How do Pagans feel about Christians and Why?

[Sees]

No, Everchanging is right; Augustine never caught on in the Eastern church the way he did in the West.

I see it pretty plainly on here http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7063

"Original Sin" might not be used, yet it is still supportive of the concept and still teaching the same core narrative...with other stuff dressed around it.

What would really be the foundation for it, if not this?

 

[EverChanging]

No, Everchanging is right; Augustine never caught on in the Eastern church the way he did in the West.

Right. And Catholic doctrine doesn't entail that human nature itself is sinful. It is still inherently good and capable of divinization. And atonement theology is only one of at least five traditional interpretations of Jesus' death.

Orthodox theology also says we are good and may participate in the divine nature. The Fall is an explanation of evil in the world but since they do not teach original sin we are not guilty of the first parents' sin. In Catholicism we aren't guilty of that sin in the same way we are guilty of sins we actually commit, thus the distinction between original and actual guilt.

If one's experience is limited to fundamentalism then I can see where these impressions come from but fundamentalism is modern and only one strand of the Christian religion(s).

I have my own idiosyncratic take on all this stuff. We see that in the early Jesus movement too with a proliferation of gospels with varying theologies, hundreds of them.

 

[Politesse]

Of course, this the Paganism DIR. But yes, the history is a lot more complex than most folks realize. And very much interlaced with the growth and reinvention of Paganism, if one looks at for instance alchemy and what it gave us.

 

[Baladas]

Original sin as taught in Catholicism does not entail the notion that human nature is bad. Of course sects differ. The Eastern Christians have no concept of original sin. My point here is there isn't just one Christianity.

Ah, I didn't realize that about Catholicism. At any rate, I understood that you were saying there is more than one Christianity.
I agree, there are many.

None that I agree with, but there are many.

 

[Cassandra]

Original sin as taught in Catholicism does not entail the notion that human nature is bad. Of course sects differ. The Eastern Christians have no concept of original sin. My point here is there isn't just one Christianity.

So there we are again discussing Christianity on a Pagan forum. Which was of course the purpose to begin with. Because forums are the grounds on which religious predators prey.

My view:

Of course Christianity has to be made to look better. Being raised a Christian I know you are talking nonsense here... Maybe this is American Christianity, they say anything there provided it sells. Not that it is not a common habit of all converters to tell lies to people they want to convert. Being honest is not one of the ten commandments. A Christian only has to be honest when he brings witness against a fellow Christian in a court of law. That is why they let him swear on the bible. Not that that guarantees anything, he can always ask forgiveness later. He can always "confess his sins". O God, I sinned! Forgive me please!

The whole centerpiece of Christianity is that God is only good. That automatically puts all the burden for evil on man. The idea is that man is evil and can only be saved by turning to God/Jesus, otherwise he is doomed. That is why a Pagan goes to hell, because he does not accept Jesus. Forgiving the original sin is the mercy that Jesus is supposed to bring. That is the drug they sell, forgiveness for sins. That is why do their best to make people feel guilty. The guilt creates a need for forgiveness.

Which brings us to the number one reason to dislike Christianity, which is their conversion practices. They never stop undermining traditions from others. Why you may ask? Is it the religious zealousness. Sure, the sexual abstention creates extra religious fever people early discovered. That is why closet homosexuals are often the most zealous preachers. But in the end it is simply money. Religion is trillion dollar business. It is so profitable that they want to expand their business. That is why these personal salesmen are sent to all corners of the earth. A small cult like the Mormons, make $5 bln clean profit every year.

That is why Christians will tell any lie to convert people. And like all good salesmen they know that the most successful salesman is the one that looks most like his prey. If you go selling to farmers, you dress and talk like a farmer. If you sell to Pagans you dress and talk like a Pagan. In India Christians will present themselves as Hindus. In Arab countries God is called Allah. It is only after conversion when people are more indoctrinated in the bible that they rectify that. It is lying business.

