How did Satan get to the garden of Eden?

[Oryonder]

Be careful about just making the scripture fit your notions. Take evil. The word means useless because it is broken. It is associated with covenants. Put Adam and Eve in proper context. Just for fun, let's look at what scientists say. Humans had just survived the younger Dryas where they lived as hunter-gatherers in family groups. Then mankind invented agriculture. The Bible even claims that Adam was the first farmer. Now, suddenly, humankind starts living in farming communities, with unrelated people. Now, for the first time, they need covenants. Thus Evil, covenant breaking enters the world for the first time. Marriage has also become a covenant in this new order and people also break it. The same Hebrew word is used for breaking the marriage covenant, but it is usually translated wicked. Now wheter or not there were people before Adam doesn't matter. Farming demands many social changes over Adam's original life, including covenant breaking (Evil)

Interesting commentary on word meaning.

You need to read further back in the posts to learn the nature of what is being discussed.

There are certain premises that are being assumed .. so that the argument reads ..

If you believe X .. then how can Y be so.

If you believe in the traditional version Genesis, that God punished Adam and Eve for their sin, "the fall of man" and so forth.

Then you must believe that God was ignorant of his own creation.

If God created Adam and Eve .. then he would know the strengths and weaknesses of his own creation. According to the Bible Adam knew no evil.

This would make Adam a most trusting and innocent person. You put that person in a Garden with "the great deciever".

Obviously in such a situation God would know in advance the outcome of this situation .. was the initial point.

 

[outhouse]

and word meaning is useless

when we put this adam and eve legend into context as a allegorical literary creation

 

[Thief]

According to the Bible Adam did not know good from evil until he partook of the tree of knowledge.

Why do you insist on avoiding the question ?

Do you think that God knew that Adam and Eve had no knowledge of Evil ?

I did answer the question.
You just not willing to accept the response.

 

[Oryonder]

According to the Bible Adam did not know good from evil until he partook of the tree of knowledge.

Why do you insist on avoiding the question ?

Do you think that God knew that Adam and Eve had no knowledge of Evil ?

I did answer the question.
You just not willing to accept the response.

I do indeed accept your answer.
You did give a Nay awhile back but not since I clarified the question.

How can God have created humans, be "all knowing", and not know that his creations did not have knowledge of good and evil ?

If God did not know that his creations had or lacked this knowledge, how would God know that they had eaten from the Tree o knowledge ?

 

[Thief]

I do indeed accept your answer.
You did give a Nay awhile back but not since I clarified the question.

How can God have created humans, be "all knowing", and not know that his creations did not have knowledge of good and evil ?

If God did not know that his creations had or lacked this knowledge, how would God know that they had eaten from the Tree o knowledge ?

Answering questions with questions?...okay....

God knows your thoughts.
And still you think as you do?

Is that by His grace?....or yours?

Freewill includes your thoughts moving along...as you see fit.

The ability to know good from evil is not inherit.
Think about animals for awhile...take your time.

Man as a species...Day Six.
No law...no restrictions.....no garden...

Then Chapter Two.

 

[sincerly]

Be careful about just making the scripture fit your notions.

Hi greentwiga, welcome to the forums.

That even applies to all posters.

Take evil. The word means useless because it is broken. It is associated with covenants.

The Hebrew word for "evil" is "ra" and I didn't find "useless" as one of the English words into which it was translated.Total: 663
AV — evil 442, wickedness 59, wicked 25, mischief 21, hurt 20, bad 13, trouble 10, sore 9, affliction 6, ill 5, adversity 4, favoured 3, harm 3, naught 3, noisome 2, grievous 2, sad 2, misc 34


Agreed, a broken covemnant is "useless."

Put Adam and Eve in proper context. Just for fun, let's look at what scientists say. Humans had just survived the younger Dryas where they lived as hunter-gatherers in family groups. Then mankind invented agriculture. The Bible even claims that Adam was the first farmer.

What "scientist say" is taking Adam and Eve "out of proper context."
They were placed in the Garden setting from their Creation and were given Dominion over all of GOD'S creation. It was GOD who Created Vegetation---not mankind.
ALL Families spread out from those two people.
Are you claiming that "Scientist" are now "theorizing" multiple and varied sites of mud-holes for the different "family groups"??

Now, suddenly, humankind starts living in farming communities, with unrelated people. Now, for the first time, they need covenants. Thus Evil, covenant breaking enters the world for the first time. Marriage has also become a covenant in this new order and people also break it.

see above. Marriage was always considered by the Creator GOD to be between one man and one woman. Agreed, mankind has broken that relationship(marriage) since Cain's descendant--Lamech and the antedeluvians.

