How do Baha’is see atheists?

[Trailblazer]

Right, IF a God exists. That is a guess. There is no evidence that offers us any details of a God that isn't known as existing. What you mean by "evidence" is what other people guess. There are no observed facts that you call evidence.

What I mean by evidence is the Messengers of God who are the evidence for God's existence. It is not a guess.
There is evidence that can be observed in the Messengers but there are no observed facts since facts require proof and there is no proof that God exists.

That is you guessing. When you write "if" that means you aren't relying on facts.

I never claimed to have facts about God. There are no facts about God, only beliefs. God is not a fact since facts require proof.

Fact: something that is known to have happened or to exist, especially something for which proof exists, or about which there is information:
fact

Fact: a thing that is known or proved to be true.
what is a fact - Google Search

Why would any rational person have beliefs that assume these supernatural claims are true? Taking the word of people who wrote the Bible or your messenger without adequate facts only tells us that some are desperate to believe in something.

And why take his word for it when he doesn't offer facts? Atheists don't take the word of anyone just because they make comforting claims, they demand evidence sufficient for reasoning.

The last thing I want is to have a religion. I believe it because of the facts surrounding the revelation of Baha'u'llah are 'proof to me' that there is a God.

Because many people want to believe in a God, or be important, or be an influence, or get attention. Many motives at play.

Why would belief in God make someone feel important, be an influence, or get attention? Dig deeper.
I only believe in God only because of the evidence tat God has provided.

 

[lukethethird]

Well, it's gotta be tough for Baha'is to "teach" their faith without looking like they are trying to teach and promote it. And it's gotta be tough to promote peace and unity when they are also saying that the teachings and laws of their prophet and religion are the only way to bring about peace and unity.

Yes, quite the dilemma for theists of all stripes and the convoluted logic and magic that it all entails.

 

[F1fan]

What I mean by evidence is the Messengers of God who are the evidence for God's existence. It is not a guess.

You are guessing they are genuine and truthful. They offer no evidence that they are. For some reason you are convinced, but skilled thinkers are not.

There is evidence that can be observed in the Messengers but there are no observed facts since facts require proof and there is no proof that God exists.

Messengers are all dead, so there is nothing to observe. You rely on their writings, and no one can ask them questions, because they are still dead. The things all your messengers claim are fantastic, namely them cliaming a God exists. There is no evidence of that when they refer to Gods. So we have reason to doubt them.

I never claimed to have facts about God. There are no facts about God, only beliefs. God is not a fact since facts require proof.

Facts are what critical thinkers require. So you are out of luck.

The last thing I want is to have a religion.

But you got your last thing. So why can't you better manage your wishes and thinking? You sound out of control and a victim. Why not think for yourself and claim your agency like critical thinkers?

I believe it because of the facts surrounding the revelation of Baha'u'llah are 'proof to me' that there is a God.

So ask yourself why you decided it is proof for you. Somehow you got everything you insist you don't want. Sounds like chaos.

Why would belief in God make someone feel important, be an influence, or get attention? Dig deeper.

Yes, you don't seem to be asking yourself any of these questions, just a puppet for some subconscious desires that your conscious mind thinks it doesn't want.

I only believe in God only because of the evidence tat God has provided.

If a God provided evidence then it exists, and if it exists it is a fact. You don't have to believe in God if it exists. But again you select a set of inconsistent words that mix different meanings and claims. I think you are panic writing again, that Ms. Hyde that comes out what you get trapped in these discussions. You will come back and admit that you don't know a God exists, and that you don't know if it provided evidence. A total reversal of your strong asertion "because of the evidence tat God has provided."

 

[Trailblazer]

You are guessing they are genuine and truthful. They offer no evidence that they are. For some reason you are convinced, but skilled thinkers are not.

They offered plenty of evidence. Baha'is are skilled thinkers and that is why they recognize the evidence.

Messengers are all dead, so there is nothing to observe. You rely on their writings, and no one can ask them questions, because they are still dead. The things all your messengers claim are fantastic, namely them cliaming a God exists. There is no evidence of that when they refer to Gods. So we have reason to doubt them.

There is nothing fantastic about claiming a God exists. People have known that God exists since the beginning of time.
There is evidence for God, it is the Messengers of God. Creation is also evidence but it is less direct evidence.

Facts are what critical thinkers require. So you are out of luck.

Facts about Baha'u'llah are what Baha'is require, and since we have them we are not out of luck.
Why would we be out of luck because you cannot see the evidence? We are only responsible for our own beliefs, nobody else's.