We should not be surprised. Religion has been a commercial business for thousands of years. The flock believe in it, they have to believe in it, otherwise they will not pay for their afterlife insurance, while accepting all the suffering that the elite put on their shoulders. Sure the leaders believe in the good life, they live handsomely on the gullibility of others. Like that German bishop that gave his a house makeover for 40 million euro. But you will not find American church leaders living in campers either. Hey, we are not Jesus, we keep that ideal for converted losers so we have cheap personnel that go preaching for no pay.

What has Christianity to do with real religion like Paganism? These mass religions are the perversion of original spirituality, often the opposite. But people believe in it, just like they believe they believe in all these lying businessmen and politicians too.

 

[Katzpur]

A small cult like the Mormons, make $5 bln clean profit every year.

You know, when you make outlandish statements like this, you really come across an uninformed. It makes me question pretty much everything else you've said.

 

[Cassandra]

You know, when you make outlandish statements like this, you really come across an uninformed. It makes me question pretty much everything else you've said.

Pagans should ask themselves: How come these non-pagans read everything we write here, and often react within minutes?

Do I know what is written by Christians or Mormons in their own forums? No I do not give a hood about what these people write and I do not seek their company. Nor do I bother them with my Pagan ideas. Live and let live. But they do not even allow us to think aloud in our own company. They snoop and then cry: You insult our religion. Well that should not be a surprise, your religion is no religion too me. To me is mainly a source of suffering for everyone else. Do not expect gratitude for all your crimes. If you want to be a Nazi, do not be surprised the victims do not like your ideology. That you do all these immoral things for your God fantasy does not impress me in the least, as I do not share them.

So why do Christians and Mormons react immediately? A good salesman is always on the lookout. Religious predators are always snooping in Always ready to lure people into discussion about their belief. Young Mormons too are send into the world to expand business. It is a duty. Their God " wants to save peoples should too" (By the way their founder was a certified conman was convicted for that). Why an all powerful God can not do it himself, is something they never ponder about. Why they have to do all this lying and cheating? But then they are told they are Gods instrument, and it is really God that does all the dirty work, yes " he moves in mysterious ways".

As a Pagan I do not believe such things. I can explain it much more simple.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

So there we are again discussing Christianity on a Pagan forum. Which was of course the purpose to begin with. Because forums are the grounds on which religious predators prey.

My view:

Of course Christianity has to be made to look better. Being raised a Christian I know you are talking nonsense here... Maybe this is American Christianity, they say anything there provided it sells. Not that it is not a common habit of all converters to tell lies to people they want to convert. Being honest is not one of the ten commandments. A Christian only has to be honest when he brings witness against a fellow Christian in a court of law. That is why they let him swear on the bible. Not that that guarantees anything, he can always ask forgiveness later. He can always "confess his sins". O God, I sinned! Forgive me please!

The whole centerpiece of Christianity is that God is only good. That automatically puts all the burden for evil on man. The idea is that man is evil and can only be saved by turning to God/Jesus, otherwise he is doomed. That is why a Pagan goes to hell, because he does not accept Jesus. Forgiving the original sin is the mercy that Jesus is supposed to bring. That is the drug they sell, forgiveness for sins. That is why do their best to make people feel guilty. The guilt creates a need for forgiveness.

Which brings us to the number one reason to dislike Christianity, which is their conversion practices. They never stop undermining traditions from others. Why you may ask? Is it the religious zealousness. Sure, the sexual abstention creates extra religious fever people early discovered. That is why closet homosexuals are often the most zealous preachers. But in the end it is simply money. Religion is trillion dollar business. It is so profitable that they want to expand their business. That is why these personal salesmen are sent to all corners of the earth. A small cult like the Mormons, make $5 bln clean profit every year.

