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How did the first living thing on earth come to life?

Mister_T

Forum Relic
Premium Member
Flappycat said:
Actually, the theory that the universe's age is finite doesn't require for matter to arise from nothingness...possibly by definition. The "beginning of time" is postulated to be exactly that: the very beginning. There is no "before" if we are taking for granted that time has an absolute beginning. The universe, then, can be postulated to have had exactly as much energy in it at the beginning of time as it has presently. It would have been a whole universe packed into a singularity the size of a coin. Zero entropy.
I'm aware of the Big Bang theory. The problem that arises is where that packed universe came from. It didn't come from no where.

In other words, you're just going by religious dogma. That's not quite as cheap as a folk theory, given that purportedly true events are described within, but what you just stated is the crux of the problem. The narrators cannot be held accountable for what they say because they died thousands of years ago. Without accountability, you have nothing of much worth.
I'm not going by squat. A question was asked abot God's origin. I gave him the answer that is given in the "textbook" on God (The Bible, which is supposedly the authority on God) since there is no answer for that in science textbooks. Which is understandable seeing as how God is not science. I would not go to the Bible to learn about the inner workings of a cell.


painted wolf said:
"inorganic" molicules and "organic" compounds are known to arrange themselves into amino acids and the other building blocks of life. Given the right conditions "life" seems to be inevitable
Like Flappycat pointed out, I was going off on a tangent about the origins of universe. I started a thread on the subject since it is off topic.
 

Flappycat

Well-Known Member
Mister_T said:
I'm aware of the Big Bang theory. The problem that arises is where that packed universe came from. It didn't come from no where.
No prior nothingness is postulated. If you're asking why we make the assumption that the universe exists, rather than not, here's your answer: lol.

I'm not going by squat.
Oopsie! :foot:!

A question was asked abot God's origin. I gave him the answer that is given in the "textbook" on God (The Bible, which is supposedly the authority on God) since there is no answer for that in science textbooks. Which is understandable seeing as how God is not science. I would not go to the Bible to learn about the inner workings of a cell.
That's the problem. The authors of the Bible cannot be held accountable for their claims. Even old scientific knowledge is retested and reanalyzed from time to time, even as part of standard studies. In the arena of science, Lot would have been demanded by a bunch of annoyed researchers to explain why he attributed the fall of Sodom to divine intervention rather than to tectonic activity, and he'd have been asked to supply evidence that he didn't retrospectively imagine his visitations. Also, the site of the disaster would have been swarmed with researchers and documenters for quite a few years by people who would like to gain insights about the faults in its construction, to see which areas were left in the worst state of destruction, etcetera. Entire textbooks could have been written regarding analysis of the site, several alternative theories would have been suggested, and the only way for divine intervention to have been called as the cause would be that it stands out as the most probable, given the circumstances. Even then, we'd have to do extensive detective work of our own on the site in order to find out how much of it fits with the data directly available to us.
 

XAAX

Active Member
painted wolf said:
Life doesn't require something coming from nothing.

"inorganic" molicules and "organic" compounds are known to arrange themselves into amino acids and the other building blocks of life. Given the right conditions "life" seems to be inevitable.

wa:do

Careful Painted Wolf....Your using logic and fact in here...You may confuse people....lol...By the way, Yes, your absolutely correct...
 

XAAX

Active Member
Mister_T said:
I'm aware of the Big Bang theory. The problem that arises is where that packed universe came from. It didn't come from no where.

Alot of the problems Mister_T is the lack of knowledge on things. Religions get to exploit this in people. The compression of the universe came from a repeating cycle. For example, the universe around us has already been proved to be expanding. It has also been discovered that this effect is slowing. What this means is, scientist are speculating, is that once it reaches the point to where the force that caused the expansion in the first place is overcome by gravitational pull again it will pulled back in on itself. That is more than likely where the "compactness" originated from. It is probably an endless repeating pattern.

Mister_T said:
I'm not going by squat. A question was asked abot God's origin. I gave him the answer that is given in the "textbook" on God (The Bible, which is supposedly the authority on God) since there is no answer for that in science textbooks. Which is understandable seeing as how God is not science. I would not go to the Bible to learn about the inner workings of a cell.