But you got your last thing. So why can't you better manage your wishes and thinking? You sound out of control and a victim. Why not think for yourself and claim your agency like critical thinkers?

I don't want a religion because I don't like organized religion but I believe in Baha'u'llah so I belong to a religion.
I am completely in control because I know what I am doing and why I am doing it.
I think for myself. I believe the Baha'i Faith is true so God exists, and that is why I am a Baha'i.

So ask yourself why you decided it is proof for you. Somehow you got everything you insist you don't want. Sounds like chaos.

People don't decide why something is proof to them. It is proof to me because of the way I think, but it is not proof to you because of the way you think.
What I want does not matter. Only truth matters to me. I don't like organized religion so I don't participate with the other Baha'is.

Yes, you don't seem to be asking yourself any of these questions, just a puppet for some subconscious desires that your conscious mind thinks it doesn't want.

I ask myself all these questions and I am consciously aware of the answers.

If a God provided evidence then it exists, and if it exists it is a fact. You don't have to believe in God if it exists.

If a God provided proof that He exists, then it would be a fact that God exists. But as I have said myriad times, there is no proof that God exists, there is only evidence. Since there is no proof people either believe that God exists or they do not believe that God exists.

But again you select a set of inconsistent words that mix different meanings and claims.

I have explained it very clearly, over and over and over and over again. I never mix meanings or claims. Here it is again.

Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid: https://www.google.com/search

Evidence is anything that you see, experience, read, or are told that causes you to believe that something is true or has really happened.
Objective evidence definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary

Proof: evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth of a statement: https://www.google.com/search

There are many kinds of evidence, and not all evidence is verifiable. Verifiable evidence is proof because it establishes something as a fact.

Fact: something that is known to have happened or to exist, especially something for which proof exists, or about which there is information:
fact

Fact: a thing that is known or proved to be true.
what is a fact - Google Search

There is no proof that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God, since there is no verifiable evidence that He received any communication from God. There is only evidence that indicates that was the case.

There is no proof that God exists, since there is no verifiable evidence of God's existence.

I sure hope we got this squared away this time.

You will come back and admit that you don't know a God exists, and that you don't know if it provided evidence. A total reversal of your strong asertion "because of the evidence tat God has provided."

I know a God exists and I know God provided evidence. I have never faltered on that belief.

 

[CG Didymus]

What evidence are you talking about?
And why it is concrete if your messenger has not given any evidence?
How does what Bahaollah (or any other so-called messenger) wrote or said is evidence of an omni-potent God? IMHO, they were fooling people.

First you have to prove the existence of God before we can discuss what what he can make up and what he cannot.
No God has ever done that. That is why there are people who term it as hog-wash.

I'd like to see evidence of the Baha'i Faith actually working on a large scale. Supposedly, there are villages filled with Baha'is in rural India. Is it working? With hundreds, maybe thousands of people in the town that are Baha'is, how do they meet for feast? And how are the nine Baha'is that got elected to run the affairs of the Baha'is in that town doing? They have their regular job and then also serve on the Local Spiritual Assembly of Baha'is of that town? If we are talking a Baha'i town or city of 20 or 30 people, that would be hard enough, but what if it's a village of several thousand?

 

[CG Didymus]

You have to give examples of how Baha's think and if they are in any meaningful way able to think because this atheist hasn't seen an original thought from a Bahai' to date. Arguing over evidence as it regards to superstitious beliefs is a past time of the religious, and Baha'is are no exception, so convince us that Baha's are capable of thought and please provide examples.

Yeah, supposedly God is real, because their prophet says he's real. And he's a true manifestation of that real God, because of the things he wrote, his good character and such.

Actually, they themselves make it to where they should have some scientific, rational proof...

​

Abdu’l-Baha said “any religion contrary to science is not the truth.” – Paris Talks, p. 130. In fact, the Baha’i teachings say that material science and divine science must ultimately agree and correspond:​

​

Any religious belief which is not conformable with scientific proof and investigation is superstition, for true science is reason and reality, and religion is essentially reality and pure reason; therefore, the two must correspond. Religious teaching which is at variance with science and reason is human invention and imagination unworthy of acceptance, for the antithesis and opposite of knowledge is superstition born of the ignorance of man. If we say religion is opposed to science, we lack knowledge of either true science or true religion, for both are founded upon the premises and conclusions of reason, and both must bear its test.​

So, how can a Baha'i say to an Atheist that there is evidence, but that they, the Atheist, just doesn't like it? There should be proof and evidence that can withstand scientific scrutiny.

