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How do Muslims know that the Quran hasn't changed?

Link

Veteran Member
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Also, "missiles" against "Devils", keep in mind per Quran Shayateen/Devils are from both humans and Jinn.
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
I made the following post before:

The Star and sky realities in Quran and hadiths


وَلَوْ فَتَحْنَا عَلَيْهِمْ بَابًا مِنَ السَّمَاءِ فَظَلُّوا فِيهِ يَعْرُجُونَ | Were We to open for them a gate of the sky, so that they could go on ascending through it, | Al-Hijr : 14

لَقَالُوا إِنَّمَا سُكِّرَتْ أَبْصَارُنَا بَلْ نَحْنُ قَوْمٌ مَسْحُورُونَ | they would surely say, ‘Indeed our vision is intoxicated; indeed, we are a bewitched lot.’ | Al-Hijr : 15

وَلَقَدْ جَعَلْنَا فِي السَّمَاءِ بُرُوجًا وَزَيَّنَّاهَا لِلنَّاظِرِينَ | Certainly We have made strongholds in the sky and adorned them for the onlookers, | Al-Hijr : 16

وَحَفِظْنَاهَا مِنْ كُلِّ شَيْطَانٍ رَجِيمٍ | and We have guarded it from every outcast Satan, | Al-Hijr : 17

إِلَّا مَنِ اسْتَرَقَ السَّمْعَ فَأَتْبَعَهُ شِهَابٌ مُبِينٌ | except someone who may eavesdrop, whereat there pursues him a manifest flame. | Al-Hijr : 18



The verses before also mention that God will not reveal to humans Angels, and part of the philosophy why is that unseen guides and lanterns he wishes out of his wisdom, to be humans among them as well that walk among them and show an example in the physical world as well.

But focusing on these verses, we see even if the disbelievers would be connected to Mohammad's (s) higher reality, they will accuse him of doing sorcery.

Here is the hadith about "stars" (burooj, same word use in verse Al-Hijr 16) from the Nabi (s):

المفيد : حدثنا الصدوق حدثنا محمد بن موسى بن المتوكل عن محمد بن ابي عبدالله الكوفي عن موسى بن عمران ([31][33]) عن عمه الحسين بن يزيد عن علي بن سالم عن ابيه علن سالم بن دينار عن سعد بن طريف عن الاصبغ بن نباتة قال : سمعت ابن عباس يقول : قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه واله : ذكر الله عز وجل عبادة ، وذكري عبادة ، وذكر علي عبادة ، وذكر الائمة من ولده عبادة ، والذي بعثني بالنبوة وجعلني خير البرية ، إن وصي لافضل الاوصياء ، وإنه لحجة الله على عباده ، وخليفته على خلقه ، ومن ولده الائمة الهداة بعدي ، بهم يحبس الله عن أهل الارض ، وبهم يمسك السماء ان تقع على الارض إلا بإذنه ، وبهم يمسك السماء ان تميد بهم ، وبهم يسقى خلقه الغيث ، وبهم يخرج النبات ، أولئك أولياء الله حقاً وخلفاؤه صدقاً ، عدتهم عدة الشهور ، وهي اثنا عشر شهراً ، وعدتهم عدة نقباء موسى بن عمران عليه السلام ، ثم تلا هذه الاية ( والسماء ذات البروج ) ، ثم قال : اتُقَدِّر ـ يابن عباس ـ أن الله يقسم بالسماء ذات البروج ، ويعني به السماء وبروجها ؟ قلت : يارسول الله ، فما ذاك ، قال : اما السماء فأنا ، واما البروج فالائمة بعدي ، أولهم علي وآخرهم المهدي ([32][34]) .


Quoted from Ibn Abbas from Rasool (s): The remembrance of god is worship, and remembrance of me is worship, and remembrance of Ali is worship, and remembrance of the leaders from his sons is worship, and I swear by the one who brought me up as a Prophet and made me the best of creatures - my successor is the best of successor and he is God's proof on his servants, and his ruler/representative on his creation, and from his sons is the leaders of guidance after me by them does God account on the people of earth, and by them does he prevent the sky from falling on the people of the earth by his permission, and by them does he stop the sky from destroying them, and by them does he bring down the rain, and by them does he bring about the harvest, and these God's Walis by truth and his rulers/representatives truly, and their number is that of the luminaries (to be sought for illumination) and they are twelve luminaries (to be sought from illumination) and their number is that of the Captains of Musa son of Imran, and they are twelve then he recited the verse "And by the sky full of stars" then said "On Son of Abbas, do you think that God would swear by the sky full of stars and he means the (physical) sky and it's stars? so I said "O Messenger of God what is it then?" He said "as for the sky/heaven it's me, as for the stars they are the leaders after me, first of them is Ali and last of them is the Mahdi".