That is why Christians will tell any lie to convert people. And like all good salesmen they know that the most successful salesman is the one that looks most like his prey. If you go selling to farmers, you dress and talk like a farmer. If you sell to Pagans you dress and talk like a Pagan. In India Christians will present themselves as Hindus. In Arab countries God is called Allah. It is only after conversion when people are more indoctrinated in the bible that they rectify that. It is lying business.

We should not be surprised. Religion has been a commercial business for thousands of years. The flock believe in it, they have to believe in it, otherwise they will not pay for their afterlife insurance, while accepting all the suffering that the elite put on their shoulders. Sure the leaders believe in the good life, they live handsomely on the gullibility of others. Like that German bishop that gave his a house makeover for 40 million euro. But you will not find American church leaders living in campers either. Hey, we are not Jesus, we keep that ideal for converted losers so we have cheap personnel that go preaching for no pay.

What has Christianity to do with real religion like Paganism? These mass religions are the perversion of original spirituality, often the opposite. But people believe in it, just like they believe they believe in all these lying businessmen and politicians too.

Pagans should ask themselves: How come these non-pagans read everything we write here, and often react within minutes?

Do I know what is written by Christians or Mormons in their own forums? No I do not give a hood about what these people write and I do not seek their company. Nor do I bother them with my Pagan ideas. Live and let live. But they do not even allow us to think aloud in our own company. They snoop and then cry: You insult our religion. Well that should not be a surprise, your religion is no religion too me. To me is mainly a source of suffering for everyone else. Do not expect gratitude for all your crimes. If you want to be a Nazi, do not be surprised the victims do not like Nazi. That you do all these immoral things for your God fantasy does not impress me in the least, as I do not share them.

So why do Christians and Mormons react immediately? A good salesman is always on the lookout. Religious predators are always snooping around. Always ready to lure people into discussion about their belief. Young Mormons too are send into the world to expand business. It is a duty. Their God wants to save people. Why an all powerful God can not do it himself, is something they never ponder about. Why they have to do all this lying and cheating? But then they are told they are Gods instrument, and it is really God that does all the dirty work, yes " he moves in mysterious ways".

As a Pagan I do not believe such things. I can explain it much more simple.

We get it: you hate Christians and Christianity. Every time I see one of your posts, it's another hateful rant that's full of bile. I suggest that you work out your internal issues with Christianity, that you apparently have never gotten over, because this isn't a forum for you to air out your rage against your former religion. You're being like the pagan version of the angry, bitter atheist stereotype.

 

[Cassandra]

We get it: you hate Christians and Christianity. Every time I see one of your posts, it's another hateful rant that's full of bile. I suggest that you work out your internal issues with Christianity, that you've apparently have never gotten over, because this isn't a forum for you to air out your rage against your former religion. You're being like the pagan version of the angry, bitter atheist stereotype.

Hate, hate, hate. Why are Christians always perceiving a no nonsense view of Christianity as hate? Answer: because their God said he is hated and his disciples would be hated by the word for believing in him. That idea is deeply ingrained. We are the victims, the martyrs.

Yes, that is the advantage of reading their book. You start to understand what makes them tick. What delusions they live in and allow them to act so unethically and still believe they are their gods finest. because the live in delusions.

Writing these things does not even raise my heartbeat. I am a Pagan, I do not deal in black and white, in good and evil. Christianity is not the ultimate evil for me. I am not fighting a cosmic war. For me, It is part of nature to have snakes and hyenas and all kind of treacherous animals too. There is no reason to hate them, just wise to stay away from them. But to do so we should be aware of the nature of this beast. And to understand that it is wise to look how it acted throughout history.

