Sleeppy
Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
They are not free. Each option, or potential choice, has a very specific price that must be paid, in order to be admitted into existence.
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How do you exactly define 'free will'?
- Thread starter Renji
- Start date
They are not free. Each option, or potential choice, has a very specific price that must be paid, in order to be admitted into existence.
Is there free will in choosing to pay the price in order for the option to exist?
Or rather is there any condition you feel free will might actually exist?
Sleeppy
Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
No. There is only the illusion that the will is made freely, or independent of God.
I don't believe God has free will, either. He must act according to who He is, and therefore can not be altered or changed.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
As a martial artist....muscle memory is not a simple topic.
I have trained to respond as my sense of pain directs.
Some people call that reflex.
I do not.
And neither would the law.
No judge will allow that I might do harm and not be held accountable.
Drinking from a cup is not muscle memory.
Routine is a word not being applied in this thread and should be.
Driving to work while drinking coffee is not reflex (muscle memory).
You cause an accident.....it's your fault.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
Does that include walking on water and raising the dead?
Skillfulness is another matter. Yes.
Sleeppy
Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
If it is natural for you.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
Then to say....freewill is natural?
Sleeppy
Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
The illusion is natural, due to limited human perception, and being confined within spacetime.
Actually I agree with this. Nothing is independent of God. The perception of independence is illusion.
You don't think God could create a different universe with a different set of laws?
Sleeppy
Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
I don't have a problem with believing there may be a multiverse, and that each universe has its variations with physical laws.. But when I entertain that idea, I still maintain that each of these universes stem from one Source. Obviously that source would be God, for me. So while I may believe that certain physical laws can be changed and manipulated, even in our own universe- I do not believe the foundational laws which produce(d) these universes can change. I would equate these foundational laws and original sources of information/powers with God.
And we're both aware that I'm a miniscule part of our observable universe, so anything I say concerning other universes can only be founded within this particular universe. We can never be sure.
Sleeppy
Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
I guess what I'm saying is: I don't believe "time" or movement is anything but an illusion resulting from limited perception.. With God, I believe everything is static. Everything God has done, or will do, is already done. God knows all things, past, present and future, because all things are of God. We are within spacetime. We traverse space and time, whereas God encompasses reality.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
You do realize you are creating a hall of mirrors?...leading nowhere.
Sleeppy
Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
If you admit that time is an illusion, how are you also arguing that free will (which requires time to materialize) is anything but an illusion, as well?-- I don't know what you mean by the hall of mirrors.
Midnight Rain
Well-Known Member
I define it as potential. There is potential for several different things. I have the potential for example do do whatever I want that is physically possible. However I will only take a certain path. What path I have out of those potentials will be realized and I have the personal control to direct the fulfillment of different potentials. That to me is free will.
"When each moment becomes an expectation life is deprived of fulfillment, and death is dreaded for it seems that here expectation must come to an end. While there is life there is hope--and if one lives on hope, death is indeed the end. But to the undivided mind, death is another moment, complete like every moment, and cannot yield its secret unless lived to the full--
And I laid me down with a will."
(Alan Watts, The Wisdom of Insecurity)
And I laid me down with a will."
(Alan Watts, The Wisdom of Insecurity)
Thief
Rogue Theologian
Time is a measurement....altogether cognitive.
A quotient on the chalkboard at best.
It would be better to say.....willfulness takes a thought or a feeling.....
Then the hand responds.
Movement is real enough.
Sleeppy
Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
Time is a measurement of what? How is it an illusion? Do you know what spacetime is? Movement is "real enough"?
Again I mostly agree. However the "illusion" is our reality. Including the free will and space/time relationship.
Perception is our reality as a human being. Illusion or not. So we explore and explain the illusion. Because we rely on perception there is no precision in the explanations we come up with. What is important from the viewpoint as human is that the explanation about the reality we perceive is accurate enough to be successful.
Free will may not be the "true" reality but it is our reality.
People want precision, they are likely to end up thinking themselves into a corner. It's really only important that their thinking allows them to be successful.
Fatalism and determinism, there is no benefit to either belief. The truth of either is immaterial to being human. If our reality is illusion then illusion is our reality. To create and succeed is the only game. The true mechanics maybe forever beyond the reach of human beings.