We see also in this Ziyarat of Imam Zainal Abideen (a):


"O coolness of the vision of those who look and the Gnostics"

We also find of "O light of the strivers" "O Lamp of the worlds"

In fact, similar words are found in many Ziyarats.

There is also a large portion of hadiths that say Imams (a) are the "carriers of the throne".



The connector is the Imam of time





وَإِنْ كَانَ كَبُرَ عَلَيْكَ إِعْرَاضُهُمْ فَإِنِ اسْتَطَعْتَ أَنْ تَبْتَغِيَ نَفَقًا فِي الْأَرْضِ أَوْ سُلَّمًا فِي السَّمَاءِ فَتَأْتِيَهُمْ بِآيَةٍ ۚ وَلَوْ شَاءَ اللَّهُ لَجَمَعَهُمْ عَلَى الْهُدَىٰ ۚ فَلَا تَكُونَنَّ مِنَ الْجَاهِلِينَ | And should their aversion be hard on you, find, if you can, seek a tunnel into the ground, or a ladder into sky, that you may bring them a sign. Had Allah wished, He would have brought them together on guidance. So do not be one of the ignorant. | Al-An'aam : 35



Pay attention that this a sign type and that this sign type is called the guidance. Of course Mohammad (s) was commanded to connect whoever he can, and same with Imam Mahdi (a).

And so what does this mean? It means seeking help of Imam Mahdi (a) and asking God to make us see through his hands, and be guided to see him, as many of the prayers regarding Imam Mahdi (a) teach is not really appealing to God and Imam to connect us since God has already displayed his wish for the Imam of time to connect all people and Jinn that he can.

Imam Jaffar (a) says about Du'a:

Reflect about what you ask for and why you are asking: supplication should be a total response to the Truth on your part, and a melting of the heart in contemplation of its Lord. It is to abandon all choices and to surrender all matters, both outward and inward, to Allah. If the preconditions of the supplication are not met, then do not look for fulfillment, for He knows what is secret and what is hidden; you might ask Him for something when He knows that you conceal the opposite of it.

(Misbahal Shariah, section on supplication)

So really when we ask to see this reality, it's about us changing ourselves to submit to God and come to terms with it. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) ordered Mohammad (s) in verse 6:35 if he can to connect whoever he can. But the reality is he could not due to the hearts of people running away from God.

We read in Du'a Nudba:

ايْنَ ٱلسَّبَبُ ٱلْمُتَّصِلُ بَيْنَ ٱلارْضِ وَٱلسَّمَاءِ

ayna alssababu almuttasilu bayna al-ardi walssama'i

Where is the means of access that is connectedly extended between the earth and the heavens.


Imam Mahdi (s) similarly will connect whoever he can.



Blindness to the signs (of these type) is not acceptable



يَوْمَ نَدْعُو كُلَّ أُنَاسٍ بِإِمَامِهِمْ ۖ فَمَنْ أُوتِيَ كِتَابَهُ بِيَمِينِهِ فَأُولَٰئِكَ يَقْرَءُونَ كِتَابَهُمْ وَلَا يُظْلَمُونَ فَتِيلًا | The day We shall summon every group of people along with their imam, then whoever is given his book in his right hand—they will read it, and they will not be wronged so much as a single date-thread. | Al-Israa : 71

وَمَنْ كَانَ فِي هَٰذِهِ أَعْمَىٰ فَهُوَ فِي الْآخِرَةِ أَعْمَىٰ وَأَضَلُّ سَبِيلًا | But whoever has been blind in this [world], will be blind in the Hereafter, and [even] more astray from the
way. | Al-Israa : 72



These is this hadith:



في التوحيد عن الباقر عليه السلام في هذه الآية من لم يدلّه خلق السماوات والأرض واختلاف الليل والنهار ودوران الفلك والشمس والقمر والآيات العجيبات على أنّ وراء ذلك أمراً أعظم منه فهو في الآخرة أعمى وأضلّ سَبيلاً.



Imam Baqir (a) says regarding this verse (Isra, 72) whoever the creation of the heavens and earth and turning of night and day and rotation of the cosmos and sun and moon and the wonderous signs regarding from what is after that is a matter greater then him so he will be blind and more astray.