The same Hebrew word is used for breaking the marriage covenant, but it is usually translated wicked. Now wheter or not there were people before Adam doesn't matter. Farming demands many social changes over Adam's original life, including covenant breaking (Evil)

Sin/evil/disobedience does have a way of corrupting harmonious relationships.
Adam Life in the Garden changed because of disobedience and not because he was in charge of the Garden.
That Change came about because of the "lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life."-----"Evil" because of misuse.

 

[sincerly]

Interesting commentary on word meaning.

You need to read further back in the posts to learn the nature of what is being discussed.
There are certain premises that are being assumed .. so that the argument reads ..
If you believe X .. then how can Y be so.

The "assumptions" are on the parts of those who do not belive the narrative. They want one to believe their "assumptions"----Not the Narrative nor the other detail declaring passages which would clear up any misunderstandings.

If you believe in the traditional version Genesis, that God punished Adam and Eve for their sin, "the fall of man" and so forth.

Then you must believe that God was ignorant of his own creation.

If God created Adam and Eve .. then he would know the strengths and weaknesses of his own creation. According to the Bible Adam knew no evil.

This would make Adam a most trusting and innocent person. You put that person in a Garden with "the great deciever".

Obviously in such a situation God would know in advance the outcome of this situation .. was the initial point.

The "if--"then" assumptions are the "Evil" in the understanding.

Disobedience is associated with a consequence. Both parties are aware of the stated "outcome".
Adam chose to disobey--There was no irresistable pressure placed on Adam or Eve.
JOB showed that all the pressure and cunning of Satan didn't have to end in failure to Satan's tactics.
Enoch walked the walk and "was taken".
The Choice was Adam's---to live or to die.
GOD made a way of escape in the "Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world".
Adam didn't know any Evil initially---he was created "good" not "evil". God had no desire for any of HIS Creation to experience anything we consider "bad"/"hurtful"/etc. And the "TREE OF LIFE" was evidence that Adam was intended to live forever.

Unfortunately, the narrative indicated the Adam while "a most trusting and innocent person" was trusting in Eve's decision to disobey GOD and obey the serpent/Satan.

 

[Oryonder]

Answering questions with questions?...okay....

God knows your thoughts.
And still you think as you do?

Is that by His grace?....or yours?

Freewill includes your thoughts moving along...as you see fit.

The ability to know good from evil is not inherit.
Think about animals for awhile...take your time.

Man as a species...Day Six.
No law...no restrictions.....no garden...

Then Chapter Two.

First you say God did not know the minds of Adam and Eve and now you say that God knows our thoughts.

It seems you are unable to address certain ideas. The questions I asked follow from your belief that God did not know the mind of Adam and Eve.

It is unfortunate that you don't want to discuss these things.

What questions would you like answered ? I have no problem answering your questions.

 

[Oryonder]

The "assumptions" are on the parts of those who do not belive the narrative. They want one to believe their "assumptions"----Not the Narrative nor the other detail declaring passages which would clear up any misunderstandings.

The "if--"then" assumptions are the "Evil" in the understanding.

Since when is simple logic evil ? This kind of thinking is what led to the Church burning people for disagreeing with them. Sheeshh ..

You are not making any sense ?? I was talking what follows from believing 100% in the narrative ? .. not about those who do not believe ?

Simple question: From your reading of the Genesis did God know that Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil ?

 

[Thief]

First you say God did not know the minds of Adam and Eve and now you say that God knows our thoughts.

It seems you are unable to address certain ideas. The questions I asked follow from your belief that God did not know the mind of Adam and Eve.

It is unfortunate that you don't want to discuss these things.

What questions would you like answered ? I have no problem answering your questions.

You skipped over the obvious question...apparently on purpose.

Does God know YOUR thoughts?
And would Adam and Eve have the same condition?

If you are in your head...by yourself....
then what makes you think God did otherwise with the first couple?

 

[sincerly]

Since when is simple logic evil ? This kind of thinking is what led to the Church burning people for disagreeing with them. Sheeshh ..

"Simple logic' is evil when it it from a mind that has as its motivation/purpose to contradict the "thus saith the Lord GOD".
It isn't just the Church, but many groups of peoples who consider themselves above the ways God has devised for mankind to act in regards to other Persons.

That "Sheeshh" is the first indication of the mindset of "disagreement".

You are not making any sense ?? I was talking what follows from believing 100% in the narrative ? .. not about those who do not believe ?

