

What then…?

 

[waitasec]

Look at this real good........"Deliberately altering the words of another member by intentionally changing the meaning when you use the quote feature is considered a form of bullying."

My question is simple, are you intentionally attempting to alter what I said here: “Most all people tend to think I had said, we have to know the mind of God; that is not possible with human life...! However, we can somewhat know what God may have had on His momentary mindset just before His first official act of creation under Himself.

It is actually about the simplest thing a person can do. All we have to do is take into account all of the things God has created within our human awareness today, and we can see that God was thinking about creating life under Him.”

What about “No human being can know the mind of God” you do not understand…?

this

However, we can somewhat know what God may have had on His momentary mindset just before His first official act of creation under Himself.[/FONT][/COLOR]

by what criteria would you determine to somewhat know anything about the mind of god?

 

[outhouse]

“Most all people tend to think I had said, we have to know the mind of God; that is not possible with human life...! However, we can somewhat know what God may have had on His momentary mindset just before His first official act of creation under Himself.

It is actually about the simplest thing a person can do. All we have to do is take into account all of the things God has created within our human awareness today, and we can see that God was thinking about creating life under Him.”

What about “No human being can know the mind of God” you do not understand…?

you cannot even prove a god exist to state he has a mind.


you also cannot attibute a single thing ever created by what many look at as simple mythology.


we know creation as written has all been proven false and born of mythology from previous religions in the levant

 

[outhouse]

Perhaps it would be best advisable to think about how you are replying to people you absolutely do not know anything about or do not know anything about what they may have come to learn and perhaps best understand something, perhaps concerning the primary “OP” here…?

are you not projecting your faith here?

theres over 33,000 versions of christianity and yet yours is somehow valid and has more credibility then others??

 

[outhouse]

this is the next open doorway we all face

is this not projection your own personal faith???

 

[TheCup]

this

by what criteria would you determine to somewhat know anything about the mind of god?

Below is the criteria I choose to live by:


I am doing my best to best understand exactly what you are attempting to imply here between you and myself. Frankly, I really do not care what you personally believe personally, I mean. One's personal beliefs are their own choice, and I cannot change anyone's personal beliefs.

That is absolutely not what I am all about here. I had rather be merely two people who think and believe differently but are working things out between the two in order to perhaps come to some kind of common logical understanding about each other.

What I was attempting to imply, concerning someone knowing what God thinks, is absolutely not trying to say I or anyone "can know the mind of God." I was actually attempting to say, according to all we can read about Godly ways, from the start to the end of the Bible, we who search the scriptures can also list and gather all we can find that is Biblically recorded concerning God.

We may then put what we’ve come to know and learn about Gods' personal Biblically recorded actions all together, and it is at that point we have a collective listing of many Godly actions. We can then begin to reason (with Gods' help, of course) upon "SOME" (NOT ALL) of Gods' mindset at certain points of creation.

The word “mind” all alone is actually a generalized word and it mostly means one determines upon all of something within the mind, which would also directly imply an entirety of mind or knowing the complete “mind” whereas, the term, “some” does not define as or imply a sum total of all things...?

As I have said, we can know “Some” of the basic creative intentions and basic creative thoughts of God, thoughts that were (no doubt) going on throughout Gods' “momentary” mindset (or at the very “moment of creation,” under Himself); and, of course, this would also be just before God actually started His very first official act of any and all of creation, things existing under Himself.

Of course, as we can plainly see for our own selves (because we are here as proof of that), and mostly by our own human existence here on planet earth, we can now come to somewhat know, God actually fully intended to create any and all of the things we are currently aware of today within physical creation such as, stars, galaxies, sun's, planets, and of course the planet earth, the trees, all of the animals, of course, lets not forget the creation of mankind.

People who can’t see these recorded somewhat “semi-hidden” techniques and/or mysterious methods are also people who have not exactly fully searched out the recorded mystery or true heart of God.

God certainly has searched out mankind’s hearts and God has even gone as far as to send His son to earth just to die for you and me, mostly in order to just help us limited thinking human being’s sort of come to see just how much He truly cares and truly loves you and me as well as most all of the people on planet earth.

Now, I ask you, would you inturn be willing to sort of "die" for Him...? I mean just push away that old you and take up a new you, allowing the old man (you) to die off and become resurrected as a whole new kind of mortal image, one reflecting the love and concern of God from within your heart…? It’s only right…I mean, He did it for you and me, so you and I can have eternal and abundant everlasting life, with Him in His new Kingdom…?

It's all up to one’s own personal feelings………?

 

[waitasec]

What I was attempting to imply, concerning someone knowing what God thinks, is absolutely not trying to say I or anyone "can know the mind of God." I was actually attempting to say, according to all we can read about Godly ways, from the start to the end of the Bible, we who search the scriptures can also list and gather all we can find that is Biblically recorded concerning God.

ok so your criteria is the bible.
by what criteria do you determine the bible is gods word?

feelings?

 

[outhouse]

what I want to know is why he doesnt address the OP

why cant he just state why his version of a satan charactor is valid when it wasnt written in that way.

instead were getting a sermon on how we cant understand whats written

 

[outhouse]

Now, I ask you, would you inturn be willing to sort of "die" for Him...?

No

sort of? isnt that wishy washy?

I mean just push away that old you and take up a new you, allowing the old man (you) to die off and become resurrected as a whole new kind of mortal image

NO

I dont need changing

one reflecting the love and concern of God from within your heart…?

I dont need a deity many claim as born in ancient mythology to have that in my heart now.

with Him in His new Kingdom…?

at this point in time that is considered mythology by many.

and what we know about the kingdom of a deity is completely contradictory depending on which unknown author your following