For a Pagan everything is about actions/behavior, not about beliefs. But to understand the Christian animal one needs to understand his beliefs, because he acts out his beliefs. He lives in a completely different world, a fantasy world, in which he is the servant of a glorious but ruthless creature he calls God. Yes when you enter the asylum, it is no longer enough to understand normal human behavior based in the senses, one has to understand what the ideas drive the madmen. Because in these people ideas grow out to obsessions more real than what theirs senses tell them. The same with fundamentalists and obsessive convictions

They have never seen a "soul", but they believe in a soul. So much that in their fantasy they need to "save that soul". They have to save that invisible entity. A whole fantasy world is spun around such abstract fantasies. It can not be disproved as it is non-existent and we can only prove existence and not non-existence.

I do not hate you, I am absolutely fascinated by the human mind and its ability to live in illusions. Okay religious predators are a pest, but they are pest that belongs to a society that has turned everything into commerce. It is business. Business used to be almost the same as war. Nowadays we try to keep those things apart, but it still leads to wars when the interests are big enough. Religious business is just a special case.

You call that hate because, from within you delusion, people that do not buy the holy gospel (for me crap) are labeled as enemies. You say I hate your God, but to me he is no more real than Donald Duck. If there was a historical Jesus, I suspect he was more like a real Jewish Messiah, a rebel who wanted to fight the Romans, was betrayed and sentenced by the Romans. That makes sense, Anyone who is free of indoctrination can see that. Yes poor Jesus. But the son of God who is God? No there are easier explanations for that.

I can say that here because this is a Pagan forum. I would never do that on a Christian forum, because that would hurt those people. And I do not want to hurt them. But here it only irritates the Christians who pretend to be Pagans. Well that is their own fault, they should mind their own business, like I do. Because Christian Pagan or Pagan Christian that is something like Nazi Jew or a Jewish Nazi.

 

[Katzpur]

Pagans should ask themselves: How come these non-pagans read everything we write here, and often react within minutes?

I've come to really admire the pagans I've met on RF over the years. Most of them are incredibly non-judgmental and open-minded. But apparently, as in all religions, there are a few who seem determined to make the others look bad.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Hate, hate, hate. Why are Christians always perceiving a no nonsense view of Christianity as hate? Answer: because their God said he is hated and his disciples would be hated by the word for believing in him. That idea is deeply ingrained. We are the victims, the martyrs.

Yes, that is the advantage of reading their book. You start to understand what makes them tick. What delusions they live in and allow them to act so unethically and still believe they are their gods finest. because the live in delusions.

Writing these things does not even raise my heartbeat. I am a Pagan, I do not deal in black and white, in good and evil. Christianity is not the ultimate evil for me. I am not fighting a cosmic war. For me, It is part of nature to have snakes and hyenas and all kind of treacherous animals too. There is no reason to hate them, just wise to stay away from them. But to do so we should be aware of the nature of this beast. And to understand that it is wise to look how it acted throughout history.

For a Pagan everything is about actions/behavior, not about beliefs. But to understand the Christian animal one needs to understand his beliefs, because he acts out his beliefs. He lives in a completely different world, a fantasy world, in which he is the servant of a glorious but ruthless creature he calls God. Yes when you enter the asylum, it is no longer enough to understand normal human behavior based in the senses, one has to understand what the ideas drive the madmen. Because in these people ideas grow out to obsessions more real than what theirs senses tell them. The same with fundamentalists and obsessive convictions

They have never seen a "soul", but they believe in a soul. So much that in their fantasy they need to "save that soul". They have to save that invisible entity. A whole fantasy world is spun around such abstract fantasies. It can not be disproved as it is non-existent and we can only prove existence and not non-existence.

I do not hate you, I am absolutely fascinated by the human mind and its ability to live in illusions. Okay religious predators are a pest, but they are pest that belongs to a society that has turned everything into commerce. It is business. Business used to be almost the same as war. Nowadays we try to keep those things apart, but it still leads to wars when the interests are big enough. Religious business is just a special case.