 

[CG Didymus]

38.25 grams of gold for first offense - USD 2407.44 (current rate in India)
Is that how Bahai House of Justice became rich?

Wow, they're never going to have a problem making money. I wonder if it keeps doubling with each offence? But what is the Baha'i authorities going to do with poor people that get caught foolin around?

 

[Truthseeker]

Prophecies point forward. They create expectations. But they are circumscribed by their historical and cultural and religious time and place.Given these limitations, which are rather profound, the claim that Baha’u’llah is the fulfillment of the Kalki prophecies must be qualified and nuanced. The fact that Baha’u’llah did not literally fulfill the Kalki prophecies is actually for the better

That's right, He doesn't fulfill the prophecies of Kalki, and that was never claimed by any of our authoritative figures. I don't care if some Baha'is claim that "Baha'i scholars have demonstrated that the prophecies in the Manu Srmiti and other books indicate the exact date of the end of the kalki Yuga and the coming of the Kalki Avatar. This date, 1844, is also the year of the beginning of the Baha'i Faith." It's junk.

The Baha’i teachings maintain that Baha’u’llah, the prophet and founder of the Baha’i Faith, has fulfilled the prophecies of the Buddha’s return – as well as the prophecies of the revered founders of the world’s religions

That depends on what prophecy of the Buddha. I'm not sure the prophecy cited in that article does that, either. The prophecies of the Buddha as far the time frame and what will happen go all over the place, there is no consistency to them. Not surprising since none of the Buddha's sayings were written down for hundreds of years.

Prophecies from Hindu and Buddhist sources are junk in my opinion. Prophecies are not the criterion for evidence for the Baha'i Faith, especially from those religions.

 

[CG Didymus]

38.25 grams of gold for first offense - USD 2407.44 (current rate in India)
Is that how Bahai House of Justice became rich?

One more thought... I thought that God was stupid, but he's brilliant. He used to have adulterers stoned to death. Now he's found a perfect way to fund all his temple building projects.

 

[Truthseeker]

Yes, quite the dilemma for theists of all stripes and the convoluted logic and magic that it all entails.

I think you need to change your profile. For religion it says "Xian", which is a common shorthand for Christian.

 

[CG Didymus]

The queen of superstition has spoken. Tell it like it is o' wise one.

"Who cares"? Same old BS. One minute Baha'is are saying how great the Bible is, and the next how useless it is.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I thought you didn't believe in life after eath. I don't believe in what has no evidence.

Yes, I do not believe in life after death, but what constitutes me is eternal. I also do not believe in death.
Death also is an illusion. Not even one molecule of a body dies with death.

That is 'non-duality' in Hinduism. If all things are one, any death will be the death of universe.
One can learn so much more if one is not fixated on one view.

I know, but the problem is about standards of evidence.
For me, what a 19th Century uneducated Iranian said is no evidence.

 

[CG Didymus]

That's right, He doesn't fulfill the prophecies of Kalki, and that was never claimed by any of our authoritative figures. I don't care if some Baha'is claim that "Baha'i scholars have demonstrated that the prophecies in the Manu Srmiti and other books indicate the exact date of the end of the kalki Yuga and the coming of the Kalki Avatar. This date, 1844, is also the year of the beginning of the Baha'i Faith." It's junk.

That depends on what prophecy of the Buddha. I'm not sure the prophecy cited in that article does that, either. The prophecies of the Buddha as far the time frame and what will happen go all over the place, there is no consistency to them. Not surprising since none of the Buddha's sayings were written down for hundreds of years.

Prophecies from Hindu and Buddhist sources are junk in my opinion. Prophecies are not the criterion for evidence for the Baha'i Faith, especially from those religions.

But that is a claim that several Baha'is are making.

Within his voluminous writing he describes how he has fulfilled prophecies in all the world’s religions.​

​

It's a great claim. But, just like with many Bible "prophecies" about Jesus, they don't fit the context and are often too vague to be meaningful.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I am a Baha’i, and I have posted to a lot of atheists over the last 10 years on various forums so I am well aware of their position about God’s existence.

As I see it, regarding God’s existence there are three mutually exclusive logical possibilities, given the evidence we have.

1. God exists and sends Messengers to communicate to humans (theist), or​

2. God exists and doesn’t communicate to humans (deist), or​

3. God does not exist (atheist)​

Atheists hold the third logical position, that God doesn’t exist. I consider that to be a logical position since there is no proof that God exists.