You are making a separation between religion and science that is not needed. The "textbook" you are referring to has its own roots in problems. It was put together by a Pagan ruler to unite his kingdom for more power...that’s it...Before that, what you call a "textbook" written by god, was nothing more than stories passed down by different groups for over 300 years. As a matter of fact what you are reading in your bible is only what was agreed on by the pagan enlisted group. So as far as that goes, God didn't write anything. As for your personal health, in my opinion, versus focusing so much on the bible alone, combine religion with science. You will make a lot more progress that way...
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
love said:
science: the study of the physical nature of the existing universe.
life: the energy that exists in all of the physical universe (even inanimate objects).
God: the source of the energy that governs the universe.
spirit: a presence outside the physical universe that cannot be explained by science.
faith: to look past the physical and believe in what cannot be seen.
revelation: to know that all things physical had a begining and will pass but the spirit is forever.
wisdom of man: mostly foolishness


So you must be right because you said it......RIGHT???????

Science is a broad term and there are many different types of sciences that have nothing to do with your definition.

What proof do you have that life exist in inanimate objects?

Prove to me the existance of a god. You keep saying universe but to my knowledge we lack the ability to know what exist in the WOLE universe.

"Revealation"......Prove it...!!
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
Reverend Rick said:
What is the difference between believing that the all creator with a single thought came into existence and a "Big Bang" started it all?

Both theories require unprovable faith in the unknown.

With the big bang and evolution scientist have the ability to test a theory and either be able to prove the theory or render the theory void.

God is, at the present time and given the current lack of proof, a man made idea.
 

love

tri-polar optimist
This is an old cliche' but can't you see forrest or are the trees in the way. Let us go out here and see if we can find the meaning of life by scraping the amino acids off this tree and analyzing it. Life is all around you. Stop and smell the roses.
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
XAAX said:
Alot of the problems Mister_T is the lack of knowledge on things. Religions get to exploit this in people. The compression of the universe came from a repeating cycle. For example, the universe around us has already been proved to be expanding. It has also been discovered that this effect is slowing. What this mean, scientist are speculating, is that once it reaches the point to where the force that caused the expansion in the first place is overcome by gravitational pull again and is pulled back in on itself. That is more than likely where the "compactness" originated from. It is probably an endless repeating pattern.



You are making a separation between religion and science that is not needed. First of all the "textbook" you are referring to has its own root in problems. First of all, It was put together by a Pagan ruler to unite his kingdom for more power...that’s it...Before that, what you call a "textbook" written by god, was nothing more than stories passed down by different groups for over 300 years. As a matter of fact what you are reading in your bible is only what was agreed on by the pagan enlisted group. So as far as that goes, God didn't write anything. As for your personal health, in my opinion, versus focusing so much on the bible alone, combine religion with science. You will make a lot more progress that way...

KUDOS....:cool:
 

greatcalgarian

Well-Known Member
Mister_T said:
1)Last time I checked, it was a scientific law that matter can neither be created or destroyed.

That scientific law is no longer universally accepted. Matter and energy are known to be inter-convertable. So if you consider matter has been converted into energy, and that matter is no longer existing in the form of matter, and is in the form of energy, then matter can be destroyed or created.
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
Mister_T said:
I'm aware of the Big Bang theory. The problem that arises is where that packed universe came from. It didn't come from no where.

Well if it didn’t come from nowhere, then it must have come from somewhere. So the next question is where did that somewhere come from. That somewhere from which the universe came can’t have come from nowhere, that somewhere must also have come from somewhere. And what about the somewhere from which came the somewhere from which the universe came? That somewhere can’t have come from nowhere, it must have come from somewhere. So where did the somewhere from which the somewhere came from which the somewhere came from which the universe came come from? That is the question we should be asking. Or on the other hand maybe we shouldn’t.

I trust you can see how quickly this line of reasoning can become futile.
 

Navigator

Member
It seems to me any explanation other than creation, raises more questions than it answers. You try to learn more about biology and chemistry to answer some of these questions and each answer brings multiple more questions. The more you try the further you have to stretch the realm of possibility. The ratio of answers to holes in the theory gets further out of wack the more you study it.

So I give up trying, the empirical evidence I see around me, in day to day observation, requires very little streteching from the word of God, so I take it as the true description of our creation.
 

Rough_ER

Member
Navigator said:
It seems to me any explanation other than creation, raises more questions than it answers. You try to learn more about biology and chemistry to answer some of these questions and each answer brings multiple more questions. The more you try the further you have to stretch the realm of possibility. The ratio of answers to holes in the theory gets further out of wack the more you study it.

So I give up trying, the empirical evidence I see around me, in day to day observation, requires very little streteching from the word of God, so I take it as the true description of our creation.