You call that hate because, from within you delusion, people that do not buy the holy gospel (for me crap) are labeled as enemies. You say I hate your God, but to me he is no more real than Donald Duck. If there was a historical Jesus, I suspect he was more like a real Jewish Messiah, a rebel who wanted to fight the Romans, was betrayed and sentenced by the Romans. That makes sense, Anyone who is free of indoctrination can see that. Yes poor Jesus. But the son of God who is God? No there are easier explanations for that.

I can say that here because this is a Pagan forum. I would never do that on a Christian forum, because that would hurt those people. And I do not want to hurt them. But here it only irritates the Christians who pretend to be Pagans. Well that is their own fault, they should mind their own business, like I do. Because Christian Pagan or Pagan Christian that is something like Nazi Jew or a Jewish Nazi.

I'm not a Christian.

 

[Cassandra]

I've come to really admire the pagans I've met on RF over the years. Most of them are incredibly non-judgmental and open-minded. But apparently, as in all religions, there are a few who seem determined to make the others look bad.

Pagans celebrate diversity.

By the way a clever attempt to create division. That is the standard tactic of Christians when mingling among their enemies. That is why Jesus says: " I did not come to bring peace, but division and the sword". By converting part of the people (often criminals and poor people that can easily be bribed) and turning them against the rest, they weaken their enemies. That is how Cortex and Pizarro did it too. It is all in the bible, just read it. Missionaries are simply another word for Roman spies, send ahead to collect information and weaken the enemy. They were clever guys these Romans.

Do not waste too much energy here my friend. Concentrate on atheists and Muslims. Especially Muslims learned a great deal, they are now using the same tactics. They are your real adversaries. They are in the same business.

 

[Katzpur]

Pagans celebrate diversity.

But from what you say, it really doesn't sound like that's the case at all. You paint all Christians with the same wide, negative brush. We're actually a pretty diverse group ourselves. I'm sorry that your experience with Christians has been so negative.

Do not waste to much energy here my friend.

Not to worry, Cassandra. I haven't said anything that's taken much energy, nor do I intend to. Just try not to hate Christians so much. You'll be much happier if you can learn to live and let live.

Concentrate on atheists and Muslims.... They are your real adversaries.

Nobody is my adversary because their beliefs differ from mine. If you are my adversary, that's because you choose to hate me, not the other way around.

 

[Cassandra]

I'm not a Christian.

I can not say what anyone is with any certainty here

Christians can say anything. Remember that Jesus said that Peter was the only one that truly understood him? That he was the foundation stone on which he would build his church. Peter was the guy that denied three times he knew Jesus. So Jesus build his church on the guy that lied and betrayed him, and said that guy was the best of all.

Understand how free this makes bible knowing Christians to lie. For the sake of spreading the faith anything is allowed. Jesus instructs his missionaries: Be innocent like doves and cunning like snakes. And there is no commandment that forbids lying, only false testimony against a neighbor in a court of law.

So what people say about themselves on the Internet about their Christianity means little to me. You may be a real Pagan or a fake one, I could not tell the difference. Christians always deceived Pagans, that's how they managed to destroy them.

Did you ever wonder why the Mafia are such devoted Catholics?

 

[Cassandra]

But from what you say, it really doesn't sound like that's the case at all. You paint all Christians with the same wide, negative brush. We're actually a pretty diverse group ourselves. I'm sorry that your experience with Christians has been so negative.

Not to worry, Cassandra. I haven't said anything that's taken much energy, nor do I intend to. Just try not to hate Christians so much. You'll be much happier if you can learn to live and let live.

Well I do celebrate diversity. I do not want to put people who do not agree with me on a fire pyre, I am no Christian. Most Christians are only name-christians whose ancestors were forced into belief, but it hardly plays a role in their life. Except that they are inclined to look the other way when the enemies of the faith are being butchered because they are made to fear them.

Even the zealous Christians are to a degree victims. You can not fully hold someone responsible that is brainwashed. We have seen what a brainwash can do to people and you do not need a God in the mix.