And it is those who have no use for the GOD of the Narrative who have no regards for the ones who Do Believe GOD and the Narrative.

Simple question: From your reading of the Genesis did God know that Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil ?

God created them "good". They were informed of the forbidden Fruit and the consequences. Your simple logic then is they understood that disobeying was "evil"/a bad response. However, until they ate of the fruit, they were unaware of the consequences.
Hearing what the serpent had to say wasn't evil, however, the acting upon the suggestions to believe the Serpent affirmed the lust they had in their hearts/mind.

Your logic is lacking information because you do not wish to obtain all the facts of the Narrative and write it off as just a myth/fable---along with GOD.

 

[Oryonder]

You skipped over the obvious question...apparently on purpose.

Does God know YOUR thoughts?
And would Adam and Eve have the same condition?

If you are in your head...by yourself....
then what makes you think God did otherwise with the first couple?

I have addressed the issue " Does God knows your thoughts" (1) numerous times. Upgrade your reading comprehension.

The question here is "not" (1)

The real question is "Does God know the contents of Genesis ..(That Adam and Eve had no knowledge of Good or Evil)?"

 

[waitasec]

"Simple logic' is evil when it it from a mind that has as its motivation/purpose to contradict the "thus saith the Lord GOD".

those that flew into the WTC thought the very same thing.

 

[Thief]

I have addressed the issue " Does God knows your thoughts" (1) numerous times. Upgrade your reading comprehension.

The question here is "not" (1)

The real question is "Does God know the contents of Genesis ..(That Adam and Eve had no knowledge of Good or Evil)?"

And you think Genesis is required reading to be God?

 

[Oryonder]

"Simple logic' is evil when it it from a mind that has as its motivation/purpose to contradict the "thus saith the Lord GOD".
It isn't just the Church, but many groups of peoples who consider themselves above the ways God has devised for mankind to act in regards to other Persons.

That "Sheeshh" is the first indication of the mindset of "disagreement".

What contradiction are you talking about ?

"For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." Genesis 3:5 (KJV)

God knew that Adam and Eve did not know good from evil.

Do you not think that God would know what the outcome would be when he placed these innocent and trusting people into the Eden with the great deciever ?​

God created them "good". They were informed of the forbidden Fruit and the consequences. Your simple logic then is they understood that disobeying was "evil"/a bad response. However, until they ate of the fruit, they were unaware of the consequences.

If they had no concept of good or evil. How could they know that disobedience was evil ?

Hearing what the serpent had to say wasn't evil, however, the acting upon the suggestions to believe the Serpent affirmed the lust they had in their hearts/mind.

If they had no concept of good or evil. How could they know that disobedience was evil ?

Your logic is lacking information because you do not wish to obtain all the facts of the Narrative and write it off as just a myth/fable---along with GOD

So far it is you that does not seem to understand the narrative.

What other "facts" from the Genesis narrative are you referring to ?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Isn't Genesis [ 3 vs 4, 5] Satan speaking to Eve?

Liar Satan was addressing Eve at Gen 3 vs 4,5.

Eve acknowledged that Satan was the great deceiver [Master of Deception] -Gen. 3 v 13

What does 1st Timothy 2 v 14 say about Eve ?______________

Previously in Genesis Adam was educated that it would be evil to eat.- Genesis 2 vs 16,17

 

[outhouse]

it states serpent

not satan, had they wanted it to read satan, they would have stated it clearly. they did not.


only with imagination can you make a serpent satan in this example

 

[Thief]

Imagination is the problem solving part of the mind.
Without it there are no problems you can solve.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

"Simple logic' is evil when it it from a mind that has as its motivation/purpose to contradict the "thus saith the Lord GOD".
.

That's a pretty depraved way to look at it.

God created them "good". They were informed of the forbidden Fruit and the consequences. Your simple logic then is they understood that disobeying was "evil"/a bad response. However, until they ate of the fruit, they were unaware of the consequences.

Actually, according to the tale itself they were also unaware, indeed unable, to know that disobeying was Evil. Therefore they made an uniformed choice and cannot be held morally accountable. Even as mere humans we don't generally prosecute children for adult crimes - because they do not understand the consequences nor the morality of their choices.

Because God deliberately prevented them from knowing what Good and Evil were, Adam and Eve were no better than our preschool children.

[edit] Oop sorry Oryonder, I macked all over what you already said :/

 

[Oryonder]

And you think Genesis is required reading to be God?

Humor .. So what are you trying to say here ? That God was not aware of the of the things that Genesis atrributes to him ?

God would not have to read Genesis to know the story of creation.

If the Genesis account is true then God would already the story.