And this:

وفي العيون عن الرضا عليه السلام إيّاك وقول الجهال أهل العمى والضلال الذين يزعمُون أنّ الله جلّ وتقدّس موجود في الآخرة للحساب والثواب والعقاب وليسَ بموجود في الدنيا للطاعة والرجاء ولو كان في الوجود لله عز ّوجلّ نقص واهتضام لم يوجد في الآخرة أبداً ولكن القوم تاهوا وعموا وصمّوا عن الحق من حيث لا يعلمُون وذلك قوله عّز وجلّ من كان في هذه أعمى فهو في الآخرة أعمى وأضلّ سبيلاً يعني أعمى عن الحقائق الموجودة.



al-Rida, peace be upon him, beware of the sayings of the ignorant people of blindness and misguidance who claim that God, majestic and sanctified, is present in the Hereafter for reckoning, reward and punishment, and is not present in this world for obedience and hope. The Truth from whence they do not know, and that is what He, the Exalted and Majestic, says, whoever is blind in this world is blind in the Hereafter and is more astray from the path, meaning blind to the realities that are present.

My comment: This is a short saying we cannot fully see God in this world or next, whatever we blind to in this world, we will be blind to in next, and since we cannot fully see God, the blindness talked about is with the realities that are present to see.



وفي الخصال عن أمير المؤمنين عليه السلام أشدّ العمى من عمِي عن فضلنا وناصَبَنا العداوة بلا ذنب سبق إليه منّا إلاّ أن دعونا إلى الحق ودعاه من سوانا إلى الفتنة والدنيا فأتاهما ونصب البراءة منّا والعداوة.

the Commander of the Faithful, peace be upon him, the most severest in blindness is who is blind to our virtue and has enmity with us without a sin that preceded him from us, except that we called him to the truth and others called him to sedition and the world, so he came to them and expressed his detachment from us and enmity.



وفي الكافي والعياشي والقمي عن الصادق عليه السلام أنّه سئل عن هذه الآية فقال ذلك الذي يسوف نفسه الحجّ يعني حجّة الإسلام حتى يأتيه الموت.



As-Sadiq (a) was asked about this verse, so he said "By this he means what he attributes himself of proof meaning the proof of Islam until death comes to him"

My comments:

Putting these hadiths together, we can see the proof and virtues of Ahlulbayt (a) has to do with the "present realities" that we cannot be blind to.

As other verses have talked about "the stars" and Nabi (s) says this is his family (a), we ought to know we need to see them.

Again, when we ask God per Imam Jaffar (A), it's not about God and Ahlulbayt (a) doing their part, but for God to help us do our part so that we submit our hearts and stop rebelling and running away so as to see these realities. It's about our hearts needing to submit to God's will. We see Imam (a) is already commanded to connect whoever he can to this reality.

In Short: Asking Imam for this connection and help is just a formality to make our hearts submit. It's about getting our hearts to submit to God and this reality of Imams (a) and Imam Mahdi (a) as connector to this reality and his family (a) in the sky. Stop running away from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and this reality to Dunya in short, is what really "Ya Ali Madad" should be about.​

Wow, this is truly awesome. I'm looking forward to going through it carefully and slowly. :)
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
There are many verses.

وَلَقَدْ زَيَّنَّا السَّمَاءَ الدُّنْيَا بِمَصَابِيحَ وَجَعَلْنَاهَا رُجُومًا لِلشَّيَاطِينِ ۖ وَأَعْتَدْنَا لَهُمْ عَذَابَ السَّعِيرِ | We have certainly adorned the heaven/sky of the world with lamps, and made them [the means of pelting] missiles against the devils, and We have prepared for them a punishment of the Blaze. | Al-Mulk : 5

It's a whole theme in Quran.

Surah Jinn talks about the augmentation so that Jinn can no longer eavesdrop, and the same is true of astral projectors who have not been given permission from God.

OK. I know what I'll be doing for the rest of the fall 2023. Meet you back here in the winter to discuss it?
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
OK. I know what I'll be doing for the rest of the fall 2023. Meet you back here in the winter to discuss it?
What will you being doing? I might be back for a week or two depending when exams finish.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I was saying: "You've given enough food for thought and study to last me months, in the best possible way."



Cool.
Make it a one night journey. The journey to God is short for those who crave him.

:)

Thanks for your kind words.
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
Make it a one night journey. The journey to God is short for those who crave him.

:)

Thanks for your kind words.

I can only do my best. And sometimes it takes me at least twice to get it right. At least twice.
 

danieldemol

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Were We to open for them a gate of the sky, so that they could go on ascending through it, | Al-Hijr : 14
ROFL! More antiscientific nonsense in the Quran in my view. You don't need a gate in the sky to ascend through it as it is made of air, and the air molecules simply move aside as you pass between them.

If you reflect on this it shows that the author of the Quran thought the sky was a solid material such as the primitive ancients of the seventh century believed in my view.