You think I hate you because in Christianity their is nothing between friend an foe. Jesus himself says: Those are not with us are against us. You either lick his boots and worship him or go to hell. And those that reject him, hate him and his followers, he says. And Christians believe everything their God says, they can only believe people that reject Jesus hate him and his followers. It is part of the belief.

You tell me: which Christian church preaches that people who reject Jesus still go to heaven?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I can not say what anyone is with any certainty here

Christians can say anything. Remember that Jesus said that Peter was the only one that truly understood him? That he was the foundation stone on which he would build his church. Peter was the guy that denied three times he knew Jesus. So Jesus build his church on the guys that lied and betrayed, and said that guy was the best of all.

Understand how free this makes bible knowing Christians to lie. For the sake of spreading the faith anything is allowed. Jesus instructs his missionaries: Be innocent like doves and cunning like snakes. And there is no commandment that forbids lying, only false testament against a neighbor in court of law.

So what people say about themselves on the Internet means little to me. You may be a real Pagan or a fake one, I could not tell the difference. Christians always deceived Pagans, that's how they managed to destroy them.

Did you ever wonder why the Mafia are such devoted Catholics?

Have fun with that paranoia.

 

[Politesse]

A great many of us belong to both traditions. This is a DIR, but it is not a place to just spew hatred, bigotry, and lies, especially not against your fellow, if syncretic, Pagans.

 

[Cassandra]

Have fun with that paranoia.

I always find it a pity if people revert to personal attacks when they are out of arguments. You may not like my views on your God and religion, but Pagans are not restricted to political correct opinions by doctrine.

And remember it is not me who started this thread bringing Christianity again to a Pagan forum. Yes not all Pagans are Universalists who want to love all, even or especially the ones that have hurt them, their ancestors and their traditions. I find that rather unnatural. I have never desired to be a Saint. I find most Saints complete hypocrites.

If Jesus wants to have himself tortured because it is his "passion", I find that idea pretty revolting. Because I am Pagan does not mean that I will embrace sadomasochist cults. Sure Pagans have their own nutcases as well who create similar dangerous cults. Not all things Pagan are healthy. If you study Hinduism you will find that the people on both sides are Hindus.

Yes Christians are part of Nature too, They are not the devil Pagans need to root out. They are just nasty and destructive. Jesus wants to rule the world. He and his followers want to make the whole world subject to their doctrine, just like Adolf ans his followers (also Christians by the way). I do not like that.

But hate? Christian Nazis also said the Jews hated them, that they wanted to destroy them. But look who put who in the oven and burned them?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I always find it a pity if people revert to personal attacks when they are out of arguments. You may not like my views on your God and religion, but Pagans are not restricted to political correct opinions by doctrine.

And remember it is not me who started this thread bringing Christianity again to a Pagan forum. Yes not all Pagans are Universalists want to love all, even or especially the ones that have hurt them, their ancestors and their traditions. I find that rather unnatural. I have never desired to be a Saint. I find most Saints complete hypocrites.

If Jesus wants to have himself tortured because it is his "passion", I find that idea pretty revolting. Because I am Pagan does not mean that I will embrace sadomasochist cults. Sure Pagans have their own nutcases as well who create similar dangerous cults. Not all things Pagan are healthy. If you study Hinduism you will find that the people on both sides are Hindus.

Yes Christians are part of Nature too, They are not the devil Pagans need to root out. They are just nasty and destructive. They want to rule the world. They want to make the whole world subject to their doctrine, just like Adolf. I do not like that.

I already said I'm not a Christian, so you can stop with your blatantly wrong assumptions. You can go on hating and rambling. Hate is hate. Yours is no different.

 

[Katzpur]

Jesus himself says: Those are not with us are against us. You either lick his boots and worship him or go to hell.

And yet elsewhere, He says: "Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us." (Luke 9:50)

You tell me: which Christian church preaches that people who reject Jesus still go to heaven?

Mine.