I know what I think about atheists, but I never knew what other Baha’is think, so I was happy to see this thread posted on a Baha'i Forum.
For any Baha’is or atheists who are curious what Baha’is think about atheists you can read on this thread:
https://www.reddit.com/r/bahai/comments/13vz3t2

To tell you the truth, I believe most of the people who are theists or deists, are more disbelievers of the True God, than Atheists.
That's because most people who believe in a God, their God is a product of their own imagination, thus has nothing to do with the True God. But Atheists reject any false gods.

 

[Truthseeker]

But that is a claim that several Baha'is are making.
Within his voluminous writing he describes how he has fulfilled prophecies in all the world’s religions.

An exaggeration by that site. Sometimes Baha'is go too far. Baha'u'llah doesn't demonstrate how He fulfilled the prophecies of Buddhism and Hinduism I don't think.

 

[CG Didymus]

7:12 In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria,

Just because Assyria conquered part of Persia, I wonder, was that part of Persia then called Assyria? Or... was it considered part of the Assyrian Empire but still was called Persia? Like if there was a prophecy about some great person coming from Britain and then the person came from Canada. Who would claim that because Canada was part of the British Empire that it counts as the person being from Britain?

 

[CG Didymus]

An exaggeration by that site. Sometimes Baha'is go too far. Baha'u'llah doesn't demonstrate how He fulfilled the prophecies of Buddhism and Hinduism I don't think.

Well, I'll check some more sites. But it is something that I heard why back from when I was first told about the Baha'i Faith. But those Baha'is also told me we'd have the "lesser" peace by the year 2000.

 

[Truthseeker]

But those Baha'is also told me we'd has the "lesser" peace by the year 2000.

I believed that too once. That was a common erroneous belief. I don't want to go into details unless you want me to.

 

[CG Didymus]

I believed that too once. That was a common erroneous belief. I don't want to go into details unless you want me to.

Thanks, but it's not necessary. Now how some Baha'is came to believe that all the prophecies of all the major religions have been fulfilled would be interesting. And actually, it seems like Baha'u'llah would need to have fulfilled them all. But because the prophecies are so vague or very detailed but symbolic, it's too easy to make them mean just about anything.

 

[Trailblazer]

An exaggeration by that site. Sometimes Baha'is go too far. Baha'u'llah doesn't demonstrate how He fulfilled the prophecies of Buddhism and Hinduism I don't think.

As usual, followers of a religion embellish what the Founder said.

Baha'u'llah did not claim to fulfill the prophecies of Buddhism and Hinduism. He only ever said He was the return of Christ and the coming of the Father as prophesized in the Bible.

“We, in truth, have sent Him Whom We aided with the Holy Spirit (Jesus Christ) that He may announce unto you this Light that hath shone forth from the horizon of the will of your Lord, the Most Exalted, the All-Glorious, and Whose signs have been revealed in the West. Set your faces towards Him (Bahá’u’lláh) on this Day which God hath exalted above all other days, and whereon the All-Merciful hath shed the splendour of His effulgent glory upon all who are in heaven and all who are on earth.” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 18​

​

“This is, truly, that which the Spirit of God (Jesus Christ) hath announced, when He came with truth unto you, He with Whom the Jewish doctors disputed, till at last they perpetrated what hath made the Holy Spirit to lament, and the tears of them that have near access to God to flow….”​

Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 19​

​

“The Word which the Son concealed is made manifest. It hath been sent down in the form of the human temple in this day. Blessed be the Lord Who is the Father! He, verily, is come unto the nations in His most great majesty.” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 84-85​

​

“Turn your faces towards Him, O concourse of the righteous… This is the day whereon the Rock (Peter) crieth out and shouteth, and celebrateth the praise of its Lord, the All-Possessing, the Most High, saying: ‘Lo! The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled!…’”​

Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 84-85​

​

“WE, verily, have come for your sakes, and have borne the misfortunes of the world for your salvation. Flee ye the One Who hath sacrificed His life that ye may be quickened? Fear God, O followers of the Spirit (Jesus), and walk not in the footsteps of every divine that hath gone far astray… Open the doors of your hearts. He Who is the Spirit (Jesus) verily, standeth before them.” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p, 92​

​

“O kings of Christendom! Heard ye not the saying of Jesus, the Spirit of God, “I go away, and come again unto you”? Wherefore, then, did ye fail, when He did come again unto you in the clouds of heaven, to draw nigh unto Him, that ye might behold His face, and be of them that attained His Presence? In another passage He saith:When He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 246​

That doesn't mean He did not fulfill them, only that He never claimed to. He would have had to fulfill them if He was the Promised One of all the religions, which is a Baha'i belief.