And people have the audacity to assert such nonsense came from an All-knowing God!

Can't wait for the apologists reply where the obvious meaning of this verse is post-hoc rationalised as a translation error (not).
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
ROFL! More antiscientific nonsense in the Quran in my view. You don't need a gate in the sky to ascend through it as it is made of air, and the air molecules simply move aside as you pass between them.

If you reflect on this it shows that the author of the Quran thought the sky was a solid material such as the primitive ancients of the seventh century believed in my view.

And people have the audacity to assert such nonsense came from an All-knowing God!

Can't wait for the apologists reply where the obvious meaning of this verse is post-hoc rationalised as a translation error (not).
If that's how you want to approach it, go ahead.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Muslims say that the Quran is the same today as it has always been. However, I question this. From what I understand, during the very early history of Islam, one of the caliphs, Uthman, had all the copies of the Quran destroyed so that way new copies would be made that were standardized. Apparently this was because there were varying readings of the Quran due to the lack of diacritical marks. So anyway, how are we supposed to know that the new one that was issued was the same as the one that Muhammad supposedly received from the angel?
It says so in the book?

:tearsofjoy::shrug:
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
You really believe people in Tarot and all that stuff, don't know Satan is behind it? They might deny it, but they all know deep inside, that Satan is behind that stuff.

Satan is always worshipped heedlessly but deep inside people recognize him. They choose to ignore him and pretend there is no evil enemy.

Satan was warned about by Judaism and Christianity, even if distorted, it had enough light and truth to warn about Satan the enemy of mankind.
This is a ridiculous argmument.

I might just as well say

"You really believe muslims don't know Satan is behind it? They might deny it, but they all know deep inside that Satan is behind that stuff".

You are just repeating your claim and not offering any type of actual answer to the question you are supposedly responding to.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
This is a ridiculous argmument.

I might just as well say

"You really believe muslims don't know Satan is behind it? They might deny it, but they all know deep inside that Satan is behind that stuff".

You are just repeating your claim and not offering any type of actual answer to the question you are supposedly responding to.
I'm talking about how Satan was worshipped openly in Arabia. They did similar things.

Tarot is linked to key of Solomon book. That stuff is Satanism magic. Freemasons brought it to the world (Tarot that is). It literally teaches demonology and relying on them. It also categorizes the demons in similar way of horoscopes. Air, fire, water, earth types.

What I'm saying, people into that stuff, know better. They know no matter what they tell themselves, that Satan is present behind these things.
 
Last edited:

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It says so in the book?

:tearsofjoy::shrug:
Where?

The fact is we have ten main recitations with different words and sounds, mostly different way of reading same words, but sometimes words change and the meaning change sometimes is significant.

This does not compromise the integrity of Quran, but is in fact, expected because it's passed by humans. Just like we study different interpretations, we can study the different recitations.

So how do we ALL know what is the PROPER recitation, the answer is we do not, just as we all don't know the proper interpretation. But there is still a way to know.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
I'm talking about how Satan was worshipped openly in Arabia.

Yes, that is your claim.
A claim which is not in evidence.

Tarot is linked to key of Solomon book. That stuff is Satanism magic. Freemasons brought it to the world (Tarot that is). It literally teaches demonology and relying on them. It also categorizes the demons in similar way of horoscopes. Air, fire, water, earth types.

What I'm saying, people into that stuff, know better. They know no matter what they tell themselves, that Satan is present behind these things.
And you simply continue to restate your claims....

Oh well
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
Muslims say that the Quran is the same today as it has always been. However, I question this. From what I understand, during the very early history of Islam, one of the caliphs, Uthman, had all the copies of the Quran destroyed so that way new copies would be made that were standardized. Apparently this was because there were varying readings of the Quran due to the lack of diacritical marks. So anyway, how are we supposed to know that the new one that was issued was the same as the one that Muhammad supposedly received from the angel?

A Muslim (Sunni) told me that the oral recitations started to vary, so Uthman had it compiled by gathering the diminishing number of Mohamed's companions who collaborated and agreed to the exact wording, which was then written down. That is the version that has been passed along.

However, the question is moot because it doesn't matter. The fact that Muslims believe the Qur'an to be faithfully reproduced is all that counts.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
A Muslim (Sunni) told me that the oral recitations started to vary, so Uthman had it compiled by gathering the diminishing number of Mohamed's companions who collaborated and agreed to the exact wording, which was then written down. That is the version that has been passed along.

However, the question is moot because it doesn't matter. The fact that Muslims believe the Qur'an to be faithfully reproduced is all that counts.
That's the cover up winner side, really it was to hide more hadiths in terms of commentary to Quran.
 
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