So essentially, you cannot be bothered searching truth so you settle for the most convenient explanation? I'm sorry but I find that immensely frustrating. Also, you must have been studying the wrong books if you find no reason in science. Give me an example of an area of science which raises more questions than it answers, maybe then I will better understand what you mean.
 

Navigator

Member
Rough_ER said:
So essentially, you cannot be bothered searching truth so you settle for the most convenient explanation? I'm sorry but I find that immensely frustrating. Also, you must have been studying the wrong books if you find no reason in science. Give me an example of an area of science which raises more questions than it answers, maybe then I will better understand what you mean.

You should not be frustrated by my opinion, instead inspired by the oppurtunity. I admit to know very little about biology and chemistry compared to some here and based on your response you are included. However naive you may perceive it, with the description given in the Bible and the understanding given by the Holy Spirit, I am comfortable with my conclusion although much of it is based on faith.

The main glaring problem I have is how diffucult it is in a lab to get two molecules to join together for a positive result, but yet it has happened in nature trillions upon trillions of times only by coincedence. How many more times in nature has the result been negative?

Like I said, I am uneducated in this area and I am not even sure if molecules are the correct substance in this discussion. So please respond in laymens terms otherwise it will proabably go over my head. You have a point in that to an extent I have settled for the convenient way out is why I continue here, so please go easy on me:eek: .
 

Flappycat

Well-Known Member
Okay, here's layman's terms for you: imagine a factory that has an unlimited supply of fresh workers. Now, this factory is not at all selective in hiring, not one bit. They have a more straightforward method of quality control. If a worker isn't putting out, they just put a bullet into his brain and replace him with a new worker. That's not all, though because, you see, there's only so much work that the factory needs to have done. Therefore, if one worker is doing the work of two other workers, the other two workers are also shot dead, even if they were doing their best to be productive. Sometimes, workers in this factory get in a team together, and some of THESE workers won't directly do the work. Instead, they will do things to keep up the team's morale, negotiate with the bosses to get more of the work entrusted to them, manage the team's image, dedicate themselves to building tools that improve overall performance manifold, and help to root out lazy or dishonest workers elsewhere in exchange for earning forgiveness from the factory during hard times. The factory, then, doesn't really have to do anything at all other than continue nixing workers who are found to be useless, and it's left up to the workers to come up with innovative ways of getting things done. This is somewhat equivalent to natural selection.

This really doesn't come into play until you already have the very first self-replicating organisms, though. After you've got your first few replicators, natural selection works fine, but actually GETTING them isn't so easy. However, there are numerous conditions in nature that are actually conducive to the organization of matter. Though complex molecules are naturally degenerative, a high input of energy forces levels of ionization that are promotive of reorganization. As long as an environment has a nearly constant energy input, the breaking down of molecules would just result in yet more potentiality for reorganization. The advent of DNA may have been a result of a deterioration of a form of "sexual" reproduction between RNA-based organisms that had lost their ability to replicate on their own. As these sexually reproducing RNA organisms further deteriorated in their ability to even survive on their own, they would eventually be locked to each other permanently as one molecule. Though the RNA strands in and of themselves had lost much of their stand-alone sophistication, a greater level of sophistication and stability was gained as a result. Now consider this: for millions of years, these DNA-based organisms managed to survive just fine through rapid "asexual" reproduction, this constant energy input constantly forcing levels of ionization that do not allow for a net trend of deterioration. However, these DNA-based organisms could only survive by spamming their environment with enough rough copies of themselves to compensate for the trend toward deterioration. Now, we're still going on the assumption that stand-alone complexity will always trend toward breaking down on an individual basis. Natural selection is not nice to individuals. Eventually, the only way for some of these organisms to even preserve their identity would be for many of them to expend all of their energy and resources for the sake of making sure that their heritage could survive. This, of course, is what we call the multi-cellular organism. The multi-cellular organism is really nothing but a bunch of cripples banding together to save themselves from extinction. On an individual basis, these pathetic things can't even survive for long. Eventually, they end up breaking down into the genetically assigned roles within the context of a multi-cellular organism, doomed for their own information to be lost from the very beginning of their lives. Even the multi-cellular organism, however, is fated to rely upon other organisms for the survival of its identity, in the form of sexual reproduction as we know it. You see, eventually there comes a point that this whole, complicated organism, over the course of its entire lifetime, can only reproduce HALF of a cell that can truly carry the information needed for the continuation of this organism's level of organization. This pathetic thing can't even make a full copy of itself. Isn't it pitiful? Such a failure in stand-alone reproductive potential is just shameful. We should be embarrassed to call ourselves sexually reproducing, multi-cellular organisms. The only thing that helps us to save face is that, elsewhere in nature, the breakdown has continued in the form of organisms that can only survive by banding together in hives and colonies, such as ants and bees. We should feel sorry for these poor things, for they have lost more of their independence than we have ever imagined. Looking at it another way, however, they are the next logical evolutionary step. Look at how sophisticated an ant colony really is. Ants are arguably one of the most sophisticated organisms in the universe, but they're also arguably the most pathetic sellouts in nature. Eventually, we may even see these losers having to send their genes out to other colonies just to maintain their genetic integrity. When that happens, watch out because, when that occassion comes, it'll only be a matter of time before this new species of ant begins organizing on a greater level still. We'll see ant colonies banding together almost like one organism, doing things with each other's help that humans can only imagine in their wildest dreams.

