How do Muslims know that the Quran hasn't changed?

[stevecanuck]

That's the cover up winner side, really it was to hide more hadiths in terms of commentary to Quran.

I understand that it's the accepted story by Sunnis at least. I don't know if any Shia splinter sects toe that line or not.

 

[Link]

I understand that it's the accepted story by Sunnis at least. I don't know if any Shia splinter sects toe that line or not.

I can link you a book that quotes Sunni hadiths about hadiths being forbidding to be written. And historical sources.

That would be a starting point to know the truth about this.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Have you read the key of Solomon? Read it and you'll know what I mean.

The Key of Solomon is a pseudepigraphal book of spells written in the 14th or 15th century, I believe. Why would I read that?

 

[Link]

The Key of Solomon is a pseudepigraphal book of spells written in the 14th or 15th century, I believe. Why would I read that?

Well Tarot is based on that. Freemasons hold the two books which Jews don't believe is from Solomon, to be Solomon's work. Key of Solomon is studied by freemasons and they brought the tarot system based on it and another book that I forget the name right now.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Well Tarot is based on that. Freemasons hold the two books which Jews don't believe is from Solomon, to be Solomon's work. Key of Solomon is studied by freemasons and they brought the tarot system based on it and another book that I forget the name right now.

Sorry, but there is no legitimacy to magic, spells, divination, amulets, etc. It's all hogwash. To the extent that Tarot "works" has nothing to do with cards, but solely to do with the intuition of the person doing the reading. I also really don't care who takes the Key of Solomon seriously.

 

[Link]

Sorry, but there is no legitimacy to magic, spells, divination, amulets, etc. It's all hogwash. To the extent that Tarot "works" has nothing to do with cards, but solely to do with the intuition of the person doing the reading. I also really don't care who takes the Key of Solomon seriously.

Peace,

I believe the key of Solomon is authored by Satan himself. There is a hadith explaining this, that a book of magic was attributed to Solomon's authority/reign after him from Iblis and people said this how he acquired his power.

Every culture has a tarot card equivalent, for example, Arabs did divination through arrows. Quran did not say it has no reality but rather that it's an act of Satan. Tarot just is focused on the demonology found in key of Solomon. Same with horoscopes.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Peace,

I believe the key of Solomon is authored by Satan himself.

Nope. Satan never wrote a book. Niether did God. All books on this earth have been written by human beings.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Have you read the key of Solomon? Read it and you'll know what I mean.

No I won't do your homework

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Well Tarot is based on that. Freemasons hold the two books which Jews don't believe is from Solomon, to be Solomon's work. Key of Solomon is studied by freemasons and they brought the tarot system based on it and another book that I forget the name right now.

And what on earth does that have to do with your claim that people in pre-islam arabia worshipped satan?

 

[Augustus]

When did Arabia ever worship Satan? My understanding is that before Islam, Arabia was polytheistic. I don't think they even believed in Satan at that time.

At the dawn of Islam it was largely monotheistic.

Polytheistic inscriptions seem to die out around the 3rd C in most parts (iirc).

It’s also quite clear that the audience of the Quran is expected to be familiar with the Abrahamic traditions.

The idea it emerged in a largely pagan culture is increasingly unlikely, although there may have been pockets of paganism alongside monotheistic societies.

Modern epigraphic studies overwhelmingly find monotheistic inscriptions for allah, ar-raheem, etc

Not Satan though

 

[Augustus]

Muslims say that the Quran is the same today as it has always been. However, I question this. From what I understand, during the very early history of Islam, one of the caliphs, Uthman, had all the copies of the Quran destroyed so that way new copies would be made that were standardized. Apparently this was because there were varying readings of the Quran due to the lack of diacritical marks. So anyway, how are we supposed to know that the new one that was issued was the same as the one that Muhammad supposedly received from the angel?

It’s a fairly modern idea.

Muslim scholars have discussed variant versions of the Quran throughout Islamic history.

There are even traditions about companions who rejected the Uthmanic version.

Some early manuscripts don’t quite match the canonical text either, but could be scribal errors.

Even the dome of the rock has a “not quite canonical” verse written on it.

Differences are fairly minor though, and most of the evidence suggests a fairly standardised version fairly close to Muhammad’s life.

The idea and importance it has remained absolutely unchanged in any way and we know how Muhammad recited it exactly is a modern trope though.

More interesting is the fact that early exegetes clearly have no idea how to interpret certain passages though, which shows there was a degree of loss between the generations.

 

[paarsurrey]

Quran was not written or authored by Muhammad. ‎It was revealed word for word on the heart of Muhammad and from him his companions ‎learnt it by heart, and it was the Primary Security Method of Quran, right?

It is only a Secondary Security Method that it was also committed to ‎writing immediately, right?

The method of learning/committing to heart from person to person still continues, right?
It ‎started from Muhammad and continues to date, right?
As Muhammad received Quran from God Allah ‎YHWH, he let his companions know of it and it was immediately committed to memory ‎by his companions.

Right?, @ZooGirl02 !

Regards

Kindly note following points about Quran, please:

1. The Revelation of Quran was received and completed in 23 years of the ministry of Muhammad,
2. and primarily committed to memory by the Muslims
3. only as a secondary measure it was also written down by the scribes as dictated to them by Muhammad.
4. Quran is a systematic Verbal Revelation,
5. learnt by heart, as a sentence or more were revealed on Muhammad by G-d.
6. Muhammad himself committed this Revelation to his memory and from him his companions did.
7. And this system continues forth unimpaired till our times
8. and the system is intact, to be continued for future also.
9. Quran was never a written book sent down literally by G-d from the skies.
10. So primarily Quran is a Verbal Revelation as the word “Quran” suggests means and conveys.
11. It is however the genius of Muhammad (peace be upon him),
12. though he was himself not well-versed in reading and/or writing,
13. yet he felt the importance of writing in the times to come in the world
14. so side by side as an auxiliary or secondary measure, never as the original in the first place
15. he also did whatever was possible to record this revelation in writing
16. so that both always existed supporting one another.
17. It is another meaning, that this Verbal Revelation, having a system in it, in a would-be sense committed to writing was also called a book.

Anybody could go to any mosque in any part of the world to whatever denomination of Muslims, ask for Qari or Hafiz- e- Quran there, he would recite verbally the Quran in Arabic, that would be the same as the written one.
Easy to verify the system of preservation of Quran.
Hope, every body understand, right?

Regards

 

[Link]

And what on earth does that have to do with your claim that people in pre-islam arabia worshipped satan?

Go back to the original words. I made an analogy, that people in tarot cards have heard of Satan, the book "key of Solomon" is basically demonology and relying on demons for magic.

They do it despite knowing better. Arabs did not tell themselves they worshiped Satan, but they believed their Jinn who they saw as gods, and had similarly Kahens and soothsayer type people and magic. They knew better since they too heard of Satan from Jews and Christians.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Go back to the original words. I made an analogy, that people in tarot cards have heard of Satan, the book "key of Solomon" is basically demonology and relying on demons for magic.

They do it despite knowing better. Arabs did not tell themselves they worshiped Satan, but they believed their Jinn who they saw as gods, and had similarly Kahens and soothsayer type people and magic. They knew better since they too heard of Satan from Jews and Christians.

I don't care for your irrelevant analogies.

You made a claim about pre-islam arabians.
I'm asking for evidence of that claim.

I'm not asking for "analogies".

I'm asking for actual evidence in support of the claim that you made.

 

[Link]

I don't care for your irrelevant analogies.

You made a claim about pre-islam arabians.
I'm asking for evidence of that claim.

I'm not asking for "analogies".

I'm asking for actual evidence in support of the claim that you made.

You are looking for why type evidence, hadith type that says about them? I can post some.

Otherwise, we really were debating about how people can worship Satan without thinking he is evil and the Satan described in holy books as far as their outward religion goes. This is what we were originally talking about.

 

[lukethethird]

Muslims say that the Quran is the same today as it has always been. However, I question this. From what I understand, during the very early history of Islam, one of the caliphs, Uthman, had all the copies of the Quran destroyed so that way new copies would be made that were standardized. Apparently this was because there were varying readings of the Quran due to the lack of diacritical marks. So anyway, how are we supposed to know that the new one that was issued was the same as the one that Muhammad supposedly received from the angel?

Because angels.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

You are looking for why type evidence, hadith type that says about them? I can post some.

That would be the claims that you are simply repeating.
Do you know what "evidence" is?

I guess not.....

Otherwise, we really were debating about how people can worship Satan without thinking he is evil and the Satan described in holy books as far as their outward religion goes. This is what we were originally talking about.

Ok.

Allah is Satan masquarading as God to keep you folks away from Christianity.
Muslims might deny it, but yeah, Allah is just Satan pretending to be God and deceived Muhammed into worshipping a false god.

If you can make empty claims like that, so can I.

 

[Link]

That would be the claims that you are simply repeating.
Do you know what "evidence" is?

I guess not.....


Ok.

Allah is Satan masquarading as God to keep you folks away from Christianity.
Muslims might deny it, but yeah, Allah is just Satan pretending to be God and deceived Muhammed into worshipping a false god.

If you can make empty claims like that, so can I.

If Quran is not a miracle and proof from God as Christians believes it's not, then it would be correct (their claim). The "from" is taken out of most translations, but Quran does argue taking guides/leaders/helpers spiritually that are from other than God to be from Satan and his forces.

If Mohammad (s) is not from God, then it's evil to follow him and it would lead to not God, but Satanic possession. Muslims believe that which is why they are harsh towards following fake Prophets after Mohammad (s).

Polytheists believe in God but worship Satan with him. Their direction is running from God though part of their outward theology acknowledges the Creator.

Quran is trying to wake them up from the wrong forces.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

If Quran is not a miracle and proof from God as Christians believes it's not, then it would be correct (their claim). The "from" is taken out of most translations, but Quran does argue taking guides/leaders/helpers spiritually that are from other than God to be from Satan and his forces.

If Mohammad (s) is not from God, then it's evil to follow him and it would lead to not God, but Satanic possession. Muslims believe that which is why they are harsh towards following fake Prophets after Mohammad (s).

Polytheists believe in God but worship Satan with him. Their direction is running from God though part of their outward theology acknowledges the Creator.

Quran is trying to wake them up from the wrong forces.

Yes, this is exactly what Satan would do to trick you into a worshipping a false god.

 

[Link]

Yes, this is exactly what Satan would do to trick you into a worshipping a false god.

Yes, God could only be worshipped through a true connection to him, a connection by truth from truth towards truth.