Evolution is a process of creative destruction and novel incapacitation. We are death machines, programmed from the very beginning of our existence to rot and to die. For us not to die would be a defiance of nature. It would be to spit in the face of creation. However, think of it this way: if humans manage to gain the ability to live all but forever through the exploitation of technology, we will have only continued the creative process, for we will have lost our ability to exist without our inventions. Like those who came before us, we will become a race of dependents, crippled from the very beginning of our lives. That, my friend, is evolution.
 

Navigator

Member
Flappycat said:
Okay, here's layman's terms for you: imagine a factory that has an unlimited supply of fresh workers. Now, this factory is not at all selective in hiring, not one bit. They have a more straightforward method of quality control. If a worker isn't putting out, they just put a bullet into his brain and replace him with a new worker. That's not all, though because, you see, there's only so much work that the factory needs to have done. Therefore, if one worker is doing the work of two other workers, the other two workers are also shot dead, even if they were doing their best to be productive. Sometimes, workers in this factory get in a team together, and some of THESE workers won't directly do the work. Instead, they will do things to keep up the team's morale, negotiate with the bosses to get more of the work entrusted to them, manage the team's image, dedicate themselves to building tools that improve overall performance manifold, and help to root out lazy or dishonest workers elsewhere in exchange for earning forgiveness from the factory during hard times. The factory, then, doesn't really have to do anything at all other than continue nixing workers who are found to be useless, and it's left up to the workers to come up with innovative ways of getting things done. This is somewhat equivalent to natural selection.

Lets start with the factory analogy you used. The way I see it this is a clearer decription of creation than evolution.

Somebody superior is in control of the factory and its employees. They make decisions based on productivity and I would submit the biggest producers are often called a**kissers, brown nosers and similar terms used today to describe a servant.
This takes us back to the most important commandment in the Bible "Love God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself". If you consistently put others in front of your own personal desires, it will change your attitude, and you will reap success.
This somewhat opposite of natural selection or seeking to improve myself.
We love our children due to human nature, instinct.
Unconditional love is a result of spirituality.
 

Rough_ER

Member
Navigator said:
Lets start with the factory analogy you used. The way I see it this is a clearer decription of creation than evolution.

Somebody superior is in control of the factory and its employees. They make decisions based on productivity and I would submit the biggest producers are often called a**kissers, brown nosers and similar terms used today to describe a servant.

The employer represents natural selection. A conscious being isn't doing the selection in reality. The whole point of an analogy is that it is representative and explanatory. The boss is natural selection, sorting the wheat from the chaff. The workers are genes effecting the turn over of the factory or the successfulness of the organism. If a gene causes beneficial phenotypic effects to the organism, or the worker causes the factory to perform better, it will not be selected out or fired.

(At least this is thet way I took the analogy, correct me if I've interpreted it incorrectly Flappycat).
 

Navigator

Member
Rough_ER said:
The employer represents natural selection. A conscious being isn't doing the selection in reality. The whole point of an analogy is that it is representative and explanatory. The boss is natural selection, sorting the wheat from the chaff. The workers are genes effecting the turn over of the factory or the successfulness of the organism. If a gene causes beneficial phenotypic effects to the organism, or the worker causes the factory to perform better, it will not be selected out or fired.

(At least this is thet way I took the analogy, correct me if I've interpreted it incorrectly Flappycat).

I understand.

What I was saying is it reinforces my original statement "it raises more questions than it answers". It is quite a stretch to give natural selection, which is based almost solely on coincedence, the title of boss. But at the same time it fits perfectly in the perspective of creation.
 
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